ex-SEAL chases dog's killers

Racheljones said:
It is difficult for the canine based treatment plan to be effective when someone shoots it.
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Yeah, and depending on the psychosis and patient, lo be unto he that does the shooting.... this man has killed before for lesser reason....
 
Henning said:
child molesters.... The others are acts of violence and anger.
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Child molestation is very violent. They don't always beat the hell out of the kids but it is an abusive power trip. Seeing as many of them have been molested themselves, I would say there's a great deal of anger in there too.
 
steingar said:
I don't think a dog substitutes for a mental health treatment plan. Could be wrong, I'm not psychiatrist, but that's my thought.

Given the fact that he went all Rambo I'd say that the canine based treatment plan has limited effectiveness.
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How do you know the "mental health treatment plan" didn't include the dog?

As far as "he went all Rambo," when people lose confidence in Law Enforcement they often (rightly) feel compelled to assist LE in its duty.
 
steingar said:
I don't think a dog substitutes for a mental health treatment plan. Could be wrong, I'm not psychiatrist, but that's my thought.
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I knew this already from your posts, but you clearly do not have experience with dogs if this is your feeling, or otherwise have not seen the effects of animal therapy. So, you are wrong. While it does not work for everyone (no treatment does), there is a very high level of success for animal therapy in various forms.
 
steingar said:
That said, in what kind of horrible place does anyone go about randomly shooting dogs or anything else? How messed up is that?
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There are a lot of things that go unpunished. Hence one of my favorite movie quotes:

The Punisher said:

I leave this as a declaration of intent - so no one will be confused.
  1. Sic vis pacem parabellum. Latin. Boot Camp Sergeant made us recite it like a prayer. Sic vis pacem parabellum. If you want peace, prepare for war.
  2. Frank Castle is dead. He died with his family.
  3. In certain - extreme situations, the law is inadequate. In order to shame its inadequacy, it is necessary to act outside the law. To pursue - natural justice. This is not vengeance. Revenge is not a valid motive, it’s an emotional response. No, not vengeance. Punishment.
Those who do evil to others - killers, rapists, psychos, sadists - will come to know me well. Frank Castle is dead. Call me - The Punisher.
​
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I think just about all of us, to some degree or another, like to see people with this mentality. For various (good) reasons, it stays in Hollywood. I'll be the first to agree with David that it's not conducive to a society which is governed by laws, and that is really what is best for all.

You won't find me faulting this guy for his reaction, as some things are pretty darn close to black and white. I would voluntarily remove myself from the jury were he brought to trail and I was on jury duty.
 
Henning said:
Depending on the psychosis, the dog or other animal can be the root to a very effective therapy, better than can be effected with drugs. I've talked with a lot of Vietnam vets, many with major issues that relate to acts of sheer inhumanity and a justified loss of value towards life in general. The animal is always there to reinforce that there is value to life. Then there is also an issue of ever letting people close to you because of great loss under traumatic circumstances. Then there is self value in that "Thou shalt not kill" is for most an instinctual knowledge, and they have killed, brutally and without mercy. For many of these, the animal is a burden of atonement. There are many aspects to "pet therapy" that make it very effective among vets. Combat can and most likely will break a good mans mind. Some people need more help than others healing. Animals do a really good job at it.
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I stand corrected.
 
steingar said:
Sorry guys, I part company with you all. I love dogs. I have two (photos below), and they're wonderful. They are a huge part of my life, and are like family to me. However, they're dogs. Not people, dogs. The guy in question entered into a high speed chase, imperiling himself, those he chased, and potentially innocent members of his community. Over a dog. I wouldn't like it if someone came and shot my dog, but I wouldn't go all Rambo about it either.
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You're a sane rational person, your dogs do not represent to you what his dog represented to him. As I said before3 combat really damages some people.

My personal perspective, I condone his behavior or multiple levels, greatest of them is that he was supporting Darwinian order. The world is overpopulated, so I don't mind culling. Shooting a non threatening animal shows a wanton disregard for life in general. This never bodes a good result, no problem killing them, they don't respect life, their life isn't respected, fair nough. Dude just f-ed with the wrong mans dog. He was probably trying pretty hard to recover and reaffirm his value for life. We have many many time bombs out there created by our military. Most of them the fuses aren't lit, and in fact are damp. There are some where the fuse is smoldering, and the saddest part is that this happens to some of the best people. Well, doing cruel things randomly exposes one to risks or triggering a negative reaction. The soldier has a valid affirmative defense, and as long as we as a society want to send people into combat, we have to accept that this type of event will occur.
 
