Electronic ignition possibly certified soon

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Dave Taylor
I think there are two companies close to certification.
http://www.surefly.net/
(did not find, on a POA search)

-$1550@

-so what happens to the other, legacy mag? (which must remain installed)
Does it always fire later? (otherwise, how could the electronic mag have the promised control?)
If it fires later, is it so much later that it is really only a backup - ie it is not contributing to combustion events?

-any reports from the exp guys (apparently they are using now)

-will the electronic tach still work with it?
 
Not a bad comparative price point. I just paid almost that much for a new Slick mag when one of mine failed internally. I believe the other company is Electroair, but possible they only have STCs for certain Continental engines for certified aircraft.

The legacy mag continues to fire half the plugs with a static advance. The electronic ignition only varies the advance at higher RPM and altitude. I expect given the way the combustion chambers/heads are designed on these somewhat crude engines even with an electronic ignition it will still take both plugs firing to get complete combustion. I suppose one will be able to verify whether that is the case by shutting off the legacy mag in flight and see what happens to the RPM running just on the emag.

Years ago I put an aftermarket electronic ignition on a competition track car I built up. The underhood heat cooked it and it failed. The heat inside the cowl of an airplane is not trifling. I'm sure the manufacturer has done lots of testing, but 2000 hours (over who knows how many years) of heat soaked electronics without failure will be impressive if they can pull it off.
 
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With ye olde style magnetoe firing at a fixed timing, there will be limits on how far you can "retard" spark timing relative to the mag timing. But, in general, any improvements in efficiency will come from advancing the spark at operating points where the fixed timing is already retarded from optimal. You could end up with a timing that is effectively more "retarded" from the fixed mag if desired - fuel takes time to really get going and burn - retard one of the two ignition points and you retard the net effective burn time by retarding one of the two flame fronts so it takes longer to get to 50% or 90% of the fuel burned.

In general, "optimal" (MBT) is when the peak pressure happens somewheres around 15ish crank degrees after top dead center. Even with one plug firing at a fixed timing, you should still have quite a bit of wiggle room to make it happen.
 
Has anyone heard an opinion from the engine gurus in Ok on this? Braly, Deakins are who I think of.
 
Has anyone heard an opinion from the engine gurus in Ok on this? Braly, Deakins are who I think of.


You may recall that GAMI was working on an electronically-controlled ignition system for aircraft which they intended to sell; the project was jokingly named, "World Peace," and the name stuck. Apparently, they thought it was a pretty valuable initiative!

Unfortunately, while my understanding is that it has been demonstrated as being very effective, they have never to my knowledge secured certification for it to be sold.

Based upon that, unless they are giving up on World Peace (and who wants to admit to doing that?), I would not expect them to openly endorse any other electronic ignition product.
 
In general, "optimal" (MBT) is when the peak pressure happens somewheres around 15ish crank degrees after top dead center. Even with one plug firing at a fixed timing, you should still have quite a bit of wiggle room to make it happen.

Any thoughts on how far off of optimal timing the typical naturally aspirated aircraft engines are at the typical cruising altitudes and power settings we use? I've always suspected the timing was likely close and questioned how much improvement adjustable spark timing would make.

My suspicion is that the improvements seen would likely be more from the hotter spark that the electronic ignition could potentially deliver and less from the variable timing, but I don't have the test equipment nor the time to actually look at it.
 
Any thoughts on how far off of optimal timing the typical naturally aspirated aircraft engines are at the typical cruising altitudes and power settings we use? I've always suspected the timing was likely close and questioned how much improvement adjustable spark timing would make.

My suspicion is that the improvements seen would likely be more from the hotter spark that the electronic ignition could potentially deliver and less from the variable timing, but I don't have the test equipment nor the time to actually look at it.
Probably not off by huge amounts, but I've never run an aircraft engine on a dyno.
 
