Exception for ERAU Students ATP, only 1,000 hours

wabower said:
So your answer is no you haven't been involved in training them but you knew a guy who knew a guy?
Click to expand...
Not exactly sure how you got that from: "Well I myself have been through both of those training programs and have seen it!" I have been through sim sessions with newbies, military, and mainline pilots and seen struggles from all of them. I have seen noobs of all backgrounds fail out of initial airline sim training. I have trained others in turboprop aircraft. does my experiences being around the training enviroment and participating in it myself discredit my observations? Well apparently it does if I haven't sat in the back of a sim according to you-fine. You are right, I withdraw my observations.

wabower said:
I'll agree that it was different when the airlines could fill all their classes with ex-military guys and sims hadn't been invented, but neither condition currently exists. There's simply no substitute for training, and the earlier they start the better they'll be. Some will be better than others, but we already know that too.
Click to expand...
I didn't even say anything about ex-military or pre-sim days, heck I wasn't even around then :D.
I was referring to newer hire pilots that get their first jobs and make it through indoc, FTD, and sim training fine with no prior college sim prep, happens all the time. Does it help to get some training before going, hell ya it does. Their is no question that it is a good thing. The whole point of the thread was the fact that ERAU grads can get an ATP with less hours, IMHO a little sim prep and some college credits from professors (which some have no clue about aviation even at ERAU) does not make you more qualified. You will get all of that training when you get hired.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Ok, so as Capt Bob with 25,000hrs, why on earth would I fly with some random dude off the street for 25-50 a hour, mess my schedule up just so you can get your PPL, I also get to have the risk of you F'ing up under my name and messing up everything i have built in my career, what possible incentive would I have to do that??
Click to expand...

Why would you do that with 500 hours and risk killing your career aspirations early on?
 
What do you think the guy/gal who's "sitting in the back of a sim" is doing during all those sessions?

flyingmoose said:
Not exactly sure how you got that from: "Well I myself have been through both of those training programs and have seen it!" I have been through sim sessions with newbies, military, and mainline pilots and seen struggles from all of them. I have seen noobs of all backgrounds fail out of initial airline sim training. I have trained others in turboprop aircraft. does my experiences being around the training enviroment and participating in it myself discredit my observations? Well apparently it does if I haven't sat in the back of a sim according to you-fine. You are right, I withdraw my observations.


I didn't even say anything about ex-military or pre-sim days, heck I wasn't even around then :D.
I was referring to newer hire pilots that get their first jobs and make it through indoc, FTD, and sim training fine with no prior college sim prep, happens all the time. Does it help to get some training before going, hell ya it does. Their is no question that it is a good thing. The whole point of the thread was the fact that ERAU grads can get an ATP with less hours, IMHO a little sim prep and some college credits from professors (which some have no clue about aviation even at ERAU) does not make you more qualified. You will get all of that training when you get hired.
Click to expand...
 
Jean asked me to post this. Heh.

ymy8ener.jpg
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Why not? Sims give you better training because you can do more things in a given time slot, not to mention stuff you can't do in an airplane.

Having said that, it has to be the right sim with the right sim instructor.
Click to expand...
AMEN.
 
EdFred said:
Why would you do that with 500 hours and risk killing your career aspirations early on?
Click to expand...

It sounds like a few guys here don't really grasp how this industry works, has worked and will probably continue to work.

That ERU thing is more marketing then anything else

And as for the CFI thing, I'm not even going to comment.
 
ClimbnSink said:
It ain't going to work that way. Take away CFI PIC time counting for the 1,500 and the progression will change to banner towing up and down the same beach for 1,500 hours or flying jump planes up and down over the same airport. CFIing(outside of a college flight program) is more real world experience then most of the other low time flying jobs. Not counting that time is not going to change the market or wannabe pros ability to gain experience, no one is going to say poor kid your CFI time won't count, here fly my Kingair a couple of laps around the country.
Click to expand...

at the very least, it would throw some chlorine in the CFI pool. I made one flight with a CFI "building time". Won't be doing that again.
 
bartmc said:
at the very least, it would throw some chlorine in the CFI pool. I made one flight with a CFI "building time". Won't be doing that again.
Click to expand...

Be sure to weed out any CFI who doesnt fly for a living, the old guy "has been" type, any CFI who has their hands on the controls very much, any CFI who cant land power off, any CFI who is afraid of spins or falling leaf stalls, any CFI who is more concerned with quoting FARs then pilotage and stick and rudder, any CFI who didn't do their initial with the FSDO, any CFI with under 100hrs of IMC, any CFI who hasnt had at least 1 full (as in 0 power) engine failure, any CFI who didn't learn how to fly in a taildragger and any non-gold seal CFI.