Anthony said:
Darn right. I find myself not trusting people that don't like animals. Maybe its wrong, but how can you not like a little cat or dog that just wants to give you joy.

I pet stragne cats and dogs all the time. If its a dog I will ask the owner if its OK first though. I've never had a bad experience with a pet.
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Well is is not all or nothing with this issue. I am certaily against abusing anthing animal, human whatever BUT "How can I not like a little cat or dog...?" Well I love dogs, I pet them wrestle with them, I just love dogs ( albeit not a fan of what I call Yippers) I won't just go up and pet a strange dog because frankly I know nothing about it, its history or temperment. If its with an owner I'll ask the owner if I can pet it. If it runs up to me in a friendly way I'll evaluate the situatin and pet it if it looks relaxed or welcoming. I won't walk across the street to pet a strange dog with no one there as it could take it as a threat.

Kids often like to pet animals they don't know. We taught our daughter not to do that as I didn't want her hand crushed in some strange dogs mouth and kids learn by example.

As for cats, well sorry Chuck, Elizabeth and all the feline lovers I don't like cats, I love dogs but am not a cat fan. Don't want to see them stuck in microwaves but that fact that I don't like cats dosen't make me rotten. Actually I did like my neighbors cat but it acted a LOT like a dog.
 
Henning said:
You're a sane rational person, your dogs do not represent to you what his dog represented to him. As I said before3 combat really damages some people.

My personal perspective, I condone his behavior or multiple levels, greatest of them is that he was supporting Darwinian order. The world is overpopulated, so I don't mind culling. Shooting a non threatening animal shows a wanton disregard for life in general. This never bodes a good result, no problem killing them, they don't respect life, their life isn't respected, fair nough. Dude just f-ed with the wrong mans dog. He was probably trying pretty hard to recover and reaffirm his value for life. We have many many time bombs out there created by our military. Most of them the fuses aren't lit, and in fact are damp. There are some where the fuse is smoldering, and the saddest part is that this happens to some of the best people. Well, doing cruel things randomly exposes one to risks or triggering a negative reaction. The soldier has a valid affirmative defense, and as long as we as a society want to send people into combat, we have to accept that this type of event will occur.
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You're way off base here, and I suggest the psycho-speculation cease.
 
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Trapper John said:
Yep, if the guy had hit and killed someone as a result of the chase, the article would be completely different.


Trapper John
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IF, Some people always have to come up with an IF. They can't do anything because what IF such and such. I think he did the right thing.
 
Henning said:
Constantly astonishes me as well. I was having lunch at an outside diner the other day when a cat came up and rubbed my leg, so I picked her up and put her in my lap. The girl I was with was taken aghast and disgusted that I would pick up a strange animal much less feed it in my lap. So much for future dates with that girl. You can tell a lot about people by how they treat animals.
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Henning, how do you find these loser women?

I'm glad he recurited the authorities. Naval officers, trained to fight boarders, are also trained to empy the clip.
 
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What is it they say likes attract? Or is it opposites attract, or is that just regular magnets. Not psycho magnets. :smile:
 
somewhere in the thread, I believe I'm interpreting a "he should have called the cops and butted out" attitude.

Read the book ... read the book ... read the book ... calling the cops was not part of the training, nor did it prove very effective in the mountains of Afghanistan ...
 
Last time I checked he wasn't in the mountains of Afghanistan. He was in some even worse hellhole where they shoot dogs for fun.
 
gkainz said:
somewhere in the thread, I believe I'm interpreting a "he should have called the cops and butted out" attitude.

Read the book ... read the book ... read the book ... calling the cops was not part of the training, nor did it prove very effective in the mountains of Afghanistan ...
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So what? Do we live in Afghanistan?
 