Any thoughts on how far off of optimal timing the typical naturally aspirated aircraft engines are at the typical cruising altitudes and power settings we use? I've always suspected the timing was likely close and questioned how much improvement adjustable spark timing would make.

My suspicion is that the improvements seen would likely be more from the hotter spark that the electronic ignition could potentially deliver and less from the variable timing, but I don't have the test equipment nor the time to actually look at it.
Improvements in efficiency are gained with spark advance during cruise. I'm thinking its a few degrees in the 4-7 degree range. Like everything, the timing we use is a compromise that allows full power operation with no detonation. If we were to operate under the spark advance with full power we'd have unfavorable results.
 
Improvements in efficiency are gained with spark advance during cruise. I'm thinking its a few degrees in the 4-7 degree range. Like everything, the timing we use is a compromise that allows full power operation with no detonation. If we were to operate under the spark advance with full power we'd have unfavorable results.

At higher altitudes or reduced MAP, maybe. But if you've ever looked at a spark table for a car, and think about how and where an aircraft engine is run, I suspect the fixed timing the factory sets is adequate.

The question in my mind is, how many people desire to sit in a non-turboed, unpressurized airplane at altitudes where they may benefit from spark advance?
 
At higher altitudes or reduced MAP, maybe. But if you've ever looked at a spark table for a car, and think about how and where an aircraft engine is run, I suspect the fixed timing the factory sets is adequate.

The question in my mind is, how many people desire to sit in a non-turboed, unpressurized airplane at altitudes where they may benefit from spark advance?
It's not the altitude as much as the power setting for max fuel efficiency. If one wanted an extra gallon or possibly two per hour at the same 65-70% HP.....spark advance could do that.

I bet Ted remembers these numbers?....:D
 
What's the big deal? Unison's Laser electronic ignition has been certified for years.
 
I suppose I might know a thing or two about electronic ignition in aircraft.

The concept is a great one. As with anything, the question is what will the execution be like. I've been a proponent of it for more than 10 years. If you think about how often you change ignition components on a modern car with distributorless ignition (never) compared to magnetos (~500 hours typically) plus the efficiency improvements, better starting, it's a no brainer. However, the issues have typically been certification, price, etc. There are different ways to go about it. Last I recall, the guys in Ada were trying to base their system off of actually measuring the cylinder pressure in real time and adjusting the spark to get peak pressure at the optimal point. This is a novel concept (and I believe is also what is used in some modern high-end cars), but it also strikes me as a lot of extra work with potential failure modes vs. just having a spark advance map like almost every other engine with electronic ignition out there has. Benefits will primarily be on naturally aspirated aircraft which spend a large percentage at their time in the manifold pressure range where you'll see the advance. However, there can be benefits for turbo applications as well.
 
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What's the big deal? Unison's Laser electronic ignition has been certified for years.

That system was never a particularly great version.
 
How about Electroair? They have a pretty good AML.

My new plane has dual Pmags. Experimental makes more sense for me.
 
well....those are the experts?....right? :D

They've certainly produced some products down in Ada that have been very good for GA. I had GAMIs in the 310 and plan to put them in the 414.

They have different experiences from me on similar subject matters. We also have different backgrounds, having come into aviation from different directions and paths. Sometime over a beer we can have a chat about some of my experiences with George. I like him fine, but we don't see eye to eye on everything.
 
They've certainly produced some products down in Ada that have been very good for GA. I had GAMIs in the 310 and plan to put them in the 414.

They have different experiences from me on similar subject matters. We also have different backgrounds, having come into aviation from different directions and paths. Sometime over a beer we can have a chat about some of my experiences with George. I like him fine, but we don't see eye to eye on everything.
I guess lacking skills in dentistry didn't help you....:lol:

from what other's have said....George is a rather peculiar fella. :D

btw...I'm having lunch with Tim this weekend. ;)
 
I guess lacking skills in dentistry didn't help you....:lol:

True. I'm not a dentist, and I'm not a lawyer. So I suppose those two things hurt my knowledge of engines significantly.

from what other's have said....George is a rather peculiar fella. :D

btw...I'm having lunch with Tim this weekend. ;)

Say hi for me!
 
