Emergencies - VFR in the Clouds

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USAF-LT-G

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USAF-LT-G
Ok before ANYONE starts up the "What's this thread really about...." commentary.... Let me preface the topic by stating:

1) I AM NOT suggesting DOING any of the following

2) I have never DONE the following

3) I have never put myself in the situation described below where this was necessary

4) This is a completely HYPOTHETICAL ONLY question, the "what if"

5) This is INTENDED to only be a question for the purpose of addressing absolute emergency situations.

6) No one should EVER intentionally put themselves in a situation as the scenario (posed as a question) should ever occur.... proper flight planning, personal minimums, and proficiency should always be in place no matter what.

Ok, now that' I've clarified all that, and hopefully tamed the people ready to "pounce" and ask "why are you thinking about this...."

Let's, pose a real example. You're a VFR only pilot, you're on a long cross country somewhere... who knows where. You're filed, you're in the air halfway to your destination, you spot a layer and you decide to climb above. You maintain another hour in these conditions, and your fuel is running low and you're approaching BINGO..... Visibility is above 10SM, yet you see no holes to poke through as far as the eye can see. You're on Flight Following, but you're not IFR. You've got plenty of airports below... but they're below the ceiling you're riding on top of, and hell... let's just assume they're in IFR conditions as well.

Given all of the above or something similar (for which you should have never gotten yourself into in the first place). Is there ANYTIME or a situation like above, a VFR pilot can in an emergency be directed through a layer of clouds to some airport to get to safety. I am certain somewhere along the line, some moron pilot somewhere has found himself/herself in a situation like this. I'm just curious how the idiot pilot gets down without killing himself/herself and a potential of other people.

I can't stress again, the importance of never getting into this situation.... but, I'm SURE it's probably happened somewhere somehow. Just curious how the heck this works.
 
Yes, you can declare an emergency and get down or request an emergency descent through the clouds and ask for vectors to the nearest airport, maybe even a surveillance approach if possible.

There was a video on the AOPA site about some guy who basically got into the exact situation you describe. He actually ran OUT of fuel above a layer and had to get down.

Now if the fields below you are IFR, it depends on how low the clouds are as to whether or not it would be safe to even try an approach. But again, in an emergency with no fuel I guess you're headed down anyway.

Gonna have 'splaining to do to the FAA though as to why you continued above the clouds enroute rather that either:

1 - Stay below the layer
2 - Turn around.
 
There's a rule for this:

Section 91.3 (b), "In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency." Part 135 and 121 components of the FARs have similar language to allow the pilot in command to do whatever it takes to address the emergency at hand.
 
Caramon13 said:
Yes, you can declare an emergency and get down or request an emergency descent through the clouds and ask for vectors to the nearest airport, maybe even a surveillance approach if possible.
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Figured a ramp check would probable be justified..... although. "What if" the guy actually DID do proper flight planning, saw the layer, but saw that it was supossed to clear, blah blah, go to scattered, or something similar..... and he got there, and started trying to find a hole and couldn't find one, and then proceeded to run out of fuel and declared an emergency etc..... you think the pilot would still get called on a ramp check?
 
USAF-LT-G said:
Figured a ramp check would probable be justified..... although. "What if" the guy actually DID do proper flight planning, saw the layer, but saw that it was supossed to clear, blah blah, go to scattered, or something similar..... and he got there, and started trying to find a hole and couldn't find one, and then proceeded to run out of fuel and declared an emergency etc..... you think the pilot would still get called on a ramp check?
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No, not a ramp check. Should there be an investigation and the pilot survived then they would likely get a 709 checkride if they wished to keep their certificate. I'm thinking this situation is a little past the counseling level.
 
Sure, declare. The FAA (FSDO) might get ahold of the transcripts later on and question whether you did any planning for your destination weather though. If you didn't, you'd most likely get a letter of caution. Worst case, a 709.

Edit: I see you modified the original by stating you did do proper preflight and had good VFR forecasted. I doubt the FSDO would care. Still, you gotta use some common sense. Couple months ago I was VFR over the top at 10.5 with my destination forecasted good (SCT) VFR. About halfway down I checked with Indy Center for weather at my destination (CHA). They were VFR but overcast at 80. It sucked, but I turned back 40 miles, tucked under the overcast and went home at a bumpy 4.5 and lost my 30 kt tailwind. Declaring and emergency on arrival to get down would have been a bad choice. One of the rare times that I should kept my IFR currency.:(
 
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Absolutely, you can declare an emergency and descend through a cloud deck. You damn well had better be sure it's your only option, though, as nasty violent death is a very real possibility. Especially if the deck contains ice.