Henning said:
Dude, I don't know, but I'm like a psycho chick magnet....
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Sir. You do not have a monopoly on that one. Maybe try to date the ones you DON'T like, then it might work out. :smilewinkgrin:
 
steingar said:
The dude volunteered to go into harm's way.
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Yep, and I thank him and accept him for it. I did not say it wasn't necessary or put any judgment on him or the overall situation, merely stated that this is one of the results we have to deal with. It happens whether we like it or not or want to accept and acknowledge it. It always has through history. There is a certain amount of psychological training (brainwashing if you want) that goes against societal norms, or at least ideals. It's required though to make that soldier effective not only in fulfilling his mission, but also in ensuring his and his teamates survival. We spend a lot of money and effort on this, and sometimes it cannot be undone. I used to go into the VA hospital with my dad (a pshrink there) and I'd visit with vets. Some of them had it pretty tough. Just because he volunteered for the job doesn't make the personal impact any greater. Kinda seems that they guys who signed up for the most altruistic reasons get hurt the most.
 
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Henning said:
Yep, and I thank him and accept him for it. I did not say it wasn't necessary or put any judgment on him or the overall situation, merely stated that this is one of the results we have to deal with. It happens whether we like it or not or want to accept and acknowledge it. It always has through history. There is a certain amount of psychological training (brainwashing if you want) that goes against societal norms, or at least ideals. It's required though to make that soldier effective not only in fulfilling his mission, but also in ensuring his and his teamates survival. We spend a lot of money and effort on this, and sometimes it cannot be undone. I used to go into the VA hospital with my dad (a pshrink there) and I'd visit with vets. Some of them had it pretty tough. Just because he volunteered for the job doesn't make the personal impact any greater. Kinda seems that they guys who signed up for the most altruistic reasons get hurt the most.
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And the sample population you may have encountered is not necessarily normative.

People bring themselves into the Service. Some are grounded and will remain well-adjusted and able to function normally post-trauma.

Some do not.

But it's unfair to paint all combat veterans with the ticking-time-bomb brush.

Very few are, and it's insulting to suggest that the case is otherwise.
 
steingar said:
Last time I checked he wasn't in the mountains of Afghanistan. He was in some even worse hellhole where they shoot dogs for fun.
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maybe last time he checked, he still was ...

you know, I served to protect the rights of Americans to express their opinions ... but I'm checking out of this discussion.
 
Henning said:
He most likely is still attached to his time and experiences there. These are things we have to accept and deal with whenever we send young men into harms way.
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For sure, but accepting and dealing with it does not necessarily involve a hands-off approach. If the guy needs mental help, or even confinement, then that's what's necessary. As you've pointed out, it's an unfortunate reality - but you don't get a pass to violate the rules and expectations of society because of this "I served my country" bull----.
 
Not all soldiers are in the same kind of war, not all are exposed to the kind of experience that this one was in. So, no, not all turn out the same or are affected to the same degree. If you read the book "Flags of Our Fathers" By Bradley, see what he says about his father. His dad was a Navy corpman that served on Iwo Jima and was one of the flag raisers. It tells of the problems he suffered long after he got home. Bob
 
Henning said he was sent, and I pointed out (appropriately, I think) that he volunteered. I genuinely do feel badly for him, and I am glad no charges were filed against him. If I did something similar I would expect charges to be filed against me. We all have to live within the law.

Apparently I am the only one in this thread who lives in a place where people don't shoot dogs for fun.
 
I don't think anyone here can say they wouldn't be slightly ****ed off/emotional if the same thing happened to you.

First, your buddies died on fighting around you. Next, when you get out and back home, part of dealing with the emotion of what all has happened, you were given a dog to deal with it. A group of thugs comes by, and just for no reason kills the dog. I don't know about you guys, but if that happened to me, I'm fairly sure I'd be more than ****ed off. He had be trained to do a job, and well, as I've always been told about flight training, in critical situations, a human will always revert back to what they have been trained to do. He was trained to kill, and, he did what his training taught him to do. I'm going to cut him some slack.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I don't think anyone here can say they wouldn't be slightly ****ed off/emotional if the same thing happened to you.
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Of course not. It's completely understandable how he felt. However, look at it this way. We are taught to compartmentalize and not let our emotions get in the way when we are flying. Either that or we are supposed to ground ourselves. Shouldn't it be that way for driving too? You are still operating a vehicle capable of doing deadly harm to someone.
 