How about Electroair? They have a pretty good AML.

I looked at their system and like it. But it is significantly more expensive.
 
It's not the altitude as much as the power setting for max fuel efficiency. If one wanted an extra gallon or possibly two per hour at the same 65-70% HP.....spark advance could do that.

I bet Ted remembers these numbers?....:D

That is a very general statement at best, not always applicable, and I think you know that.

Without proper testing we have no idea what the appropriate amount of ignition lead is for a specific engine under specific conditions. GAMI's idea of actually measuring firing pressure and controlling spark based off that is the only way to know for sure, and even then that system only had one firing pressure transducer. Guesses can be made, but I'll stick to guessing on cheap engines in ground based vehicles.
 
It's not the altitude as much as the power setting for max fuel efficiency. If one wanted an extra gallon or possibly two per hour at the same 65-70% HP.....spark advance could do that.

I bet Ted remembers these numbers?....:D

Yeah, I remember it pretty well. Just give me a laptop to fiddle around and I'll fix you up. ;)

Actually most of what I was working on was turbo'd, so there wasn't as much benefit from an efficiency standpoint. "MORE BOOST!" was the motto the customer used.

Without proper testing we have no idea what the appropriate amount of ignition lead is for a specific engine under specific conditions. GAMI's idea of actually measuring firing pressure and controlling spark based off that is the only way to know for sure, and even then that system only had one firing pressure transducer. Guesses can be made, but I'll stick to guessing on cheap engines in ground based vehicles.

I understand your point, but you also have to look at the total system design complexity. There's actually a lot you can figure out with some basic in-flight adjustments from efficiency and then monitoring CHTs and EGTs. No, it's not the same as having a direct in-cylinder pressure probe (I've got plenty of time running those), but remember that when these engines were designed, they didn't have in-cylinder pressure probes. They did detonation testing with accelerometers and used units of "flashes per minute", then did a 150-hour endurance test for durability, and some work on the dyno and flight testing somewhere along the way.

My personal experience with in-cylinder pressure probes is that they're unreliable and finicky. We spent more time trying to make the system work and cleaning the probes than actually using it. There are certainly more reliable ways to do it (I think BMW uses a system that has a crush washer under the spark plug), but I also think that adds unnecessary complexity in an aircraft. Once you get the manifold pressure down into the 24" and under range (which is where these systems start advancing the timing), it's generally fairly hard to hurt the engine.

That's not to say that GAMI's idea isn't a good one, but I personally doubt it offers any significant benefit in terms of efficiency, etc. vs. any of the other systems, but it does add complexity.
 
I suppose I might know a thing or two about electronic ignition in aircraft.

The concept is a great one. As with anything, the question is what will the execution be like. I've been a proponent of it for more than 10 years. If you think about how often you change ignition components on a modern car with distributorless ignition (never) compared to magnetos (~500 hours typically) plus the efficiency improvements, better starting, it's a no brainer. However, the issues have typically been certification, price, etc. There are different ways to go about it. Last I recall, the guys in Ada were trying to base their system off of actually measuring the cylinder pressure in real time and adjusting the spark to get peak pressure at the optimal point. This is a novel concept (and I believe is also what is used in some modern high-end cars), but it also strikes me as a lot of extra work with potential failure modes vs. just having a spark advance map like almost every other engine with electronic ignition out there has. Benefits will primarily be on naturally aspirated aircraft which spend a large percentage at their time in the manifold pressure range where you'll see the advance. However, there can be benefits for turbo applications as well.

Coilpacks are actually a very common failure point in modern direct ignition/COP systems. They have a nasty failure mode, where they fire fine under light loads, but under full load they short internally and the cylinder misfires.

