Establishing PIC with a flight instructor

[denverpilot]

I watched an ex-Military Vietnam-era IP save my butt and everyone else's on board a (probably overloaded) 182 on floats one day.

Young pilot in the left seat launching us out of a lake in front of a fishing camp north of Kenora, Ontario. Closest emergency services was at least 100 miles away.

Youngster in his third season flying people into the backcountry would have over-rotated and gone to way too high of a nose-up pitch angle at lift-off; he wasn't paying attention to the rear CG.

Old crusty IP in the right seat simply had his hand up on his leg where he knew the yoke needed to stop at -- and stopped it from coming any further aft during takeoff. He noticed the kid had full nose down elevator to get the tails of the floats out of the water during the takeoff run, and knew what it meant for the takeoff.

He didn't have to say a word. Blocked the yoke right as the stall horn came on with the palm of his hand, while the young pilot turned red and woke up.

IP never said a word. He kept his mouth shut and let the kid learn.

If he hadn't been in the right seat, I don't know if I'd be here today. I thanked him later in private back at the floatplane base away from the young pilot. He smiled and nodded and said something to the effect of, "I spent a lot of years keeping students from killing me, didn't think today was a good day to ignore the signs."

Only the three of us ever knew it happened. If I weren't a pilot, I wouldn't have noticed or seen anything but the beep of the stall horn.

Anyone sitting right seat who needs to make a big deal out of being PIC, is trying too hard.

Old IP taught me a lot about being a courteous right-seater that day, too. Sit there, shut up, and help save everyone's ass when the left-seater makes a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes eventually.

If you can do it without making it obvious, Good Samaritan points for you. If I weren't a pilot and watching, I'd have never known what he did that day.

 

[denverpilot]

P.S. Also along those lines, another flight in someone else's aircraft where he was doing incredibly stupid things and I was stuck in the back seat, helpless to help him other than say things as politely but urgently as possible via the intercom, have me another one of my personal rules...

If there's no W&B or any other pressing reason (and yeah, a non-pilot begging would be a reason, but I'd express some displeasure and make sure it was ok with the other pilot before loading) not to, rated pilots sit up front. Period. Don't care if they're rated in my airplane or not, they're up front.

I don't ever want even an inexperienced pilot sitting in the back where they can't assist me if something goes down.

Now this guy who wanted to be PIC and yadda yadda, he might end up being left on the ground as David chose to do...

But if he got his mental act together, and he was on board, he's up front.

Karen also knows about this personal rule and knows all the details about how it came to be, and she's cool with it. If she does a Pinch Hitter, she'll have the ability to call "shotgun" over a rated pilot if she likes. She's lived with me with me enough, I know how she acts under duress.

 

[jesse]

P.S. Also along those lines, another flight in someone else's aircraft where he was doing incredibly stupid things and I was stuck in the back seat, helpless to help him other than say things as politely but urgently as possible via the intercom, have me another one of my personal rules...

99.75% of the times I've left the ground for the sky I've had controls in front of me. Not having it does freak me out a bit - airliners included - especially those damn regionals.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

One of the strangest cases I remember is a CFI being held liable even though he was in the back seat, presumably instructing two guys in the pilot seats. Doesn't answer your question but always comes to mind during these discussions.

If it's the case I'm thinking of, wasn't he asleep too? But he was the only one of the three (IIRC, aircraft owner PNF, and PF was a not-current military pilot who wasn't really qualified in the plane) who survived.

 

[flyingron]

As pointed out, ANYTIME you have have more than one pilot in the aircraft it behooves you to figure out who is going to play what role.

Interestingly, I did fly with CapnRon (we were dropping his plane off at LNS for avionics work). He hopped into the right seat and offered that he could be the CFI, co-pilot, or passenger.

 

[wabower]

I had to do the same thing on my first trip into Gastons in 1968, only it was the approach to landing that went bad.

The doctor in the left seat decided to flare about tree-top high and I could envision the gear coming through the tops of the wings and the outboard motor in the seat behind me whacking me on the head.

I just said "we're not there yet" and shoved the throttle forward (with his hand still on it) and made the same move with my yoke. When we were above the runway I relaxed both hands and said "now land" and he did. It was very quiet in the plane as we taxied to the parking area, and I thought I might be taking the bus back to KC. After shutting down he thanked me profusely and said it was his first trip into a somewhat confined grass strip and that he had simply reacted inappropriately.