A 44709 ride would be entirely justified if you got yourself into that bad of a corner.

Unforecast undercast does happen, and the Air Safety Institute even has a video or two on it.
 
Using your AOA properly, you should be able to extend your bingo time by 15 hours and wait for a hole to punch through. Please research AOA indicators and the effectiveness on angle of attack as it relates to fuel burn in emergency situations.
 
Yes.

Heres what the Controllers book has to say about it.

10−2−8. RADAR ASSISTANCE TO VFR
AIRCRAFT IN WEATHER DIFFICULTY
a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when
it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather
conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and
capable of conducting IFR flight.
b. If the pilot states he/she is qualified for and
capable of IFR flight, request him/her to file an IFR
flight plan and then issue clearance to destination
airport, as appropriate.
c. If the pilot states he/she is not qualified for or not
capable of conducting IFR flight, or if he/she refuses
to file an IFR flight plan, take whichever of the
following actions is appropriate:
1. Inform the pilot of airports where VFR
conditions are reported, provide other available
pertinent weather information, and ask if he/she will
elect to conduct VFR flight to such an airport.
2. If the action in subpara 1 above is not feasible
or the pilot declines to conduct VFR flight to another
airport, provide radar assistance if the pilot:
(a) Declares an emergency.
(b) Refuses to declare an emergency and you
have determined the exact nature of the radar services
the pilot desires.
3. If the aircraft has already encountered IFR
conditions, inform the pilot of the appropriate
terrain/obstacle clearance minimum altitude. If the
aircraft is below appropriate terrain/obstacle clearance
minimum altitude and sufficiently accurate
position information has been received or radar
identification is established, furnish a heading or
radial on which to climb to reach appropriate
terrain/obstacle clearance minimum altitude.
 
USAF-LT-G said:
Figured a ramp check would probable be justified..... although. "What if" the guy actually DID do proper flight planning, saw the layer, but saw that it was supossed to clear, blah blah, go to scattered, or something similar..... and he got there, and started trying to find a hole and couldn't find one, and then proceeded to run out of fuel and declared an emergency etc..... you think the pilot would still get called on a ramp check?
Click to expand...

They have an affliction that describes that situation: get-there-itis

Been there, ALMOST done that. There's no way the guy would have done the proper flight planning and missed a solid layer. Those don't just appear out of thin air, well they do, but its usually documented ahead of time or at least updated en-route.

And the FAA would probably have questions like, did you contact FSS en-route to check weather conditions if you even suspected they would degrade? Did you get the ATIS of nearby stations, what were the weather conditions reported? Etc...

Other questions like, why didn't you divert when you knew things weren't going to turn out the way you planned? Why not turn around? Why would you continue the flight and hope for something to change against all indications to the contrary with no fuel reserves to get to an alternate if you weren't ABSOLUTELY sure?

Do METARS lie? Yes, they do. But there are other things that can be used to figure out weather conditions.

Point is, with all the options, the pilot would probably need to come up with a really good reason why he got one briefing and relied solely on the contents of it and nothing else en-route.
 
Of course, all of this discussion of consequences with the FAA assumes you've either got enough instrument proficiency in your back pocket or you've got some good techniques to let the airplane do the work, and you actually survive.
 
mulligan said:
Using your AOA properly, you should be able to extend your bingo time by 15 hours and wait for a hole to punch through...
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I'm assuming this is meant as a joke. Extend your BINGO time by 15 hours? Even in the most leaned out conditions, at high altitude.... if you run out of fuel, you run out of fuel. A glide speed ain't gonna have you hanging on for 15 hours ;) If you're at WINCHESTER and past your BINGO, you have no business flying anymore :)
 
USAF-LT-G said:
I'm assuming this is meant as a joke. Extend your BINGO time by 15 hours? Even in the most leaned out conditions, at high altitude.... if you run out of fuel, you run out of fuel. A glide speed ain't gonna have you hanging on for 15 hours ;) If you're at WINCHESTER and past your BINGO, you have no business flying anymore :)
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Its a joke. Things like AOA, Chutes in Cirrus's, was a flight plan filed, are the go to punchlines around here. You can start any subject and those are going to come up.
 
luvflyin said:
Its a joke. Things like AOA, Chutes in Cirrus's, was a flight plan filed, are the go to punchlines around here. You can start any subject and those are going to come up.
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Or is it? I'm pretty sure I googled it and some CFII from Maui clearly explains how to get 15 hours out of your tank using AOA. So you tell me, joke, or life saving instrument and knowledge?
 
