Engineer Ted's How to Make Your Engine Last (ground)

el con said:
That's a better idea:idea:
I'll look into one of those,thanks.
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To add to this
A trouble light already has an ext. cord attached and the heat from it rises right up where the gauges are. Maybe less of a safety issue.
I think the warning on the fan heater was in general for people that might use wimpy cords. Go with 12 gauge wire and its no different than the 50-100 ft of 12gauge running through the wall. Heck, most hangers wall plugs are probably 14 gauge. A tight duplex is needed so there is no arcing or resistance ,hence creating heat.
 
el con said:
Not doing it for me, I've heard a little heat on the Gauges (steam) when it's cold extends their life, not having them fail may extend my life:wink2:
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Frankly gyro instruments have gotten cheaper than a tank of fuel to replace lately. Unless it's an HSI. All the cool kids want glass. Which makes steam wonderfully affordable. :) Can even toss in some electric spares.
 
Here's the data sheet for a Sigma-Tek gyro. The temperature range is -30C to +50C.
 
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Bill Jennings said:
Actually those temps are C.
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Which makes it even better.

As I've said with engines, limits aren't goals. So I'd agree that warming the gyros up may help extend their life (or at least won't hurt them any), and warms your cabin. For me, I've never been comfortable with a cabin solution that I can leave unattended. The only gyros I've had fail were 25+ years old, so I think they did just fine. :)
 
Tannis sells the heated plates for the cabin floor. Similar to what gets epoxied to the oil sump.
 
denverpilot said:
Frankly gyro instruments have gotten cheaper than a tank of fuel to replace lately. Unless it's an HSI. All the cool kids want glass. Which makes steam wonderfully affordable. :) Can even toss in some electric spares.
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Yeah Glass is probably cool, I kinda like steam though(except my GPS). Guess I'm not cool.:(
Also I,d have to look up how cold effects my 40 year old gauges. Newer ones are probably built to withstand a wider temp range or maybe this whole temp thing is an old wive's tail.
 
tmyers said:
Tannis sells the heated plates for the cabin floor. Similar to what gets epoxied to the oil sump.
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That might be worth looking into, I didn't know about that. I need another probe from them anyway.
 
They list them on the website, but no real specs or pics of them. Not sure how they work with carpet though.
 
Just checked the website - they're out of production now, only supporting warranty claims. So much for that.
 
I've got a small ceramic spaceheater that goes under the panel. When I get to the hangar, I turn it on duringnthe preflight, etc. maybe 20-30 min. Warms everything up inside the cabin.
 
murphey said:
I've got a small ceramic spaceheater that goes under the panel. When I get to the hangar, I turn it on duringnthe preflight, etc. maybe 20-30 min. Warms everything up inside the cabin.
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Passengers really appreciate warmer leather seats than ICE COLD ones.
 
bnt83 said:
Passengers really appreciate warmer leather seats than ICE COLD ones.
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The sheepskin covers we have on the front 4 seats really help with that, too. Plus helps keep the leather looking good - seats look brand new on a 10 year old interior when you pull the covers off.
 
I know this is an old thread, but perhaps still relevant. Mike Busch likes to run Aeroshell 100 with Camguard in most of their fleet. I know you didn't study Aeroshell, but his thinking was the high viscosity makes it less likely to come off of the metal while in storage. any thoughts on that?
 
MIFlyer said:
I know this is an old thread, but perhaps still relevant. Mike Busch likes to run Aeroshell 100 with Camguard in most of their fleet. I know you didn't study Aeroshell, but his thinking was the high viscosity makes it less likely to come off of the metal while in storage. any thoughts on that?
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Mike Busch lives in SoCal last I checked, too, which is warm weather basically year round. I don't know what his flying patterns are like, but I don't think he traverses as much of the continent as some do.

It really depends on your operation profile profile. I run Aeroshell 15W-50 because I have a barrel of it that gets used year-round. I have starts in 20F weather without preheat, and I have starts in 95F weather after a short shutdown so I can fill up on fuel. In 20F weather without preheat, I want the multi-visc oil so that the oil gets pumping through the engine faster. For warm weather starts (cold or hot) then the straight weight is fine. The damage done by straight weight oil on cold starts is pretty significant and I've seen it first hand. The potential damage that Mike talks of I haven't seen evidence of in my own personal operations.

Also, straight Aeroshell 100 I don't believe has the corrosion inhibitors in it which are important as well for long term sitting. Aeroshell 15W-50 does. So that's another consideration.

