European airspace shutdown due to volcanic ash.

[AdamZ]

Western European Airspace has been shut down due to Ash from an eruption last night from the volcano in Iceland that has been erupting for several weeks. I wonder how long it will take to either rain or fall out. Interestingly they said that jet engines can melt the talc like ash and then it can resolidify in the engines shutting them down. So its about more than just clogging them up. It actually melts and resolidifys.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36543312/ns/world_news-europe

 

[wbarnhill]

UK and other countries close airspace due to volcanic ash

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/world/europe/16ash.html?src=mv

Britain’s National Air Traffic Service said it expected the country’s airspace would remain closed until at least 7 a.m. Friday.
“The cloud of volcanic ash is now spread across the U.K. and continuing to travel south,” the service said in a statement on its Web site. “In line with international civil aviation policy, no flights other than agreed emergencies are currently permitted in U.K.-controlled airspace.”

Satellite imagery of the ash. Nasty stuff.

 

[Ghery]

Fortunately my next trip to Europe isn't until July. With luck this will be history by then. Now, if that stuff gets high enough to get caught up the jet stream, I sure hope it doesn't mess with trans-Pac routes. SEA-NRT is long enough (but, they try and stay out of the jet for the west bound route).

 

[rpadula]

Iceland's revenge!

 

[woodstock]

Fortunately my next trip to Europe isn't until July. With luck this will be history by then. Now, if that stuff gets high enough to get caught up the jet stream, I sure hope it doesn't mess with trans-Pac routes. SEA-NRT is long enough (but, they try and stay out of the jet for the west bound route).

Ours is in 5 weeks - ditto!

 

[tdager]

Amazing stuff!

 

[Pi1otguy]

Interestingly they said that jet engines can melt the talc like ash and then it can resolidify in the engines shutting them down. So its about more than just clogging them up. It actually melts and resolidifys.

That, and thick cabin smoke smelling of sulfur while all 4 engines spit fireballs then flame out is a bit disconcerting to the pax too. Just ask British Air flight 9.

 

[Ghery]

Fortunately my next trip to Europe isn't until July.

Ours is in 5 weeks - ditto!

Off topic a little, but it's amazing how our lives change over time. When I went to Europe for the first time in 1971 I figured it would be the chance of a lifetime. Overseas travel! What an opportunity. Next time was in 1978. 7 years. Next in 1983. 5 years. Next in 1986. 3 years. I believe I made it in 1987, as well. 1 year interval.

Now? Drat, I'm going to have to wedge myself into one of those pressurized aluminum mailing tubes again. Thank goodness for E+ on UA. Lifesaver next month going to TPE and in July going to MXP. And LIH in August. At least Swiss wasn't too bad in February.

Times change, and we sure can't predict the future. Now we worry about something disrupting yet another trip.

Anyway, back to volcanic ash.

 

[woodstock]

Off topic a little, but it's amazing how our lives change over time. When I went to Europe for the first time in 1971 I figured it would be the chance of a lifetime. Overseas travel! What an opportunity. Next time was in 1978. 7 years. Next in 1983. 5 years. Next in 1986. 3 years. I believe I made it in 1987, as well. 1 year interval.

Now? Drat, I'm going to have to wedge myself into one of those pressurized aluminum mailing tubes again. Thank goodness for E+ on UA. Lifesaver next month going to TPE and in July going to MXP. And LIH in August. At least Swiss wasn't too bad in February.

Times change, and we sure can't predict the future. Now we worry about something disrupting yet another trip.

Anyway, back to volcanic ash.

I know right? I was there five times last year. I've had other years like that - can't remember if I've reached 6 times in a year. I think 5 is max so far.

re: ASH:

Because the ash cloud was dry, it did not show up on the weather radar, which is designed to detect the moisture in clouds. The cloud sandblasted the windscreen and landing light covers and clogged the engines. As the ash entered the engines, it melted in the combustion chambers and adhered to the inside of the power-plant. As the engine cooled from not running and as the aircraft descended out of the ash cloud, the molten ash solidified and enough broke off to allow air to flow smoothly through the engine allowing a successful restart.