Unless you have knowledge of VFR area in front of you, don't go on top of a cloud deck. If you are already on top, turn around and go down somewhere where you came from where its VFR. Do you know how to find FSS frequencies for weather? They can tell you if an airport on your route is reporting scattered or clear. Then you can get down VFR there.

If you are flying along low under a cloud deck and you get really close to a cloud, DON'T go into it, go down, turn around and go back where it is VFR.
 
I hope I won't be out of ammo (Winchester) and over the top simultaneously. :D
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. No ammo and there goes your chance to shoot a hole in the clouds.
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Ooooo good idea. Should make a big air cannon like one of these and attach it to the plane..... INSTANT VFR!

60b6_airzooka.jpg
 
Could type a dissertation on this but won't.

Yes, given you end up in the knuckle head position, you could easily declare an emergency and descend. Not all controllers are created equal. You may be talking to a CFI with decades of flying experience like myself or someone who has literally never seen the inside of a cockpit and has no clue how an ILS actually works. Given a FLiB in wx difficulty, most facilities will try to find a pilot (if available) to come assist. A VFR only pilot descending through a solid layer to an airport that is IFR will have a very, very low chance of success. With VFR conditions below, it raises the success rate. I've had a guy JFK'ing down both directions as I kept trying to talk him through his instrument scan and attitude till he got to the bottoms and landed.
 
If I am low on fuel...f $%@& FAA I am declaring and if they don't give me a vector, I am choosing whatever airport I can find closest and head to words it, because u know... when my plane runs out of gas, it won't give a sheet about FAA

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USAF-LT-G said:
Absolutely, but.... the FAA doesn't give a S@#*! about Synthetic Vision when flying VFR lol.
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You will only be worried about FAA if u can land and walk away, I would be happy to make that phone call knowing that I survived. At that very moment...who cares about FAA or any other alphabet soup for that matter

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Right, thank your deity you are still alive. Then assume an air of absolute contrition, confess your sins, fly with a CFII to learn what could have been done better and you'll be better prepared to face the music.
 
Awesome... good read through, and I thought it was an interesting topic just out of pure curiosity and stimulating conversation. A lot of good stuff here.
 
This might be covered in some of the videos suggested, but...

A long time ago, before videos, the AOPA wrote up a procedure for the flying part (declaring an emergency is a no-brainer): Carb heat on (if present), throttle back to mag check RPM. Two notches of flaps or as close to it as you can get. Wings level with rudder, using attitude indicator and heading indicator for guidance. Trim for 70 knots or so and just sink into the clouds.

If you have ever ridden a bicycle really slow, you know that when it begins to fall to one side you push hard on the opposite pedal...that's why you use rudder rather than aileron to maintain wings level. except that in an airplane you use gentle pressure instead of a hard push.


And there is no longer a Flight Service frequency for weather...any FSS freq can be used. The works-everywhere freq is 122.2.

Bob
 
USAF-LT-G said:
Given all of the above or something similar (for which you should have never gotten yourself into in the first place). Is there ANYTIME or a situation like above, a VFR pilot can in an emergency be directed through a layer of clouds to some airport to get to safety. I am certain somewhere along the line, some moron pilot somewhere has found himself/herself in a situation like this. I'm just curious how the idiot pilot gets down without killing himself/herself and a potential of other people.

.
Click to expand...

JUST PULL!

Cirrus chute.jpe
 
And since no one mentioned... get an AOA...problem solved. Fixate on the donut and all's well

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coloradobluesky said:
Unless you have knowledge of VFR area in front of you, don't go on top of a cloud deck. If you are already on top, turn around and go down somewhere where you came from where its VFR. Do you know how to find FSS frequencies for weather? They can tell you if an airport on your route is reporting scattered or clear. Then you can get down VFR there.

If you are flying along low under a cloud deck and you get really close to a cloud, DON'T go into it, go down, turn around and go back where it is VFR.
Click to expand...


I have been VFR for just over a year but still really have not flown too far away from home because of my fear of getting caught in bad weather. This is something I need to get over and over time I hope that I do. (I mean trust the weather reports - i don't mean take chances) I have a question though from your comment:

If I am flying along and see cloud layers, before deciding to go over the top, do you now dial in 122.2, report where you are and ask them for the weather of airports you are looking to travel to? If they can tell you that it is scattered near the arrival airport then wouldn't I be good to go? Assuming in this case that general weather is fine and the we are just talking about cloud layers. I didn't get a lot of training on in-flight weather, to be honest, and since I got my license, I know that the frequency changed to 122.2 for weather. Please correct me on this...

