entering class D

[beechcraft flyer]

hello was vfr on flight following with approach my destination was clear with a few clouds 600 according to atis, as i saw a broken layer i descended at this point i noticed i was very close to class d airspace at another airport my destination airport is class c that briefly overlaps the adjacent class d airport. Still on with approach i immediately climbed to avoid the class d at the adjacent airport, its top of the ring is 2500 ft, i was at 2500 ft when the class d ring was directly below my aircraft , i went on flight ware to see my path and it shows me at 2500 ft on top of the ring, the ring was exactly below the rear seats of the plane , the class c ring i was not in at my destination it was 1/2 mile off my right wing before entering . i proceeded to another airport still on approach control with a squawk code , approach never said a word etc as i climbed to 5500 ft , But to be safe i filed an nasa safety report any thoughts on this thanks,

 

[flyingron]

If you were talking to ATC you shouldn't have had to worry about the class D. The controller is not supposed to let you wander into another controllers area of responsibility without taking care of it (not to say that it doesn't happen). Often the approach control has some responsibility for pieces of the class D anyhow.

 

[beechcraft flyer]

What is defined as entering i was at the same height of the class d ring , actually may have been 25ft or more above or below so what's defined as "entering" ? below 2500 at 2500? . flightware only shows 100ft increments

 

[luvflyin]

hello was vfr on flight following with approach my destination was clear with a few clouds 600 according to atis, as i saw a broken layer i descended at this point i noticed i was very close to class d airspace at another airport my destination airport is class c that briefly overlaps the adjacent class d airport. Still on with approach i immediately climbed to avoid the class d at the adjacent airport, its top of the ring is 2500 ft, i was at 2500 ft when the class d ring was directly below my aircraft , i went on flight ware to see my path and it shows me at 2500 ft on top of the ring, the ring was exactly below the rear seats of the plane , the class c ring i was not in at my destination it was 1/2 mile off my right wing before entering . i proceeded to another airport still on approach control with a squawk code , approach never said a word etc as i climbed to 5500 ft , But to be safe i filed an nasa safety report any thoughts on this thanks,

What flyingron said above. All kinds of pros and cons about that. There have been numerous many page threads about that here. But the thing that caught my eye was the climb you made to avoid some lines and some numbers on a Chart. You had descended to stay underneath some clouds. When you made that climb, did you stay 500 feet below them?

 

[luvflyin]

What is defined as entering i was at the same height of the class d ring , actually may have been 25ft or more above or below so what's defined as "entering" ? below 2500 at 2500? . flightware only shows 100ft increments

If it says [25] it's 2500. If it says [-25] it's up to but not including 2500. Where was this? There may be some other pertinent things here about hierarchy of airspace that apply you may be interested in. Are you familiar with that term?

 

[RyanB]

Keep in mind, FlightAware shows pressure altitudes, so there might be some variation between the altitude you observed and what’s recorded.

 

[beechcraft flyer]

What flyingron said above. All kinds of pros and cons about that. There have been numerous many page threads about that here. But the thing that caught my eye was the climb you made to avoid some lines and some numbers on a Chart. You had descended to stay underneath some clouds. When you made that climb, did you stay 500 feet below them?

The clouds at the destination were broken 5 miles a way i was vfr with no clouds around me , my destination 5 miles away had a broken layer that looked to be 1500 ft i was at 2200ft and did not want to take a chance landing after the climb from 2200 ft at 2500ft i was on top of the adjacent airport class d ring and notified atc would like to cancel my arrival to my destination do to weather and proceed vfr flight following elsewhere. He asked if i wanted to file ifr and proceed with the landing i said no and remained with him for an additional 20 miles till handed off with another approach controller

 

[Timbeck2]

Nothing to worry about. Nothing at all. You were with approach at the time and what you didn't hear was the approach controller point you out with the class D tower.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Generally, there are two things going on here. One is ATC's responsibilities to coordinate transit. This is what the ATC handbook (Order 7110.65) says this is part of ATC's responsibilities.

The other is related. We are required, according to the reg, to "establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services." The reg doesn't say "with the control tower." When it comes to airspace close to the altitude border between TRACON and Class D, we actually don't know which ATC facility is providing Class D services. A number have already mentioned Letters of Agreement. There are agreements in place between TRACON and Class D about who controls what. My best example is a cross country with a student. We were not using flight following and were going to transit a Class D area about 500' below the Class D ceiling. My student called the Tower for permission to transit. Tower's response? "Call Approach."