I had no instructor credentials at the time, but had grown up flying out of small grass and dirt airports, so Gastons didn't look that much different. The Dr's name is/was Bob Cobb, and he had been trained as a dentist and then later as a physician. Great guy to have along on a hunting or fishing trip.

I watched an ex-Military Vietnam-era IP save my butt and everyone else's on board a (probably overloaded) 182 on floats one day.

Young pilot in the left seat launching us out of a lake in front of a fishing camp north of Kenora, Ontario. Closest emergency services was at least 100 miles away.

Youngster in his third season flying people into the backcountry would have over-rotated and gone to way too high of a nose-up pitch angle at lift-off; he wasn't paying attention to the rear CG.

Old crusty IP in the right seat simply had his hand up on his leg where he knew the yoke needed to stop at -- and stopped it from coming any further aft during takeoff. He noticed the kid had full nose down elevator to get the tails of the floats out of the water during the takeoff run, and knew what it meant for the takeoff.

He didn't have to say a word. Blocked the yoke right as the stall horn came on with the palm of his hand, while the young pilot turned red and woke up.

IP never said a word. He kept his mouth shut and let the kid learn.

If he hadn't been in the right seat, I don't know if I'd be here today. I thanked him later in private back at the floatplane base away from the young pilot. He smiled and nodded and said something to the effect of, "I spent a lot of years keeping students from killing me, didn't think today was a good day to ignore the signs."

Only the three of us ever knew it happened. If I weren't a pilot, I wouldn't have noticed or seen anything but the beep of the stall horn.

Anyone sitting right seat who needs to make a big deal out of being PIC, is trying too hard.

Old IP taught me a lot about being a courteous right-seater that day, too. Sit there, shut up, and help save everyone's ass when the left-seater makes a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes eventually.

If you can do it without making it obvious, Good Samaritan points for you. If I weren't a pilot and watching, I'd have never known what he did that day.

 

[CBeaulieu]

99.75% of the times I've left the ground for the sky I've had controls in front of me. Not having it does freak me out a bit - airliners included - especially those damn regionals.

Before I was rated I would jump in an airplane with anyone and not think twice. Now I am very particular about who I fly with and in what conditions. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Whenever I fly with another pilot, I'm constantly monitoring and keeping an eye on what they're doing, even if they're way more experienced than me. I've turned into a wimp I guess. I'm good about keeping my mouth shut as a pax but I have spoken up a few times. Once I went flying with a new-pilot friend of mine. The winds weren't strong, but we had a good x-wind due to the main runways being closed. He didn't once attempt to compensate for wind while on final and allowed us to get pushed wherever the wind wanted us to. I said "don't let the plane fly you" and he smartened up and made a decent landing. Afterwards I felt as though I was out of place in doing so, but it was my arse on the line, too.


There are a few guys who I trust 100% - I don't watch them to babysit, but to learn from them.

I hate sitting in the back, too.

 

[Inverted]

Anytime you are the highest rated pilot in an aircraft, no matter where you sit, there is a chance you could be held liable. This is why whenever I go flying, if the PIC doesn't establish clear roles for the pilots on board then I will jump in. It is the briefing before that usually screws everyone in the aftermath of a legal battle. One of the things you always here is the lack of a briefing to clearly establish who was PIC.

The instructor who got busted for being in the back seat if I remember correctly had 2 students up front.

 

[Jaybird180]

This is an example of good discussion that only experience can teach.

 

[Inverted]

Before I was rated I would jump in an airplane with anyone and not think twice. Now I am very particular about who I fly with and in what conditions. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Me too. The need and love to fly blocked a lot of judgement, I always considered it unique, or cool, or unusual to fly in something I probably shouldn't have haha. Now I am very judgmental about who I fly with, or what I fly in. It is also amazing what a starving flight instructor will do for a paycheck.

 

[Everskyward]

About 20 years ago I had a gear-up incident caused by a mechanical failure. I was getting an instrument proficiency check at the time from a CFI who had never been in the airplane before that flight. I was clearly the PIC and the FAA did not ask to speak with her or even ask her name.