NOW let's do some supply and demand on what you have left after your chlorine, think I'd raise my rate to $120hr air, $85hr ground.... and you'd pay it, or you ain't learning how to fly.

Good news bet microsoft flight sim sales would go up :)
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Be sure to weed out any CFI who doesnt fly for a living, the old guy "has been" type, any CFI who has their hands on the controls very much, any CFI who cant land power off, any CFI who is afraid of spins or falling leaf stalls, any CFI who is more concerned with quoting FARs then pilotage and stick and rudder, any CFI who didn't do their initial with the FSDO, any CFI with under 100hrs of IMC, any CFI who hasnt had at least 1 full (as in 0 power) engine failure, any CFI who didn't learn how to fly in a taildragger and any non-gold seal CFI.

NOW let's do some supply and demand on what you have left after your chlorine, think I'd raise my rate to $120hr air, $85hr ground.... and you'd pay it, or you ain't learning how to fly.

Good news bet microsoft flight sim sales would go up :)
Click to expand...

The old "has beens" are who I seek out. Last one I flew with, did it for free. Come to think of it, I don't think I've paid my last 3 CFIs anything, I went and bought a gift certificate at a really nice steak house for my last one, I knew he wouldn't take cash. If you ain't doing it for a job, let's talk. I'd pay 120/hr for a "teacher" at least as good as the has beens I ride with than $45/hr for a guy just trying to hitch a ride in the right seat on his way to flying cattle cars.
 
Last edited:
bartmc said:
The old "has beens" are who I seek out. Last one I flew with, did it for free. Come to think of it, I don't think I've paid my last 3 CFIs anything, I went and bought a gift certificate at a really nice steak house for my last one, I knew he wouldn't take cash. If you ain't doing it for a job, let's talk. I'd pay 120/hr for a "teacher" at least as good as the has beens I ride with than $45/hr for a guy just trying to hitch a ride in the right seat on his way to flying cattle cars.
Click to expand...


I've cleaned up the messes of some of those old hobby CFI (under 50hr a year) guys.

Guess you wouldnt want to fly with me, for me aviation is my craft, I'm not a airline guy, more specialty air service type of stuff, turbines to tailwheels, 100hrs a month, aviation provides me a nice life and I fly 6-7 days a week.

I like to keep one or two ab inito students, keeps me sharp, though they are normally friends or friends of friends, I charge (not much) 25ish or trade for something.

But for outside folks, if I took them on it'd be no less then $50hr cash, if they don't get "it" (see some eastern cultures), 75hr cash, but I'd probably just pass, not really worth it for me.
 
I'm sure it's no longer the case, but when I was at Purdue in the 90s, senior aviation students interviewed and were placed in regular rotation in the right seat of the school's KA90s and Beechjet. My roommate flew King Air missions several times per month, at all hours of the day and night. I was very ****ed about it because, as an AE, I was part of the Engineering school, and not eligible to apply. It seemed like pretty good 135 training to me. Not all of the aviation schools are paper mills, at least they weren't in the past.
 
Last edited:
gasfiltered said:
I'm sure it's no longer the case, but when I was at Purdue in the 90s, senior aviation students interviewed and were placed in regular rotation in the right seat of the school's KA90s and Beechjet. My roommate flew King Air missions several times per month, at all hours of the day and night. I was very ****ed about it because, as an AE, I was part of the Engineering school, and not eligible to apply. It seemed like pretty good 135 training to me. Not all of the aviation schools are paper mills, at least they weren't in the past.
Click to expand...

It's changed a little bit since, but students are still getting turbine time. They sold the KingAirs and bought a Phenom 100. Everyone in PFT goes through Phenom ground, a semester of Phenom sim, and about 10-15 hours of left seat time in the airplane. They hired a lot of good instructors with interesting backgrounds and it is, in my opinion, high quality turbine training. Much more comprehensive than any Part 142 type training I've been to.
 
What really needs to happen is for the airlines to create their own initial co-pilot training programs.

Earning a private, instrument, commercial, & cfi in a single engine airplane is not just a waste of money, resources, and valuable time, but is against the basic law of primacy.

When I say single engine, i really mean single pilot . All the solo time, and most of the training and checking time is devoted to single pilot decision making.

Airline pilots never make single pilot decisions. Besides the actual crew on board, company radio decisions are consulted, and the Captain makes decisions based on a slew of crew and company policies and directives of the moment.
Our "single pilot" mentality of initial training causes that to be a real problem.
Airline pilots are like military pilots who never operate in the single pilot operating on your own mentality.

Two different worlds. What a waste.
 