There's a story that came out several years ago about the golfer Ken Green and his dog, Nip. Apparently Nip chased a ball into the canal in Ken's back yard and was attacked by an alligator. Ken said he saw the 'gator grab the dog and take it down. He jumped in, fought off the 'gator and rescued Nip which required a bunch of stitches to close it's wounds. When asked by the media if he was certifiably nuts for risking his life for the dog, he replied "Nip would have done it for me."

I love this story:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_12_54/ai_110240878/
 
dmccormack said:
And the sample population you may have encountered is not necessarily normative.

People bring themselves into the Service. Some are grounded and will remain well-adjusted and able to function normally post-trauma.

Some do not.

But it's unfair to paint all combat veterans with the ticking-time-bomb brush.

Very few are, and it's insulting to suggest that the case is otherwise.
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I'm sorry if I'm leaving that impression, I don't believe that nor do I mean to convey it. You are correct, my sampling is far far far removed from the normative. They are at the fringes of the Bell curve. However, they do exist in numbers enough that we need to accept that they exist in our society and yeah, you have to take that into consideration that occasionally a small percent of this already small group will if triggered properly become an Apex Predator once more. When those times do happen, yes Obi, I do believe we owe them some extra slack for the burden they shoulder on our behalf.
 
Listen to Marcus tell the story...

911 call:


Marcus story about what happened with the dog, in his own words:

 
Henning said:
Constantly astonishes me as well. I was having lunch at an outside diner the other day when a cat came up and rubbed my leg, so I picked her up and put her in my lap. The girl I was with was taken aghast and disgusted that I would pick up a strange animal much less feed it in my lap. So much for future dates with that girl. You can tell a lot about people by how they treat animals.
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Well, she wouldn't have scored points with me, either. I'd have done the same as you. Cats are nice, even if they can be a bit demanding. But, when one rubs up against your leg you just have to give it some loving back.
 
Here is Petty Officer Luttrell with Katie Couric speaking about his survival in combat. No jury in their right mind would convict this guy had he killed the two thugs, especially after you watch the second video.

Embedding is disabled so here's the link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIx0YPejzE4

This second video is 23 minutes. He is speaking at the Goldwater Institute March 2009. It's about the event which led to the loss of his team. It's well worth your time and respect of this man and all those who serve like him. At the time of this speech, his brother is in Afghanistan as a SEAL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQebS8WUYuA

An interview with CBN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FPLCKdI_fs

Segments of another speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxUy7Ner_TI
 
Henning said:
Dude, I don't know, but I'm like a psycho chick magnet....
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As am I. Still trying to figure that one out.

And the dating the ones you don't like doesn't work because, well, you don't like them. There was one girl I met last summer who was very interested in me, but the reverse was not true. I realized later she was too normal.

Maybe I need therapy. I took the first step - I got a dog. :)
 
Thank you for the links, Kenny and Troy. To the board, my apology for stomping off in a snit. I'm afraid I was in a rather bad mood then and reacted poorly to what seemed to me to be a complete lack of knowledge, understanding, compassion and gratitude for the sacrifices this Medal of Honor recipient made on OUR behalf.
 
gkainz said:
Thank you for the links, Kenny and Troy. To the board, my apology for stomping off in a snit. I'm afraid I was in a rather bad mood then and reacted poorly to what seemed to me to be a complete lack of knowledge, understanding, compassion and gratitude for the sacrifices this Medal of Honor recipient made on OUR behalf.
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You don't get the CMH for nada either. IIRC, the majority of CMHs are awarded posthumously. You can pretty much take for granted, if the CMH is awarded, it was really really ugly when it was going down.
 
Bob Bement said:
Not all soldiers are in the same kind of war, not all are exposed to the kind of experience that this one was in. So, no, not all turn out the same or are affected to the same degree. If you read the book "Flags of Our Fathers" By Bradley, see what he says about his father. His dad was a Navy corpman that served on Iwo Jima and was one of the flag raisers. It tells of the problems he suffered long after he got home. Bob
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This is so very true, My Father was a B-17 pilot with the 15th AF out of Italy in WW2. He never wanted to talk about it. I don't think the war left him many good memories, I am sure he was never able to escape the memories either. DaveR
 
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