 

[poadeleted20]

Anytime you are the highest rated pilot in an aircraft, no matter where you sit, there is a chance you could be held liable.

If you're speaking of being found liable in civil court for damages after an accident, that is possible. But the FAA won't hold you accountable if you weren't acting as a crewmember.

This is why whenever I go flying, if the PIC doesn't establish clear roles for the pilots on board then I will jump in. It is the briefing before that usually screws everyone in the aftermath of a legal battle. One of the things you always here is the lack of a briefing to clearly establish who was PIC.

Always a good idea regardless of FAA or civil court possibilities. After all, it's your butt, not just your ticket or assets at risk.

The instructor who got busted for being in the back seat if I remember correctly had 2 students up front.

If an instructor sits in the back without controls with two Student Pilots up front, s/he is violating 91.105(a)(1) and deserves to be "busted." If the instructor is occupying the back seat while giving training to someone PIC-qualified in the front (say, because s/he doesn't have a medical and is giving instrument training while a qualified safety pilot occupies the other control seat), the FAA will apply the Hamre doctrine and hold the instructor accountable for anything that happens.

But the case I heard of where the instructor was asleep in the back when the plane crashed and was found liable in civil court involved a fully qualified Private Pilot who owned the airplane acting as PIC and operating the aircraft -- the instructor was agreed to be only a passenger, and the FAA took no action against him. It was only the civil court jury which held the instructor liable on the grounds that he "should have known" that the Private Pilot wasn't up to the task at hand and negligently failed in that duty to be careful.

 

[Inverted]

If you're speaking of being found liable in civil court for damages after an accident, that is possible. But the FAA won't hold you accountable if you weren't acting as a crewmember.

Yes I should have specified that is specifically civil liability.

 

[CBeaulieu]

Me too. The need and love to fly blocked a lot of judgement, I always considered it unique, or cool, or unusual to fly in something I probably shouldn't have haha. Now I am very judgmental about who I fly with, or what I fly in. It is also amazing what a starving flight instructor will do for a paycheck.

I didn't think I was the only one! ~

I haven't really thought about what i fly in as I know the mechanics who do the work on most of the aircraft I have flown. Interesting thought though...I'm bound to run into that scenario eventually.

Not sure I am interested in ever obtaining my CFI ticket. I have seen a lot of the students around here fly, and it isn't pretty. Also - the local FSDO seems to get a kick out of failing young men in particular on their first attempt. I'd hate to have a failed checkride on my application for a flying job.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes I should have specified that is specifically civil liability.

...which is a thoroughly unpredictable situation involving 12 idiots snatched off the street who think "little airplanes" are death traps and anyone who flies them is crazy. :wink2:

 

[MBDiagMan]

When you are flying with an instructor for a fun flight an not an instructional flight, (like taking an instructor friend flying) do you tell them to obey the rules of the copilot? (Sit down, don't touch anything unless I tell you you can.)

I've been taking some of my CFI acquaintances flying in the Mooney and one of them told me if there was an emergency he would take control of the airplane and handle the emergency. I asked him how much Mooney time he has? "0" How many emergencies have you had? "0" "So why do you think I should let you handle a potential emergency?" Says I, but he insisted he could handle it better. I told him he could sit in the back seat so he couldn't touch anything and I'd put my other friend in the front, but he said he would only fly with me if he could sit in the front and be PIC. I told him there was no reason I had to take him flying at all if he was going to be a turd, so he stayed on the ground and another friend got a Mooney ride.


Has anyone else experienced arrogance like this from a flight instructor before? (Or am I the one being arrogant?)

Dave,

I think you made a good call. None of us KNOW FOR SURE if we can keep our head in an emergency until we have had to ACTUALLY deal with an emergency. It doesn't matter if someone has 50,000 hours, although it would probably be impossible to fly that long without dealing with some emergencies. If they have never dealt with a real emergency, there is no way for them to KNOW how they will react.

YOU are battle tested. He is NOT.

Sorry to be harsh, but that's the way I see it.

 

[Marauder]

Great topic! I have a good friend who is a CFII and flies with me occasionally. I am very clear on who is the PIC and if we are flying IFR, I often will use him in my CRM effort. Why not? He is there and can be useful.