 

[luvflyin]

Generally, there are two things going on here. One is ATC's responsibilities to coordinate transit. This is what the ATC handbook (Order 7110.65) says this is part of ATC's responsibilities.
View attachment 108507

The other is related. We are required, according to the reg, to "establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services." The reg doesn't say "with the control tower." When it comes to airspace close to the altitude border between TRACON and Class D, we actually don't know which ATC facility is providing Class D services. A number have already mentioned Letters of Agreement. There are agreements in place between TRACON and Class D about who controls what. My best example is a cross country with a student. We were not using flight following and were going to transit a Class D area about 500' below the Class D ceiling. My student called the Tower for permission to transit. Tower's response? "Call Approach."

Do you have the Supreme Shysters opinion handy?

 

[beechcraft flyer]

when i was at 2500ft the class c ring of airport A (destination) was 1 nm away its outer ring limits are 2500-4200 my destination at Airport A was 11 miles away i was on top of the adjacent class d airspace of airport B which upper limit is 2500 ft i was on approach control at the time so that way i was cleared thru class c airspace , So the area of concern is " being in contact with approach to be cleared into class c 1 mile away and the adjacent airport ring of class d partially overlays the class c of destination the top of class d at airport A is 2500 the bottom of class c ring of destination is 2500 i was at 2500 ". Even if i was not on any flight following or radar contact if i was at 2500ft and the ring at class d is 2500 was that "entering airspace without authorization" ? And since i was on approach with a transponder code i was transitioning into class c airspace

 

[luvflyin]

when i was at 2500ft the class c ring of airport A (destination) was 1 nm away its outer ring limits are 2500-4200 my destination at Airport A was 11 miles away i was on top of the adjacent class d airspace of airport B which upper limit is 2500 ft i was on approach control at the time so that way i was cleared thru class c airspace , So the area of concern is " being in contact with approach to be cleared into class c 1 mile away and the adjacent airport ring of class d partially overlays the class c of destination the top of class d at airport A is 2500 the bottom of class c ring of destination is 2500 i was at 2500 ". Even if i was not on any flight following or radar contact if i was at 2500ft and the ring at class d is 2500 was that "entering airspace without authorization" ? And since i was on approach with a transponder code i was transitioning into class c airspace

Not sure if I have the complete picture here. Will you tell us where it was so we can look at the Chart. But, if the Floor of the C is 2500, any overlapping D is effectively up to but not including 2500, regardless of the D altitude on the Chart. The D could say [25] or even higher. But by hierarchy of airspace rules, you are in C and C rules apply.

 

[beechcraft flyer]

 

[Palmpilot]

It doesn't show beneath the redaction, but the chart explicitly says [-25] for the top of the class D.

 

[beechcraft flyer]

Please explain the -25 I am aware of the 25 but the - I am not

 

[Larry in TN]

Please explain the -25 I am aware of the 25 but the - I am not

The "-" means "up to, but not including".

 

[midlifeflyer]

Do you have the Supreme Shysters opinion handy?

Which one? There's the one from 2006 in which the Chief Counsel said speaking with Center doesn't salsify the Class C communication requirement. Then there's the one from 2011 in which, pointing to language in the Point 65, the Chief Counsel said, based in part on language from the Point 65, said, "A pilot that departs from a satellite airport within Class C airspace and establishes and maintains two-way radio communications with the control tower is compliant with § 91.130(c)(2)(i)."

The Chief in the second one mentions the first and says the situations are different. Maybe. Maybe not. But I have my opinion which is closer to the scenario we are discussing. YMMV.

 

[luvflyin]

Which one? There's the one from 2006 in which the Chief Counsel said speaking with Center doesn't salsify the Class C communication requirement. Then there's the one from 2011 in which, pointing to language in the Point 65, the Chief Counsel said, based in part on language from the Point 65, said, "A pilot that departs from a satellite airport within Class C airspace and establishes and maintains two-way radio communications with the control tower is compliant with § 91.130(c)(2)(i)."

The Chief in the second one mentions the first and says the situations are different. Maybe. Maybe not. But I have my opinion which is closer to the scenario we are discussing. YMMV.

Granby. It was about C. But 91.130(c)(1) and 91.129(c)(1) are identical. Bacons departing a Satellite Airport thing isn't what's happening in this threads scenario.

 

[luvflyin]

The "-" means "up to, but not including".

And you can find +'s that mean down to but not including. Look at New Yorks B south of JFK

 

[luvflyin]

It doesn't show beneath the redaction, but the chart explicitly says [-25] for the top of the class D.

Over the last few years they've done a lot of that - stuff so you don't have to apply hierarchy of airspace rules. Even 'sectorizing' a lot of D's with different altitudes. But they haven't done it everywhere yet. In your neighborhood is Moffett KNUQ. You still have to apply hierarchy in the North part of it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Granby. It was about C. But 91.130(c)(1) and 91.129(c)(1) are identical. Bacons departing a Satellite Airport thing isn't what's happening in this threads scenario.