I've run multi-visc oil in the aircraft I've been in charge of for the past 10 years, and don't plan on changing to straight weight. But if I lived in the south and operated strictly in the south, I might consider differently.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've run multi-visc oil in the aircraft I've been in charge of for the past 10 years, and don't plan on changing to straight weight. But if I lived in the south and operated strictly in the south, I might consider differently.
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I do live in the South (Atlanta) and can tell you there are plenty of freezing nights here and we generally have several nights a year of sub 20F lows. The lowest I've personally experienced was a low of -7F. You'd have to go pretty far South (like South Florida) to effectively get away from freezing temperatures. And then you'd be worried about the single weight oil if you went out of state during the Winter.
 
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kyleb said:
I do live in the South (Atlanta) and can tell you there are plenty of freezing nights here and we generally have several nights a year of sub-20F lows. The lowest I've personally experienced was a low of -7F. You'd have to go pretty far South (like South Florida) to effectively get away from freezing temperatures. And then you'd be worried about the single weight oil if you went out of state during the Winter.
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Like I said, "might consider differently." There are a lot of pilots who only fly on warm days and don't use their airplanes as travel machines, or at least not to travel very far (like out of state). In my case, the flying I do takes me to all corners of the country year round. I literally have taken off in 85F temps at the origin and come home to 10F temps. Also done 30F to -40F (although obviously I did use preheat for the -40F temps...).

Now if I lived on the Gulf, only flew if it was 40F or warmer, and never ventured far away, maybe I'd go with straight weight... maybe.

One of the things I point out is that preheat is not always readily available, or it may not work correctly. If you use one of the propane heaters it won't really heat the oil, just the cylinders. Or you might plug in your engines and have the circuit breaker blow (happened to me more than once). Are you really going to cancel your flight because it's 20F out and your preheater blew the breaker? I certainly wouldn't.

So for all of those reasons, I don't think the straight weight makes as much sense. The flying club I belonged to when I learned to fly only used straight weight (as I recall it was only 100, although they might have also had 80 it's been a while). They also had a heated hangar and most of the club members only flew locally. I was the rare member who actually put hours on the airplanes, and got yelled at for flying them too much.
 
Radar Contact said:
Ted,

I see years ago when you originally wrote this you said this...

...and now you say this...

Just curious your reason for the change?
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Good question! There are a few reasons.

Phillips has no additives for corrosion protection, it's just a straight multi-weight oil. As I said, I was running Philips XC + CamGuard in the 310. This got pretty annoying because you have to measure the amount of CamGuard you put in to get the ratios correct. What ended up happening would be I'd dump one bottle of CamGuard in when I did the oil change, and then not put any more in until I changed the oil again. Fine if you don't burn any oil (and the 310 didn't burn much), but then the advantages start to disappear as the ratios decrease. So really it was a hassle and I wasn't convinced was truly benefiting the engines. Unless you fly all the time (like Cape Air does), I don't recommend Philips without CamGuard just because of its lack of corrosion inhibitors.

Aeroshell has corrosion inhibitors built-in, so while you can add CamGuard, there isn't the same need to as with Philips. As 15W-50, it has a slightly better spread and thus theoretically a bit better cold weather starting capabilities.

Aeroshell is also a sponsor of Cloud Nine, they donated the drum of oil. But as I always say, I only go after donations of products and from companies that I believe in. :)
 
well....if Aeroshell donated a drum of oil to "Bo jangles" flying....I'd probably think the world of them too. :D


...until then, it's Phillips XC with Camguard for me.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
well....if Aeroshell donated a drum of oil to "Bo jangles" flying....I'd probably think the world of them too. :D

...until then, it's Phillips XC with Camguard for me.
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Well, I asked one company for an oil donation - Shell. Like I said, I only go after sponsorships from the companies who make products I want in the plane.
 
I've been an A&P/I.A. for about 14 years, but I have never had the time to read through forums until now. This is interesting and I want to add some additional thoughts.

I agree with Ted about everything he has stated so far as to preserving engines, oil viscosity, pre-heating, and moisture control. However, there is one more thing that a LOT of owners, A&P's, commercial operators, etc. miss when considering engine oil and maintaining an engine for the "Long Haul" to overhaul.

Most owners (not all) will simply add oil to a piston engine without considering WHY they are adding oil, and that is an issue in my opinion. Simply put, engine oil should be considered a "Component" of the entire engine, such as a magneto, carburetor/fuel servo, etc. When checking engine oil if it appears to be grey/black and clearly used (in my experience this begins to occur between 25 and 35 hours after oil changes), the oil is being "used" by the engine in some manner.