On occasion I will fly with a new CFII for an IPC (or just to check I haven't picked up bad habits). On one flight I had an experienced CFII flying with me. He felt he knew everything about flying, including all the specifics about my airplane. Anyone who flies an older Mooney will appreciate this scenario. My Mooney has low gear and flap speeds. This makes it challenging to fly approaches unless I get the plane slowed down enough to begin a stabilized approach.

The CFII and I briefed on the approach and I informed him that I intended to get the plane slowed down a bit farther out than I expected he was accustomed to (I knew the majority of the instrument training he was doing was in 172s). He told me that slowing down that far out was "ridiculous" and that he wanted me to fly about 20 knots faster than VLo and VFe. I suspected he thought by cutting the power, he would be able to slow it down. We are about a mile outside of the FAF and he asks me to begin to cut the power to approach speed. It didn't take long before he realized that slowing down just wasn't going to happen. He then asks me to pull up while cutting the power even more!

I told him that my Mooney wasn't a trainer and that we should fly the miss and allow me to setup the plane correctly. Instructor became student... It's easy to defer the responsibility when faced with someone who on paper has more experience. More experience doesn't always equate to more competency though.

 

[sdflyer]

I tend not to instruct in airplanes which I have never flown. It's just a common sense. I do fly on occasion with a friend who own Bonanza, but I make it clear that he is PIC since I'm not quite familiar with this airplane

 

[Ted]

One of the traits that comes up in the 500 hour range is that most pilots still don't have enough experience to realize how much they don't know, but are starting to get enough experience that they have a clue about a thing or two. This causes a position where you get the described phenomenon.

From there, it goes one of two directions:

1) I know everything! And you get people with high hours who refuse to realize what they don't know
2) Pilots who know enough to know that they know some things, and don't know a lot more

 

[bflynn]

Some people think that, because they have that magical piece of paper that says "CFI", they know everything and are automatically the best pilot in the plane.

I know a lot of pilots without a CFI certificate that think that way.


I'm not sure why it should be a question. Of everyone, I would expect an instructor to understand most clearly the need for one PIC and that it should be the person flying the airplane.

 

[Everskyward]

Great topic! I have a good friend who is a CFII and flies with me occasionally. I am very clear on who is the PIC and if we are flying IFR, I often will use him in my CRM effort. Why not? He is there and can be useful.

On occasion I will fly with a new CFII for an IPC (or just to check I haven't picked up bad habits). On one flight I had an experienced CFII flying with me. He felt he knew everything about flying, including all the specifics about my airplane. Anyone who flies an older Mooney will appreciate this scenario. My Mooney has low gear and flap speeds. This makes it challenging to fly approaches unless I get the plane slowed down enough to begin a stabilized approach.

The CFII and I briefed on the approach and I informed him that I intended to get the plane slowed down a bit farther out than I expected he was accustomed to (I knew the majority of the instrument training he was doing was in 172s). He told me that slowing down that far out was "ridiculous" and that he wanted me to fly about 20 knots faster than VLo and VFe. I suspected he thought by cutting the power, he would be able to slow it down. We are about a mile outside of the FAF and he asks me to begin to cut the power to approach speed. It didn't take long before he realized that slowing down just wasn't going to happen. He then asks me to pull up while cutting the power even more!

I told him that my Mooney wasn't a trainer and that we should fly the miss and allow me to setup the plane correctly. Instructor became student... It's easy to defer the responsibility when faced with someone who on paper has more experience. More experience doesn't always equate to more competency though.

I think that CFIs need to think hard about altering someone else's technique if that technique seems to be working out OK for them. It's a different mindset than teaching someone from scratch. Questions or suggestions are fine but calling someone's technique "ridiculous" is over the top especially if the CFI is not familiar with that particular airplane.

 

[jesse]

I think that CFIs need to think hard about altering someone else's technique if that technique seems to be working out OK for them. It's a different mindset than teaching someone from scratch. Questions or suggestions are fine but calling someone's technique "ridiculous" is over the top especially if the CFI is not familiar with that particular airplane.

+1 -- I'm very different teaching a primary student of mine that has 30 hours compared to giving a flight review to someone that might have a thousand hours or whatever number.

To be honest all the hour stuff is just stupid. I've seen terrible pilots in any hour range and don't pay it any attention when evaluating a pilot at any level.