Also, for those that use Stratus with Foreflight,does that update METARS and TAFS real time so you would even have to call for in flight weather?

Thanks,
Stephen
 
One scenario that can happen is you are flying along and you see a cloud bank coming. Lets say you choose to fly above it. Look ahead and the holes start to close, you start seeing if you can find an airport where you can descend that is reporting scattered or clear. Get your weather. If you dont have a VFR airport, then descend through a hole (large enough to maintain cloud clearances) if there is one, or turn around and descend back where you came from (that is VFR).

You can try 122.2. Ive had it not work. FSS is also depicted on some of the VOR compass rose's on the sectionals. FSS frequencies are in most GPS's databases, just where varies. They are also in the Airport Facilities Directory. And yes, if you have current METARs and TAFs from an electronic device, by all means use those. Just make sure to check to see the Zulu times are up to date! Carrying plenty of fuel helps. Don't want to start doing this stuff with minimal fuel.
 
OK so a follow up question from a newbie, if u have flight following, won't they warn u that there may be layer and divert?

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WannFly said:
OK so a follow up question from a newbie, if u have flight following, won't they warn u that there may be layer and divert?

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Click to expand...

From my experience... Generally no. Now, they will advise of severe weather on your flight path... But chances are if you're on flight following on a long cross country, you have several hand offs anyways, so unless you're close to your destination the controller you're talking to doesn't know a ton about your final destination unless it's in their area.


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bobmrg said:
A long time ago, before videos, the AOPA wrote up a procedure for the flying part (declaring an emergency is a no-brainer): Carb heat on (if present), throttle back to mag check RPM. Two notches of flaps or as close to it as you can get. Wings level with rudder, using attitude indicator and heading indicator for guidance. Trim for 70 knots or so and just sink into the clouds.

If you have ever ridden a bicycle really slow, you know that when it begins to fall to one side you push hard on the opposite pedal...that's why you use rudder rather than aileron to maintain wings level. except that in an airplane you use gentle pressure instead of a hard push.

Bob
Click to expand...
Depending on the vintage of the procedure, they also said to use the turn needle (not the ball, for those of you who still think the ball is a yaw instrument ;) ) as opposed to the attitude indicator to guide your rudder inputs.

Here's the 1957 video...
 
USAF-LT-G said:
From my experience... Generally no. Now, they will advise of severe weather on your flight path... But chances are if you're on flight following on a long cross country, you have several hand offs anyways, so unless you're close to your destination the controller you're talking to doesn't know a ton about your final destination unless it's in their area.


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Good to know, I always thought flight following is an additional safety net... guess not when it comes to weather

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WannFly said:
OK so a follow up question from a newbie, if u have flight following, won't they warn u that there may be layer and divert?

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Click to expand...

You're the PIC, your decision to continue. ATC will help if you request help, but if you get stuck on top you're going to have to let down thru it if it doesn't break up. YOU put yourself there so beware the consequences if ya get stuck.
 
I'm an IR pilot and part of a club that has an IFR certified 172 and a non IFR certified 150 (but it does have a single nav- no glideslope). I've had this same thought and if I got stuck on top in the 150 (placarded not for IFR - I guess it needs a transponder check) I'd declare an emergency so I could deviate from the FARs and get through the clouds. Declaring an emergency in that situation feels a little silly, but I don't think there would be another legal way to get down.
 
WannFly said:
OK so a follow up question from a newbie, if u have flight following, won't they warn u that there may be layer and divert?

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Click to expand...
Not in the least. Controllers aren't there to police or try to guess what area's are or are not VFR. If your destination is in their area of jurisdiction they will tell you if the airport goes IFR. They will tell you where the ice reports or turbulence/wind shear is. If you confess to being VFR and trapped with IMC below/around you they will do what they can to help you. Contrary to popular belief, ATC isn't in the business of policing FAR's.
 
WannFly said:
Good to know, I always thought flight following is an additional safety net... guess not when it comes to weather

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Click to expand...
ATC knows where significant precipitation is, but generally not clouds. That is, unless other pilots tell them. METARs are not nearly enough. I did an IFR ELT search recently, and watched a BIG hole in the undercast open up, and then close, with all the nearby METARs saying OVC024 the whole time.
 
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