Also, mapping the ignition is a very complex project. On the earliest Bosch Motronics with DI, the ignition angle calculation has around 1500 parameters/maps that it uses. You can't just decide where the optimal point would be. Optimal CA50 angle has too many variables and they are very difficult to model especially on engines from the 1930's (GT-Power doesn't model large bore low flow engines very well).
For example, Bosch defines the optimal ignition angle as the angle where CA50 is 15deg. The actual ignition angle is often 10-15 degrees off from that (actually, the car never runs optimal ignition). It's the corrections and allowed deviations from the optimal angles that take a lot of work, simulations and testing - I do not see that being a feasible approach (unless they have a team of a 100 engineers working on it).

Cylinder pressure transducers would be great, but so far these have not found their way into production engines. They are used to confirm simulations and the internal physics models in the ECUs, but production code runs based on models. They are way too unreliable to be used in production.
 
EFII systems are very popular with the EX crowd. They can adjust the programming from the panel. Too much effort for my taste. Pmags provide better power, better engine temps, and better fuel economy compared to standard mags. I'm looking forward to using them.
 
Coilpacks are actually a very common failure point in modern direct ignition/COP systems. They have a nasty failure mode, where they fire fine under light loads, but under full load they short internally and the cylinder misfires.

I'm aware of those failure modes and have had that particular failure mode myself. Of course, mags also have nasty failure modes such as structurally failing. My statement of "never" was an exaggeration, but you are correct that they (like anything else) can and do fail.

You refer to coilpacks as a "very common failure point," but my experience would indicate they are orders of magnitude more reliable than magnetos. Take for example the period when Slicks weren't lasting 50 hours for brand new units. As I stated, I've had around half a dozen in-flight mag failures. I have had two coilpack/COP failure in a couple hundred thousand miles of driving with them. One was when I bought aftermarket coil packs (Accel brand) on a Ford 4.6L V8. Once I diagnosed the problem, I put on a set of coil packs from a spare engine I had with over 100k on it that had been through a fire. Those coil packs lasted the duration of the time I had the car perfectly. The other was when I bought my Ford Excursion, and it had a couple of bad COPs. I replaced all 10 and had no issues for 80k miles (or probably on the order of 3,000 hours).

Also, mapping the ignition is a very complex project. On the earliest Bosch Motronics with DI, the ignition angle calculation has around 1500 parameters/maps that it uses. You can't just decide where the optimal point would be. Optimal CA50 angle has too many variables and they are very difficult to model especially on engines from the 1930's (GT-Power doesn't model large bore low flow engines very well).
For example, Bosch defines the optimal ignition angle as the angle where CA50 is 15deg. The actual ignition angle is often 10-15 degrees off from that (actually, the car never runs optimal ignition). It's the corrections and allowed deviations from the optimal angles that take a lot of work, simulations and testing - I do not see that being a feasible approach (unless they have a team of a 100 engineers working on it).

Cylinder pressure transducers would be great, but so far these have not found their way into production engines. They are used to confirm simulations and the internal physics models in the ECUs, but production code runs based on models.

I do agree that ignition mapping can be very complex, but you can get ~90% of the benefits with a significantly abbreviated test plan, especially on our engines where emissions aren't a concern. It's easy to make a huge science experiment out of it, but you also have to look at what your goals are. On our aircraft engines, I would set the goals as:

1) Improved reliability
2) Improved efficiency

Note that in both cases I said "improved." With the current bar that we have, that's very doable without much effort. If you want to replace "improved" with "optimal", then yes, you'll significantly increase the effort and complexity, and I'd argue that from what you said regarding Bosch, you'll never truly get there.
 
On the earliest Bosch Motronics with DI, the ignition angle calculation has around 1500 parameters/maps that it uses. You can't just decide where the optimal point would be.
Dealing with emission constraints is much much much more complex than just mapping MBT and borderline knock tables on an engine with no gimmicks like variable cam timing, EGR, variable injection timing, etc. etc. etc.
 