 

[Henning]

Pretty simple, you tell him the day he buys the plane and insurance he can determine who is PIC. Until then as the operator of the aircraft the FARs say it's up to you to assign PIC.

 

[Ted]

I know a lot of pilots without a CFI certificate that think that way.


I'm not sure why it should be a question. Of everyone, I would expect an instructor to understand most clearly the need for one PIC and that it should be the person flying the airplane.

Comes down to ego, admitting what one does not know, and a bit of general fear.

 

[sdflyer]

Comes down to ego, admitting what one does not know, and a bit of general fear.

I bet majority memorized hazardous attitudes for the test, but only few actually put in practical use :wink2:

 

[GCA319]

Before I was rated I would jump in an airplane with anyone and not think twice. Now I am very particular about who I fly with and in what conditions. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Whenever I fly with another pilot, I'm constantly monitoring and keeping an eye on what they're doing, even if they're way more experienced than me. I've turned into a wimp I guess. I'm good about keeping my mouth shut as a pax but I have spoken up a few times. Once I went flying with a new-pilot friend of mine. The winds weren't strong, but we had a good x-wind due to the main runways being closed. He didn't once attempt to compensate for wind while on final and allowed us to get pushed wherever the wind wanted us to. I said "don't let the plane fly you" and he smartened up and made a decent landing. Afterwards I felt as though I was out of place in doing so, but it was my arse on the line, too.


There are a few guys who I trust 100% - I don't watch them to babysit, but to learn from them.

I hate sitting in the back, too.

One of the most incompetent pilots I have ever flown with exceeded my flight time by about 1,000 hours.

 

[GCA319]

I tend not to instruct in airplanes which I have never flown. It's just a common sense. I do fly on occasion with a friend who own Bonanza, but I make it clear that he is PIC since I'm not quite familiar with this airplane

There are a few exceptions to this rule that I will make, but for the most part I'm the same way. For instance, if somebody were to call me for a Bonanza or Mooney checkout, I'll happily refer them to somebody who could better serve them.

 

[GCA319]

One of the traits that comes up in the 500 hour range is that most pilots still don't have enough experience to realize how much they don't know, but are starting to get enough experience that they have a clue about a thing or two. This causes a position where you get the described phenomenon.

From there, it goes one of two directions:

1) I know everything! And you get people with high hours who refuse to realize what they don't know
2) Pilots who know enough to know that they know some things, and don't know a lot more

I'm right around that mark and I'm 100% clueless

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Heck even I have more Mooney time than that guy!

(Long Story)

Good for you, David. I find that the more "varied" aviation stuff I do, and, the more pilot passengers I have (including CFI's), the more I learn.

Unfortunately, I have found out - as you have - that not all of them are gems.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Has anyone else experienced arrogance like this from a flight instructor before? (Or am I the one being arrogant?)

You were 100% correct. Your airplane, your rules. A few years back I took a BFR with a young CFI who seemed convinced that the magic CFI certificate was proof he was God's gift to aviation. I kept my mouth shut throughout the experience and got his signature, he was really proud of his "over five hundred hours". I wanted to tell him I had more time than that in run-ups, but I was a good boy.

 

[matthammer]

On the topic of right-seater liability: A local examiner was telling me about a crash that happened recently involving a rejected landing in (IIRC) a Duchess. The pilot in the right seat was acting as safety pilot while the pilot in the left seat practiced instrument work for currency. During the landing the pilot in the left seat was no longer under a view limiting device, and so the right seater was no longer acting as safety pilot. The airplane touched down rough, prompting a rejected landing, but one engine lagged behind when the pilot advanced the throttles and he Vmc'd it in. The weird part is that the FAA told the pilot in the right seat he has the option of either giving up his multi-engine privileges without a fight or going for a 709 ride.

 

[Henning]

Personally I don't care, I'm in the pilots seat and I'll let them have it until I see them screwing up and getting low energy inappropriately distanced with regards to the threshold.

 

[Ted]

You were 100% correct. Your airplane, your rules. A few years back I took a BFR with a young CFI who seemed convinced that the magic CFI certificate was proof he was God's gift to aviation. I kept my mouth shut throughout the experience and got his signature, he was really proud of his "over five hundred hours". I wanted to tell him I had more time than that in run-ups, but I was a good boy.

