Exception for ERAU Students ATP, only 1,000 hours

[Frank]

Thing is, it is mostly a bean counter issue. The autopilot can fly the airplane MUCH more efficiently than a human can.

I understand the proficiency thing. But most of the guys I fly with will hand fly from takeoff until, well, whenever, and from about 7,000 feet on down.

Having said that, when one is hand flying at low altitudes, one has to divide one's time flying the airplane and looking for traffic.

Another thing, if one is hand flying in IMC, at least where I work, one has to have at least 4000 feet RVR and something above normal ceiling to do the approach.

I am pretty sure that Sully, the fellow who glided a fuel out plane in Canada 60 miles to a safe landing and the British Airways pilot who had a complete engine failure on landing but who stretched the glide by pulling up some flaps all had good hand flying skills. Also it would appear, the SFO crew did not have those skills. It would appear that an airline that has as much hand flying as you describe would have good aviators prepared for difficult situations. OTOH an airline whose flight crews are forced to be not much more than autopilot babysitters is asking for trouble when those crews are forced to face a situation demanding high caliber airmanship.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I am pretty sure that Sully, the fellow who glided a fuel out plane in Canada 60 miles to a safe landing

Sully landed the Airbus in the Hudson. Robert Pearson was the Captain on the Gimli Glider.

and the British Airways pilot who had a complete engine failure on landing but who stretched the glide by pulling up some flaps all had good hand flying skills.

If I recall correctly, they screwed the pooch by not paying attention to the fuel temperature. I recall the old saw "Truly superior pilots are those who use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills."

 

[ClimbnSink]

Ok, so compared to Part 61 training you don't think the University experience is (to use your words) "consistent" and "rigorous" and that the Aero University Grad is not exposed to technological systems ?

Have you been to college? Riddle is a joke. How many kids are they going to wash out of their super pilot program for substandard performance? None. Sure there will be the usual college dropouts for the usual reasons, but no wa$hout$. This is brilliant marketing for riddle even if there is no real world advantage for the kids. The dummies will think themselves even smarter.

 

[CaptLabrador]

Ok, so compared to Part 61 training you don't think the University experience is (to use your words) "consistent" and "rigorous" and that the Aero University Grad is not exposed to technological systems ?

From what I know you get out of that place what you put into it. I have friends who are great pilot come out of ERAU. But your missing my point. The rule was made for cockpit time requirements because of a crash based on inexperience and poor company rest policy and many other issues. A classroom at ERAU is not flight time nor will ever account for flight time. But it does put people like me and part 61 people at a disadvantage for no really good reason other than ERAU has good lobbyists. The people I know with degrees from ERAU are no more or less smarter than me with a degree from a state college. Their education in a classroom is not 500 hours of flight time or experience.

 

[CaptLabrador]

Have you been to college? Riddle is a joke. How many kids are they going to wash out of their super pilot program for substandard performance? None. Sure there will be the usual college dropouts for the usual reasons, but no wa$hout$. This is brilliant marketing for riddle even if there is no real world advantage for the kids. The dummies will think themselves even smarter.

And the Air Force will wash people out who don't cut it.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Have you been to college? Riddle is a joke. How many kids are they going to wash out of their super pilot program for substandard performance? None. Sure there will be the usual college dropouts for the usual reasons, but no wa$hout$. This is brilliant marketing for riddle even if there is no real world advantage for the kids. The dummies will think themselves even smarter.

You could make this same analogy about Ivy League colleges as well. As long as "mummy and dahdy" are paying the exorbitant fees and tuition little Johnnie IV is going to attend and get grades............then he will move on to be a Doctor or lawyer.

 

[ClimbnSink]

You could make this same analogy about Ivy League colleges as well. As long as "mummy and dahdy" are paying the exorbitant fees and tuition little Johnnie IV is going to attend and get grades............then he will move on to be a Doctor or lawyer.

That is true, the ivies do not toss students that turn out to be dumber then expected. You need super extra bad behavior to be tossed from an ivy. Both $ and they don't want to admit they made an admissions mistake. I hope the military washes out substandard pilot candidates but have no idea if that is the case.

 

[wabower]

As one of five judges for the SAFECON instrument flying competitions back in the day, I had the opportunity to observe pilots from all of the big programs as well as the smaller ones. The kids from ERAU seemed confident (a bit overly so, IMO) that they were the best sticks in the contest but their performance in the airplane didn't match up to their self-annointed superiority. All of the "real" colleges" beat them convincingly, a fact that was not lost on the various military and airline recuiters who were present at the event.

One kid who was obviously "da man" among his peers was particularly memorable. He actually flew the required departure, hold and approach pretty well except he did it all to the wrong runway which resulted in a "no score" per the rules. When he started to protest (berate) me regarding the fairness of the way the briefing was conducted I pointed to the briefing sheet on his clip-board and suggested he look in the mirror for the culprit.

 

[N801BH]

..... I hope the military washes out substandard pilot candidates but have no idea if that is the case.

Terminal velocity, high G's and gravity weed out the idiots.... REAL quick..

 

[RotorAndWing]

I hope the military washes out substandard pilot candidates but have no idea if that is the case.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

 

[Frank]

Sully landed the Airbus in the Hudson. Robert Pearson was the Captain on the Gimli Glider.



If I recall correctly, they screwed the pooch by not paying attention to the fuel temperature. I recall the old saw "Truly superior pilots are those who use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills."

Yes, I am sorry I did not punctuate correctly. I knew Sully landed in the Hudson, but I could not remember the other two sets of names.

I watched a video about the British Airways flight and the video seemed to indicate that the cause was pretty mysterious. The only way to trigger the event was to have the Rolls Royce engines, to let the fuel get cold, to a particular point, warm up very slightly, and then demand full power after an abrupt change in throttle. It took a lot of work to reproduce the engine failure.

OTOH, I have to wonder about the glider pilot not observing the fuel gauges. Not having sufficient initial fuel is one thing, not seeing the level go down too fast is quite another. Nevertheless, their airmanship in all three cases was superb after the triggering event.

 

[dmspilot]

I have to wonder about the [Gimli] glider pilot not observing the fuel gauges.

The gauges were inoperative.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Have you been to college? Riddle is a joke. How many kids are they going to wash out of their super pilot program for substandard performance? None. Sure there will be the usual college dropouts for the usual reasons, but no wa$hout$. This is brilliant marketing for riddle even if there is no real world advantage for the kids. The dummies will think themselves even smarter.

I'm not defending any of the collegiate astronaut programs - I am not a grad. My rather useless degree is actually in chemistry my flight training courtesy of the Marine Corps but what I am trying to get you to see is that compared to the great unknowns of a Part 61 the aeronautical colleges do have a more documented and rigid program. Hence the cut in hours. And since they are nowhere near as rigid as the military they have to do more flying.