The connection I see is specific language in the ATC manual about ATC's (and the pilot's) role. But as I said earlier, YMMV. If you decide the risk is too great and choose to ask to make sure, that's OK even though I don't.

BTW, I do see a difference between transiting through a Class D and landing at the Class D airport.

 

[Sac Arrow]

There is a gotcha here. In theory, if you are in two way communication with ATC then you are cleared through Class D unless they tell you otherwise. BUT, sometimes approach has jurisdiction through a given Class D, and sometimes they don't. Pilots don't know this. Case in point: Approach does not govern a Class D and they give instructions to the pilot 'stay at or above 2,500 feet.' You descend below that, you have violated Class D airspace. If they did have jurisdiction in that airspace, you just were sloppy at maintaining altitude.

That very scenario bit someone here a while back.

 

[luvflyin]

The connection I see is specific language in the ATC manual about ATC's role. But as I said earlier, YMMV. If you decide the rusk is too great and choose to ask to make sure, that's OK even though I don't.

Yeah. FAA just can't seem to get their stuff in one bag on this. Common practice conflicts with Letter of Law. Result is pilots trying to comply sometimes get some pretty snotty lectures from Controllers who seem to think pilots should somehow know all their internal rules, just for asking for verification.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Case in point: Approach does not govern a Class D and they give instructions to the pilot 'stay at or above 2,500 feet.' You descend below that, you have violated Class D airspace

Independent of the Class D issue, you are describing a deviation from 91.123 by failing to comply with an ATC clearance.

 

[Clip4]

Which one? There's the one from 2006 in which the Chief Counsel said speaking with Center doesn't salsify the Class C communication requirement. Then there's the one from 2011 in which, pointing to language in the Point 65, the Chief Counsel said, based in part on language from the Point 65, said, "A pilot that departs from a satellite airport within Class C airspace and establishes and maintains two-way radio communications with the control tower is compliant with § 91.130(c)(2)(i)."

The Chief in the second one mentions the first and says the situations are different. Maybe. Maybe not. But I have my opinion which is closer to the scenario we are discussing. YMMV.

The two situations are substantially different and the regulations state each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace not any ATC facility providing service.

 

[Clip4]

Please explain the -25 I am aware of the 25 but the - I am not

It means not including and may indicate overlapping B or C airspace. When overlapping airspace designations apply to the same airspace, the operating rules associated with the more restrictive airspace designation apply.

 

[flyingron]

Yep, that was NOT supposed to happen anymore but the FAA screws up from time to time so they put that contingency. One of the justifications to going to the alphabet namespace was that uncharted and overlapping airspace would go away. Unfortunately, the fAA lies about everything.

 

[Shawn]

There is a gotcha here. In theory, if you are in two way communication with ATC then you are cleared through Class D unless they tell you otherwise

That is not quite correct regulatory speaking but the context of you answer is. I used to be in the "If you are on FF your are authorized to enter any Delta" camp but since learned that is not entirely correct.

Per the regs to enter Delta you must be in contact with the facility providing air traffic services to that airspace. Unlike Charlie where TRACON provides those services with Delta that lies with Tower and tower alone (absent an agreement but that is unknown to the pilot).

JO 7110.65 gets thrown around all the time and that states ATC should coordinate transitions. That however governs ATC...not pilots or the FARs and in the eyes of the FAA it is still the Pilot's responsibility to ensure they are in communication with the correct facility...yet pilot is never expedited to leave frequency and obtain authorization on their own. 7110.65 does not negate any part of 91.129 9(c) if the controller fails to follow through.

Now if part of your expected route it should be expected by the pilot that ATC will coordinate any traditions on your behalf, but that does not mean you can duck into any D just because you are on FF. There was even once a PD given by Tower at LVK because of a late handoff from NorCal and while it was nothing more than a talking to, FAA said it was on the pilot by the letter of the law even though Approach screwed up in not coordinating or handing off prior to entry.

So what is the legally correct answer if you are not 100% confident Approach has coordinated on your behalf or has jurisdiction in that airspace via an agreement and you about to enter Delta?: "NorCal, Sklyane 345 confirm Delta transition"...

But for the love of God...don't ask for a "clearance" into Delta!

Now to the context of the OP...ATC is not looking to bust pilots just to bust them. Even if you did inadvertently enter D and they saw you made a correction and it did not cause any loss of separation or other issue..they are really not looking to add to their workload for the day. If you did not have any contact from Approach or Tower regarding a bust when you hit your destination...nobody cared.