He should've noticed from your logbook what your total time was, or did he not bother to look at it any?

 

[davidm767]

I agree with Ron...A CFI cert isnt the all hail to the chief. A CFI does have a few more hours practicing how not to die, but ultimately if its your aircraft and if you are PIC then thats enough. I have an aviation mentor (MCFI with 10,000+ hours of time) that has always consulted with me to verify I have the right decision in mind. If a real emergency took place (luckily only minor issues so far in my career) he is very clear that if I am PIC, then I am in control - With the caveat that he will do everything in his power to back me up.

 

[danhagan]

Wow! You guys fly with crappy CFI's!

My original PP CFI flys with me occasionally ... knows I have 300 hrs in my plane, but basically asks each time what I want him to do. I tell him act as co-pilot and exchange controls with my plane/your plane when he wants to fly. Since he trained me years ago, we both do the same flows and checks, meaning in a true emergency I'll be picking the field, best glide etc. and he'll be handling the radios and transponder then helping as needed (fire extinguisher, etc.).

Have had a few "minor" emergency type items, but have been solo for all but one of them.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

He should've noticed from your logbook what your total time was, or did he not bother to look at it any?

He did look at it. But his only comment was, "Oh, most of your time is helicopters huh?" (It was at that point, I had around 6k in rotors and probably only about 4500 fixed wing) And he asked how long I had owned the Comanche (about a year at that point).

 

[poadeleted20]

You were 100% correct. Your airplane, your rules.

There is one exception to that, and that is when receiving training from a CFI. The FAA and NTSB are on record as saying that short of the trainee doing something crazy so fast the instructor can't stop it, anything that happens on an instructional flight is on the instructor's head regardless of the trainee's experience level or qualifications in comparison to the instructor's. If you can't live with the instructor involved having final say over the operation of the aircraft, find another instructor you can accept as having that authority over you and your airplane.

For case law on point, see Administrator v Strobel and Administrator v Hamre.

 

[MBDiagMan]

There is one exception to that, and that is when receiving training from a CFI. The FAA and NTSB are on record as saying that short of the trainee doing something crazy so fast the instructor can't stop it, anything that happens on an instructional flight is on the instructor's head regardless of the trainee's experience level or qualifications in comparison to the instructor's. If you can't live with the instructor involved having final say over the operation of the aircraft, find another instructor you can accept as having that authority over you and your airplane.

For case law on point, see Administrator v Strobel and Administrator v Hamre.

Since David's issue did not involve an instructional flight, would this apply?

 

[poadeleted20]

Since David's issue did not involve an instructional flight, would this apply?

The Hamre doctrine applies only to instructional flights. I was responding to Threefingerjack's apparent assertion that the aircraft owner always has the say on who will have the final authority over the flight, as that is not true when the owner is receiving training from a CFI.

Our precedent makes clear that, "[r]egardless of who is manipulating the controls of the aircraft during an instructional flight, or what degree of proficiency the student has attained, the flight instructor is always deemed to be the pilot-incommand." Administrator v. Hamre, 3 NTSB 28, 31 (1977). This principle was reaffirmed in Administrator v. Walkup, 6 NTSB 36 (1988).

Emphasis added. However, there is neither case law nor regulatory language to suggest this applies other than to instructional flights.

BTW, it is interesting to note that the instructor will still be held responsible during an instructional flight even if the instructor is not actually acting as PIC because s/he does not hold a current medical certificate -- see Administrator v. Ridpath.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

The Hamre doctrine applies only to instructional flights. I was responding to Threefingerjack's apparent assertion that the aircraft owner always has the say on who will have the final authority over the flight, as that is not true when the owner is receiving training from a CFI.
Emphasis added. However, there is neither case law nor regulatory language to suggest this applies other than to instructional flights.

BTW, it is interesting to note that the instructor will still be held responsible during an instructional flight even if the instructor is not actually acting as PIC because s/he does not hold a current medical certificate -- see Administrator v. Ridpath.

Just for clarification, I posted my response in the context of the original post. In that context a passenger had informed the owner/PIC that in the event of an emergency the passenger would be assuming command. That is an unacceptable precondition for any passenger to make.