I took a young man with me on a P-n-P trip about a month ago and let him fly the second leg. He is an ERAU student, starting his junior year this fall, 120+ hours, instrument rated, complex and HP endorsements.

I was appalled at his lack of knowledge of...well...everything.

Every young pilot that I've flown with that's been trained at a local FBO with a similar amount of hours (and there have been quite a few that I've taken flying) have been light years ahead of this young man.

This is the first ERAU student that I've flown with and I couldn't help but to think...if this is the typical product being produced by ERAU then we're in deep ****.

If he's indicative, and I hope he's not, then ERAU grads should have 500 hours more...not 500 less.

(hope he's not here or I'll certainly be :redface: )
 
Last edited:
nosehair said:
What really needs to happen is for the airlines to create their own initial co-pilot training programs.

Earning a private, instrument, commercial, & cfi in a single engine airplane is not just a waste of money, resources, and valuable time, but is against the basic law of primacy.

When I say single engine, i really mean single pilot . All the solo time, and most of the training and checking time is devoted to single pilot decision making.

Airline pilots never make single pilot decisions. Besides the actual crew on board, company radio decisions are consulted, and the Captain makes decisions based on a slew of crew and company policies and directives of the moment.
Our "single pilot" mentality of initial training causes that to be a real problem.
Airline pilots are like military pilots who never operate in the single pilot operating on your own mentality.

Two different worlds. What a waste.
Click to expand...

How did that work for Air France or Asiana? A multi-crew only license is a terrible idea.
 
Reality is, it comes down to individual knowledge, skill, and performance. Competency based testing to qualify pilots for positions is a lot more accurate than 1500 hours of... well who knows what because it all counts. You can usually tell in the first 5 or 10 minutes flying with someone but a thorough competency evaluation is very telling.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
Reality is, it comes down to individual knowledge, skill, and performance. Competency based testing to qualify pilots for positions is a lot more accurate than 1500 hours of... well who knows what because it all counts. You can usually tell in the first 5 or 10 minutes flying with someone but a thorough competency evaluation is very telling.
Click to expand...
10 mins on the ramp and taxiway and I'm already about 75% certain of my opinion. I agree you can tell in about 10 minutes in flight.

Competency Eval: Everything is on the table, nothing barred. The evaluator, though, had better think very very carefully about the subsequent accident report. I've been through a few of these- and more than one, had to tell my evaluator that, "I think that's best done in sim....".
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
How did that work for Air France or Asiana? A multi-crew only license is a terrible idea.
Click to expand...

Precisely my point. The Captain, trained and culturally imbedded in the "PIC" decision making process, is rarely challenged by a junior, and in Asian culture can be beaten or fired.
If initial training is crew decision oriented, the law of primacy, like the law of gravity, will help prevent such single pilot actions as the Korean short landing.

Strictly big jet airplane crew pilots do not need single pilot solo skills .
Single pilot skills/decisions get in the way of the multi crew thinking process.

And the actual aircraft control is so different, it creates a skill problem.
You don't slip and skid and slow fly and stall an airliner to a landing like you do not a light airplane.

That's where our light airplane proficiency has gone in the pilot mills- trying to teach flying a light airplane single pilot as if it were an airliner.
Like ERAU .
 
nosehair said:
Precisely my point. The Captain, trained and culturally imbedded in the "PIC" decision making process, is rarely challenged by a junior, and in Asian culture can be beaten or fired.
If initial training is crew decision oriented, the law of primacy, like the law of gravity, will help prevent such single pilot actions as the Korean short landing.

Strictly big jet airplane crew pilots do not need single pilot solo skills .
Single pilot skills/decisions get in the way of the multi crew thinking process.

And the actual aircraft control is so different, it creates a skill problem.
You don't slip and skid and slow fly and stall an airliner to a landing like you do not a light airplane.

That's where our light airplane proficiency has gone in the pilot mills- trying to teach flying a light airplane single pilot as if it were an airliner.
Like ERAU .
Click to expand...


Ah, so they don't need to know how to fly, just group think. Got it. Heck, if that's the case, why not just throw a bunch of marketing types up front and let them group think.
 
nosehair said:
What really needs to happen is for the airlines to create their own initial co-pilot training programs.

Earning a private, instrument, commercial, & cfi in a single engine airplane is not just a waste of money, resources, and valuable time, but is against the basic law of primacy.

When I say single engine, i really mean single pilot . All the solo time, and most of the training and checking time is devoted to single pilot decision making.