That is a very general statement at best, not always applicable, and I think you know that.

Without proper testing we have no idea what the appropriate amount of ignition lead is for a specific engine under specific conditions. GAMI's idea of actually measuring firing pressure and controlling spark based off that is the only way to know for sure, and even then that system only had one firing pressure transducer. Guesses can be made, but I'll stick to guessing on cheap engines in ground based vehicles.
Yes....engine testing is the key to develop all the needed mapping to determine the settings required for optimal performance for an EFI system. The fancy piezoelectric are not really needed. What that doesn't provide is a direct feed back/measurement of a key performance parameter. But there are other ways of monitoring that.

IMHO....the added complexity ain't worth it. Been there done it on NA rotary drone engines....:D
 
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Dealing with emission constraints is much much much more complex than just mapping MBT and borderline knock tables on an engine with no gimmicks like variable cam timing, EGR, variable injection timing, etc. etc. etc.

Knock tables aren't easy, far from it. With ion current sensing, maybe. With piezo sensors, lot of testing, work and spare engines/cylinders (= money). Filtering the signal to detect a knock event (after deciding what amplitude in cylinder pressure we consider knock) is the problem. Different airframes have different vibrations, changing a cylinder to other brand might make it completely different, and so on. You'll also very likely need one sensor per cylinder.
Mapping for MBT is not too difficult as long as you have enough input variables to know what is happening in the combustion chamber. This requires sensors and controlled fault paths and diagnostics for them.
I don't see _modern_ electronic ignition systems available for airplane engines in a while. Systems that are better than magnetos? Yes, definitely. But modern, not in a while.
 
Knock tables aren't easy, far from it. With ion current sensing, maybe. With piezo sensors, lot of testing, work and spare engines/cylinders (= money). Filtering the signal to detect a knock event (after deciding what amplitude in cylinder pressure we consider knock) is the problem. Different airframes have different vibrations, changing a cylinder to other brand might make it completely different, and so on. You'll also very likely need one sensor per cylinder.
Mapping for MBT is not too difficult as long as you have enough input variables to know what is happening in the combustion chamber. This requires sensors and controlled fault paths and diagnostics for them.
I don't see _modern_ electronic ignition systems available for airplane engines in a while. Systems that are better than magnetos? Yes, definitely. But modern, not in a while.
Back in the olden days, knock limits were determined by running the engine on the dyno and having someone listen for knock (Yes, the threshold varies with humidity / ambient temp - you just applied a fudge factor to make it safe.) MBT is easy. Watch fuel flow at constant torque. The behavior is reasonably smooth and you don't need that many speed load points once you shed things like EGR. We used to just collect data across a range of speed / load / spark advance (and EGR) and sort out MBT by post processing the data (which included fuel flow). And, in the olden olden days you would find MBT by running constant speed / throttle and see what spark advance gave the best torque. But that was before my time since that didn't help you optimize for emission constrained fuel economy.
 
I understand your point, but you also have to look at the total system design complexity. There's actually a lot you can figure out with some basic in-flight adjustments from efficiency and then monitoring CHTs and EGTs. No, it's not the same as having a direct in-cylinder pressure probe (I've got plenty of time running those), but remember that when these engines were designed, they didn't have in-cylinder pressure probes. They did detonation testing with accelerometers and used units of "flashes per minute", then did a 150-hour endurance test for durability, and some work on the dyno and flight testing somewhere along the way.

My personal experience with in-cylinder pressure probes is that they're unreliable and finicky. We spent more time trying to make the system work and cleaning the probes than actually using it. There are certainly more reliable ways to do it (I think BMW uses a system that has a crush washer under the spark plug), but I also think that adds unnecessary complexity in an aircraft. Once you get the manifold pressure down into the 24" and under range (which is where these systems start advancing the timing), it's generally fairly hard to hurt the engine.