 

[rpadula]

As usual, boston.com has some awesome photos!

 

[sba55]

Hmmmm that will be interesting. Flying San Francisco - Frankfurt this Monday (or not!). We'll see....

 

[AdamZ]

Rich awesome photos thanks!

 

[CJones]

Here in ATL, the local news is saying it is the largest disruption in travel to/from Europe since 9/11.

 

[Teller1900]

Here in ATL, the local news is saying it is the largest disruption in travel to/from Europe since 9/11.

The departures board here in EWR is something to see; a lot of red! It's almost midnight and the terminal (on both sides of security) is still PACKED. It's usually a ghost town by now. Long night ahead for pax and gate agents.

 

[nddons]

My daughter is in Ireland and I sent an email asking if they have seen any impact at ground level from this eruption, but have not heard from her.

Has anyone seen if Europe has seen any effect at ground level?

 

[sba55]

My daughter is in Ireland and I sent an email asking if they have seen any impact at ground level from this eruption, but have not heard from her.

Has anyone seen if Europe has seen any effect at ground level?

A friend of mine in Frankfurt told me earlier today that it's quite hazy. They've also shut down most of the airports in Germany.

Just talked to United. He said they're "playing it by ear - could be a few months" Sure hope not

 

[kmies]

My daughter is in Ireland and I sent an email asking if they have seen any impact at ground level from this eruption, but have not heard from her.

Has anyone seen if Europe has seen any effect at ground level?

Yesterday sun set was a bit more red/ orange than usual in The Netherlands. Apart from that nothing.
Our FIR is closed till at least 16:00LT April 16th.

 

[Steve]

A little volcanic ash trivia


The U.S. Geological Survey said about 100 aircraft have run into volcanic ash from 1983 to 2000. In some cases engines shut down briefly after sucking in volcanic debris, but there have been no fatal incidents.

In 1989, a KLM Royal Dutch Airlines Boeing 747 flew into an ash cloud from Alaska's Redoubt volcano and lost all power, dropping from 25,000 feet to 12,000 feet (7,500 meters to 3,600) before the crew could get the engines restarted. The plane landed safely.
In another incident in the 1980s, a British Airways 747 flew into a dust cloud and the grit sandblasted the windscreen. The pilot had to stand and look out a side window to land safely.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100416/ap_on_re_eu/eu_iceland_volcano


"It is likely that the production of ash will continue at a comparable level for some days or weeks. But where it disrupts travel, that depends on the weather," said Einar Kjartansson, a geophysicist at the Icelandic Meteorological Office. "It depends how the wind carries the ash."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20100415/ap_tr_ge/eu_travel_brief_iceland_volcano

 

[woodstock]

A friend of mine in Frankfurt told me earlier today that it's quite hazy. They've also shut down most of the airports in Germany.

Just talked to United. He said they're "playing it by ear - could be a few months" Sure hope not

a few MONTHS? are you kidding me?

ps. finally hit Frankfurt, haven't heard if it hit any airport in CH yet. Wonder if it would dip that far south. I hope this is gone in 5 weeks (or doesn't recur, more like it). gah!

 

[AuntPeggy]

Yesterday sun set was a bit more red/ orange than usual in The Netherlands. Apart from that nothing.
Our FIR is closed till at least 16:00LT April 16th.

Hello, and welcome to PoA. Thanks for contributing from your unusual (for us) point of view. How did you find us? Tell us a little about yourself.

I'm a retirement-age programmer and private pilot who flies my own plane with Hubby for fun and to visit our grandchildren who live 1500 to 3000 miles away.

 

[James_Dean]

My parents are stuck in the UK. Mom played golf at the R&A yesterday and the caddie said it was the clearest day he could remember. They're not sure how/when they will be able to get home.

Eggman

 

[woodstock]

My parents are stuck in the UK. Mom played golf at the R&A yesterday and the caddie said it was the clearest day he could remember. They're not sure how/when they will be able to get home.