Airline pilots never make single pilot decisions. Besides the actual crew on board, company radio decisions are consulted, and the Captain makes decisions based on a slew of crew and company policies and directives of the moment.
Our "single pilot" mentality of initial training causes that to be a real problem.
Airline pilots are like military pilots who never operate in the single pilot operating on your own mentality.

Two different worlds. What a waste.
Click to expand...

My god man you're misinformed!!

A pilot NEEDS command time, stick and rudder skills and pilotage skills, these ARE THE FOUNDATION everything else is built apon.

When we hire a guy we look for a diverse background and PIC time!

250hrs you get your first job, CFIing, pipeline, hauling rags, scenic rides, etc

Then you move up the chain to larger aircraft, to twins and more responsibility.

Then you move on to your first turbine gig

Around here you hit 1500tt

And you're ready for the big time, be it 121,135,137, 91 etc. More pay, more money in the a/c, more responsibility.

I spent a little time at one of these pilot colleges. They train guys, get them their CFI, then hire them to teach the next round. This creates a homogenious chit hole of antidotal training and one sided views.

The US can't claim they are #1 on many fields anymore

Aviation is the one realm where we still rock, our GA is HUGE compared to the rest of the world, changing us over to the POS system euro or Asia has is a HORRIBLE idea, for sooooooooo many reasons
 
Depends on what job you are wanting. But I think, in general, multiengine PIC, and turbine PIC are what many place want.
 
Last edited:
nosehair said:
Yeah Buddy, I hear you talking out there in Jackson Hole Wyoming .
Click to expand...

Nosehair, I take it you're not a backcountry pilot, Jackson is a major backcountry place.

Speaking if which, I'd way rather have a guy who built his hours in a 185 off field work in DA, near gross in backcountry Jackson, then some ERU kiddie.
 
Well, among other things, I beat the bushes in Alaska for 3 years in Cubs, Birdogs, & 185s.

I'm just bustin your chops for the fun of it. You can take it. You're a tailwheel.

But seriously, big shiny jet glass panel drivers don't need to know nuthin bout no tailwheels.
 
nosehair said:
Well, among other things, I beat the bushes in Alaska for 3 years in Cubs, Birdogs, & 185s.

I'm just bustin your chops for the fun of it. You can take it. You're a tailwheel.

But seriously, big shiny jet glass panel drivers don't need to know nuthin bout no tailwheels.
Click to expand...

But what about us tailwheel pilots who happen to fly those big shiny jet glass panels?
 
You're not the type I'm speaking of.
I'm talking out about the shiny jet aspirant who is not self motivated to become skilled in light planes. He is the CFI who sits his 500 hours in the right seat with students hating and fearing every moment and passing on the rampant fear and tech dependency to the next shiny jet aspirant.

Not you.
 
nosehair said:
You're not the type I'm speaking of.
I'm talking out about the shiny jet aspirant who is not self motivated to become skilled in light planes. He is the CFI who sits his 500 hours in the right seat with students hating and fearing every moment and passing on the rampant fear and tech dependency to the next shiny jet aspirant.

Not you.
Click to expand...

Smart answer....;)
 
nosehair said:
Well, among other things, I beat the bushes in Alaska for 3 years in Cubs, Birdogs, & 185s.

I'm just bustin your chops for the fun of it. You can take it. You're a tailwheel.

But seriously, big shiny jet glass panel drivers don't need to know nuthin bout no tailwheels.
Click to expand...


Well played :wink2:
 
After reading this entire thread, I am SO glad I don't fly for a living. Man, that would ruin EVERYTHING.
 
Jay Honeck said:
After reading this entire thread, I am SO glad I don't fly for a living. Man, that would ruin EVERYTHING.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

The whole thing strikes me as nonsense. If there is really some magical training that is better than 500h, then they should just set the limit to 1000h for everyone, and require that magical training.
 
I guess I don't really see an objection. The FAA allows reduced hours for Part 141 schools, its the same thing on a larger scale.
 
Wow, the envy and hatred displayed on here.

From what I see going on in the industry you can hate the university BS/ATP graduate all you want.
They will be the ones the airlines hire.
And no amount of 3 year old tantrums on here will change it even one scintilla.

Many of the Western Industrialized European countries train their airline pilots ab initio in an academic program that takes them from high school right through to the right seat of an airliner. 99% will never be a CFI or freight dogs or banner tow pilots.
Many will never again sit behind a piston engine after their initial flying from first solo through the instrument qualification. Some of these countries have it so that the first time the young first officer makes an actual flight in an RJ or bus it will be his first flight as first officer, the type rating up to that takeoff being performed on simulators.

Snort and sneer all you want. They will be the ones in the front of the bus when it leaves.
 
And hopefully in the future those guys will just be monitoring autopilots...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top