The firing pressure transducers I deal with at work are supposed to only be reliable for around 100 hours, so I have my doubts that a production type transducer that is expected to last thousands of hours is realistic, and a problem waiting to happen. Like you, it seems like every time we set up firing pressure it is finicky. I've spent far too much time swapping transducers and troubleshooting.

I haven't kept up with what BMW is doing, but I thought they were gleaning some information from feedback in the ignition system rather than directly measuring firing pressure?

I've done valvetrain testing using accelerometers, I hadn't considered using it to try and measure detonation. I have wondered if strain gages and high speed acquisition couldn't be used to get an estimate on when you reach peak firing pressure relative to crank position, in lieu of having a dyno/test cell to run in. It might be interesting to try.

I have another question for you Ted, since you're probably the only one here who has actually run an instrumented aircraft engine in a test cell. Can you actually reach MBT on a typical non-turbo aircraft engine or will it start knocking before you get there?

Yes....engine testing is the key to develop all the needed mapping to determine the settings required for optimal performance for an EFI system. The fancy piezoelectric are not really needed. What that doesn't provide is a direct feed back/measurement of a key performance parameter. But there are other ways of monitoring that.

IMHO....the added complexity ain't worth it. Been there done it on NA rotary drone engines....:D

What you need is an engine in a test cell to figure out some conservative timing settings, then you forgo the extra instrumentation in the production environment. How many of these companies hawking the $1500 magneto replacements are going to put that kind of research into figuring things out, for each engine (and potentially airframe) on their approved model list? I'd bet not too many, if any.
 
The firing pressure transducers I deal with at work are supposed to only be reliable for around 100 hours, so I have my doubts that a production type transducer that is expected to last thousands of hours is realistic, and a problem waiting to happen. Like you, it seems like every time we set up firing pressure it is finicky. I've spent far too much time swapping transducers and troubleshooting.

They were a real pain to work with. I learned quite a bit and there was some great information in there, but yeah, difficult.

I haven't kept up with what BMW is doing, but I thought they were gleaning some information from feedback in the ignition system rather than directly measuring firing pressure?

I don't recall any details, I just recall that they were using something to dynamically change spark advance based on real-time conditions, rather than lookup maps. I had thought they had some sort of sensor that fit between the spark plug and the cylinder head to determine that, but this is a very vague memory that I read somewhere some years back, so don't quote me on it.

I've done valvetrain testing using accelerometers, I hadn't considered using it to try and measure detonation. I have wondered if strain gages and high speed acquisition couldn't be used to get an estimate on when you reach peak firing pressure relative to crank position, in lieu of having a dyno/test cell to run in. It might be interesting to try.

Like I said, in the old days (when all of our aircraft engines were certified) that's how it was done. The same concept is used in most "modern" (1990s onwards) cars that have knock sensors, but I suspect those were instrumented better. The accelerometers did the job, although the setup did have a lot of human intervention and thus room for error. When I was using probes we were able to set the computer to record detonation events and get much more repeatable results.

I have another question for you Ted, since you're probably the only one here who has actually run an instrumented aircraft engine in a test cell. Can you actually reach MBT on a typical non-turbo aircraft engine or will it start knocking before you get there?

The simple answer is that the factory ignition settings were actually not too far off from MBT at rated power (full throttle, max RPM, and the best power mixture setting). I tended to find on the higher power engines (which was most of what I ran) that advancing the timing further had no difference on torque (at least, a difference that was within the margin of error of the dyno). On the low power engines you couldn't make the things detonate on 100LL.

Now for the more complex answer. One thing to note with aircraft engines is that we have a wide range of CHTs to deal with, and detonation is heavily influenced by CHTs. So is power output. At high CHTs, your power output goes down (one of the man reasons why good baffling on aircraft engines is so important). Plus we have a wide range of mixture settings to deal with.