Eggman

There are worse places to be stuck!

 

[tdager]

There are worse places to be stuck!

Very true!

 

[woodstock]

Here is an interesting link:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/412103-ash-clouds-threaten-air-traffic.html

 

[sba55]

a few MONTHS? are you kidding me?

ps. finally hit Frankfurt, haven't heard if it hit any airport in CH yet. Wonder if it would dip that far south. I hope this is gone in 5 weeks (or doesn't recur, more like it). gah!

Yes, I think he may have been exaggerating a little bit

For anyone who needs to go to Europe and can't be late, there's still lots of flights left to Madrid and Rome. Just booked a backup to Rome, which is hopefully far enough south so it won't be impacted......

 

[wbarnhill]

Yes, I think he may have been exaggerating a little bit

For anyone who needs to go to Europe and can't be late, there's still lots of flights left to Madrid and Rome. Just booked a backup to Rome, which is hopefully far enough south so it won't be impacted......

And you could always hit an Eastbound transatlantic cruise
http://www.cunard.com/Destinations/default.asp?Sub=&Region=7

 

[woodstock]

Yes, I think he may have been exaggerating a little bit

For anyone who needs to go to Europe and can't be late, there's still lots of flights left to Madrid and Rome. Just booked a backup to Rome, which is hopefully far enough south so it won't be impacted......

I am actually considering changing all of our flights to Rome. If things are severely disrupted I doubt it would make all that much difference though.

Iceland cannot catch a break. dang.

 

[ScottM]

I am actually considering changing all of our flights to Rome. If things are severely disrupted I doubt it would make all that much difference though.

Iceland cannot catch a break. dang.

I would not worry about it yet. A lot can happen between now and then to get things back to normal.

 

[gismo]

In 1989, a KLM Royal Dutch Airlines Boeing 747 flew into an ash cloud from Alaska's Redoubt volcano and lost all power, dropping from 25,000 feet to 12,000 feet (7,500 meters to 3,600) before the crew could get the engines restarted. The plane landed safely.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20100415/ap_tr_ge/eu_travel_brief_iceland_volcano

That drop from 25,000 to 12,000 probably wasn't as big a deal as it sounds, IIRC the airstart procedure requires a drop to that altitude.

 

[flyersfan31]

Frickin' Iceland. Always causing problems.....

 

[Teller1900]

That drop from 25,000 to 12,000 probably wasn't as big a deal as it sounds, IIRC the airstart procedure requires a drop to that altitude.

But I thought when an airplane's engine stops it's nose automatically points at the ground and it starts making a high pitch whistle as it screams toward earth at about Mach 4.





At least, that's what the TV has taught me.

 

[Everskyward]

That drop from 25,000 to 12,000 probably wasn't as big a deal as it sounds, IIRC the airstart procedure requires a drop to that altitude.

Since 12,000 feet sounded pretty low to me as the maximum altitude for an airstart procedure (below a lot of the peaks here), I went looking for some information on the 747. Who knows if the 747 in this accident report has the same engines but this is what I found.

The In-flight Start Procedure is not encased in a black border; therefore, it is an abnormal, not an emergency, procedure. (See Appendix D.) The procedure indicates that a windmill start can be made at airspeeds above 250 KIAS; below 250 KIAS, the ignition switches must be placed in ground start to direct engine bleed air to the pneumatic starter to assist compressor rotation during the restart. The JT9D-7A engine In-flight Restart Envelope Chart indicates that 30,000 feet is the maximum altitude at which a successful restart can be expected.

Then I started looking at the rest of the accident report....