Question this.... WHY is the oil being used? HMMMMMM...... maybe you haven't considered this? Think of this exercise like a magneto. When magneto drops become excessive you repair the magneto.... when engine oil burn is increasing perhaps the oil has lost some of its properties from new. The property of the oil DOES change over time (both calendar and hourly working time), that is why we change oil.

Lycoming recommendations are a 50 hour oil change. However, that is a recommendation and should be not be considered the maintenance gospel. After an oil change, it is common to see oil "Consumption" until the oil level stabilizes (with a couple of hours). This consumption is typically (Not always) blown over out of the crankcase vent. In my experience Lycoming engines like to run at the lower side of the oil levels, but will run about 25 to 35 hours depending on the overall engine health before they begin to ACTUALLY burn oil. This isn't simply pumping oil overboard, but can be caused by the oil losing its viscosity. Basically, between 25 and 35 hours, the becomes less effective.

I HIGHLY recommend to my clients that they change their oil any time when they see 1) Dark coloration of the oil AND 2) When they need to add oil. I recommend that they drain the old oil and put fresh oil back into the engine. This maintains the properties of the oil and provides good lubricating properties throughout the engine life.

I have used this practice in the past at a helicopter flight school. We operated 12 helicopters total and flew an average of 600 hours per helicopter per year. In 4 years and a combined total of approximately 28,000 flight hours later I never changed a single cylinder; never had a stuck valve; and EVERY engine made TBO. I'm not contributing that ALL to the practices with oil changes, but I FEEL (cannot verify) that it certainly helped.

I now this is an old thread, but I'm new here and wanted to put my two cents in somewhere. Fly safe.... BUY OIL! :)
 
Michael Dixon said:
I've been an A&P/I.A. for about 14 years, but I have never had the time to read through forums until now. This is interesting and I want to add some additional thoughts.

I agree with Ted about everything he has stated so far as to preserving engines, oil viscosity, pre-heating, and moisture control. However, there is one more thing that a LOT of owners, A&P's, commercial operators, etc. miss when considering engine oil and maintaining an engine for the "Long Haul" to overhaul.

Most owners (not all) will simply add oil to a piston engine without considering WHY they are adding oil, and that is an issue in my opinion. Simply put, engine oil should be considered a "Component" of the entire engine, such as a magneto, carburetor/fuel servo, etc. When checking engine oil if it appears to be grey/black and clearly used (in my experience this begins to occur between 25 and 35 hours after oil changes), the oil is being "used" by the engine in some manner.

Question this.... WHY is the oil being used? HMMMMMM...... maybe you haven't considered this? Think of this exercise like a magneto. When magneto drops become excessive you repair the magneto.... when engine oil burn is increasing perhaps the oil has lost some of its properties from new. The property of the oil DOES change over time (both calendar and hourly working time), that is why we change oil.

Lycoming recommendations are a 50 hour oil change. However, that is a recommendation and should be not be considered the maintenance gospel. After an oil change, it is common to see oil "Consumption" until the oil level stabilizes (with a couple of hours). This consumption is typically (Not always) blown over out of the crankcase vent. In my experience Lycoming engines like to run at the lower side of the oil levels, but will run about 25 to 35 hours depending on the overall engine health before they begin to ACTUALLY burn oil. This isn't simply pumping oil overboard, but can be caused by the oil losing its viscosity. Basically, between 25 and 35 hours, the becomes less effective.

I HIGHLY recommend to my clients that they change their oil any time when they see 1) Dark coloration of the oil AND 2) When they need to add oil. I recommend that they drain the old oil and put fresh oil back into the engine. This maintains the properties of the oil and provides good lubricating properties throughout the engine life.

I have used this practice in the past at a helicopter flight school. We operated 12 helicopters total and flew an average of 600 hours per helicopter per year. In 4 years and a combined total of approximately 28,000 flight hours later I never changed a single cylinder; never had a stuck valve; and EVERY engine made TBO. I'm not contributing that ALL to the practices with oil changes, but I FEEL (cannot verify) that it certainly helped.

I now this is an old thread, but I'm new here and wanted to put my two cents in somewhere. Fly safe.... BUY OIL! :)
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If you were my mechanic I'd be changing my oil every 5 hours.
 
Michael Dixon said:
I have used this practice in the past at a helicopter flight school.
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FYI: All good points, however, recip engines in airplanes and helicopters operate in different environments with some of those differences having a direct effect on engine oil health and appearance. Keeping the oil "fresh" helps no matter what the application but the helicopter side has a huge step up on keeping the normal oil issues to a minimum when compared to plank wing machines.
 
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