So, the answer to your question is more complex since it depends on those factors. When doing typical power tests, the cooling air was typically more at a typical cruise power type setting, which kept CHTs in the mid 300s (fairly typical for the aircraft that the engines were put in). This is different front detonation testing, where CHTs had to be close to redline (I forget the exact number, I think the hottest head was required to be within 10F of redline), oil temp within some temperature of redline, induction air 100F, etc. For detonation tests on the higher power engines, you typically were limited by detonation before you got to the best power setting. But at max power you're typically running at full rich mixture, not at best power mixture.

I think you're probably asking about when doing detonation tests rather than the standard power tests with more cooling air, in which case the answer is that you can't run a best power mixture and MBT, you'll get into detonation for higher power naturally aspirated engines, but you can for lower powered engines.

The air cooled aspect really does make things interesting from an aircraft side. With a water-cooled engine, you more or less have a constant engine temperature, or at least constant for a set of conditions. With air-cooled, you can have huge swings.
 
I don't recall any details, I just recall that they were using something to dynamically change spark advance based on real-time conditions, rather than lookup maps. I had thought they had some sort of sensor that fit between the spark plug and the cylinder head to determine that, but this is a very vague memory that I read somewhere some years back, so don't quote me on it.

Latest gen of BMW petrol engines use Bosch MEVD17.2.9 ECUs, they still have lookup tables (8 of them), the actual map used is decided on the camshaft control phases, and then corrected through a billion factors to give the actual output angle.
 
The simple answer is that the factory ignition settings were actually not too far off from MBT at rated power (full throttle, max RPM, and the best power mixture setting). I tended to find on the higher power engines (which was most of what I ran) that advancing the timing further had no difference on torque (at least, a difference that was within the margin of error of the dyno). On the low power engines you couldn't make the things detonate on 100LL.

Now for the more complex answer. One thing to note with aircraft engines is that we have a wide range of CHTs to deal with, and detonation is heavily influenced by CHTs. So is power output. At high CHTs, your power output goes down (one of the man reasons why good baffling on aircraft engines is so important). Plus we have a wide range of mixture settings to deal with.

So, the answer to your question is more complex since it depends on those factors. When doing typical power tests, the cooling air was typically more at a typical cruise power type setting, which kept CHTs in the mid 300s (fairly typical for the aircraft that the engines were put in). This is different front detonation testing, where CHTs had to be close to redline (I forget the exact number, I think the hottest head was required to be within 10F of redline), oil temp within some temperature of redline, induction air 100F, etc. For detonation tests on the higher power engines, you typically were limited by detonation before you got to the best power setting. But at max power you're typically running at full rich mixture, not at best power mixture.

I think you're probably asking about when doing detonation tests rather than the standard power tests with more cooling air, in which case the answer is that you can't run a best power mixture and MBT, you'll get into detonation for higher power naturally aspirated engines, but you can for lower powered engines.

The air cooled aspect really does make things interesting from an aircraft side. With a water-cooled engine, you more or less have a constant engine temperature, or at least constant for a set of conditions. With air-cooled, you can have huge swings.

Ted, thanks for taking the time to reply. Your answer is what I expected, I just have nothing but theories and suspicions when it comes to aircraft engines. To date, all my test cell time is with diesels.
 
Latest gen of BMW petrol engines use Bosch MEVD17.2.9 ECUs, they still have lookup tables (8 of them), the actual map used is decided on the camshaft control phases, and then corrected through a billion factors to give the actual output angle.

Interesting and makes sense. Thanks for the info.

Ted, thanks for taking the time to reply. Your answer is what I expected, I just have nothing but theories and suspicions when it comes to aircraft engines. To date, all my test cell time is with diesels.

Glad you found the info useful. :)

Yeah, diesels are different animals. The pressure readings you see are different for sure.
 
Still figuring this ECU type out myself. The function description documentation is 38000 pages of flowcharts though so it will be a while :D

I feel your pain...

There are only a handful of guys I work with who are truly masters of our ECUs and know exactly which table or field to modify to get the desired test conditions. When all else fails they're the ones getting a call.
 
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