About 1016 Pacific standard time, February 19, 1985, China Airlines Flight 006,
a Boeing 747 SP-09, enroute to Los Angeles, California from Taipei, Taiwan, suffered an
inflight upset. The flight from Taipei to about 300 nmi northwest of San Francisco was
uneventful and the airplane was flying at about 41,000 feet mean sea level when the No. 4
engine lost power. During the attempt to recover and restore normal power on the No.4
engine, the airplane rolled to the right, nosed over, and entered an uncontrollable descent.
The captain was unable to restore the airplane to stable flight until it had descended to
9,500 feet. After the captain stabilized the airplane, he elected to divert to San
Francisco International Airport, where a safe landing was made.

http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publications/Incidents/DOCS/ComAndRep/ChinaAir/AAR8603.html

 

[flyersfan31]

But I thought when an airplane's engine stops it's nose automatically points at the ground and it starts making a high pitch whistle as it screams toward earth at about Mach 4.





At least, that's what the TV has taught me.

But that's ok, because as long as the pilot has really strong arms he can just pull back really hard on the yoke and pull out of the dive. You really need to strain until the veins on your head start to pop out, but it's definitely do-able.

 

[Teller1900]

But that's ok, because as long as the pilot has really strong arms he can just pull back really hard on the yoke and pull out of the dive. You really need to strain until the veins on your head start to pop out, but it's definitely do-able.

Exactly. That, or have Bugs Bunny on board. Those are really the only two options.

 

[sballmer]

In all the press coverage of this ash cloud I haven't heard anyone talk about how *much* ash is actually in the atmosphere. Europe is a big place, that ash ought to spread out. As far as I can tell, all the previous incidents of airplanes flying into volcanic ash (like e.g. KLM flight 867 or British Airways Flight 9,) happened fairly close to the erupting volcano.

Does anyone know at what concentration volcanic ash actually becomes a problem?

 

[woodstock]

But that's ok, because as long as the pilot has really strong arms he can just pull back really hard on the yoke and pull out of the dive. You really need to strain until the veins on your head start to pop out, but it's definitely do-able.

I think Holly Hunter did that in the movie Always. She even took her headphones off.

 

[sba55]

I am still surprised every time I notice just how uninformed the news media are about aviation. As a result, I can't tell what's actually happening in Europe. Does anyone here have accurate information?

For example, I suspect that the airspace over Europe is not "shut down" like the news outlets are saying. Peter said that IFR clearances in the UK are not issued in controlled airspace. Fine, that makes sense. So it sounds like this is not a Eurocontrol issue then and instead all the individual countries are making these rules? Let's say, for informational purposes, I wanted to fly a p91 flight to Europe and I want to go IFR. What happens? Is there a TFR over all of Europe (don't think so), can I not fly IFR in some countries, or what's actually happening?

-Felix

 

[sballmer]

For example, I suspect that the airspace over Europe is not "shut down" like the news outlets are saying.

I don't know about all European countries, but for example in Switzerland the BAZL (Swiss equivalent of the FAA) initially indeed decreed the whole airspace closed.

They then had trouble though explaining why the ash should be a problem for, say, glider pilots... so they re-allowed VFR traffic the next day...

It is just another example of authorities simply forgetting about GA.
Plus, since when is it the aviation agency's job to decide whether the weather conditions allow for a specific flight?

 

[kkoran]

I am still surprised every time I notice just how uninformed the news media are about aviation. As a result, I can't tell what's actually happening in Europe. Does anyone here have accurate information?

For example, I suspect that the airspace over Europe is not "shut down" like the news outlets are saying. Peter said that IFR clearances in the UK are not issued in controlled airspace. Fine, that makes sense. So it sounds like this is not a Eurocontrol issue then and instead all the individual countries are making these rules? Let's say, for informational purposes, I wanted to fly a p91 flight to Europe and I want to go IFR. What happens? Is there a TFR over all of Europe (don't think so), can I not fly IFR in some countries, or what's actually happening?

-Felix

I suppose it depends on the country. No need for a TFR. If, like the UK, they don't want to fly IFR, they simply don't issue you an IFR clearance.

 

[sba55]

Plus, since when is it the aviation agency's job to decide whether the weather conditions allow for a specific flight?

True, and I suspect that's why all the various countries are reacting differently to this. I wonder what would happen in the U.S. - I can't see the FAA issuing a country-wide TFR in a case like this....