eAPIS - CBP $5k Fine - Advice?

[astanley]

Michigan is better than Ohio regardless of this particular issue.

These types of ID's only work at land/sea crossings. Air requires a passport, NEXUS card, or US military ID.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Unregistered]

I fly back and forth frequently across the US/Canada border and while I have not run into this sort of issue, the implementation of eAPIS is horrendous. The website is a textbook case study how NOT to build a user experience. Furthermore, try finding a phone number ANYWHERE on the eAPIS site for help! It simply does not exist.

I filed a cross border plan yesterday along with my eAPIS Notice of Departure. Failure to file the notice of departure can lead to a $5000 fine as well! So now I have to call them and cancel due to weather and there is not a SINGLE phone number listed ANYWHERE to call CBP and cancel the eAPIS filing. I called several numbers last night that I found on the CBP contacts page and one went to an anonymous voice mail, and the other had a recording to call back during normal business hours. I fly when weather permits me to NOT DURING NORMAL BUSINESS HOURS!!! It is a horrible implementation. CBP can assess fines up to $5000 and yet there's no support for eAPIS and one available 7/24 to support the people that are MANDATED to use this flipping system! This was the case when they first introduced it and here we are 4 years on and its the same situation.

 

[hindsight2020]

Your post is a little hard to follow, but for a VFR flight you should have obtained the $25 customs sticker prior to your trip, completed the eAPIS as you stated, called the customs office at the airport where landing with your ETA at least 1 hour before departure, filed a flight plan, opened the flight plan and obtained a transponder code from ATC for border crossing after take off, then taxied directly to customs upon arrival not forgetting to close your VFR flight plan. If weather was delaying your flight, you should have called and advised customs.

If you are flying into an airport where customs is not staffed 24/7, you are going to get a whole lot happier agent if you give them 24 hours notice.

Eff it, that sounds like a lot of hassle for the risk of being dinged $5K, particularly given the crappy dispatch rate, due to wx deviations, of GA aircraft. I'm not gonna take a beating to the back of my head because I'm worrying more about appeasing some college dropout GS-9 than making safe and independent decision making in order to safely and enjoyably conduct my recreational flight across borders. Considering what I know about CBP and their demographic, I'll just take my car over the border. It is positively easier and more common.

As to CBP..I guess a college dropout GS-9 is slightly better than a TSA high school dropout GS-7. I've had enough dealings with them here to know they're not my friends. The whole 'I gotta feed my family' is not good enough reason for me to trample on the innocent and those who are part of the team (thus accessible to being harrassed and criminalized) only because you're completely ineffective in tackling the "bad guys".

 

[Ted]

Aside from Lance and some of the other jet pilots on here, I'm probably the ranking eAPIS user on this board with half a dozen or so border crossings per year. So here's how it actually works.

You get your sticker ahead of time. If you forget about it, they probably won't even notice. I've had two times I crossed without a sticker. Once was accidental (I forgot) and the other was semi-intentional. I needed to borrow the Cheyenne and it didn't have a sticker. The first time the agent just told me to buy one as soon as I got home. The second time the guy didn't even ask. Usually they don't care.

You file your eAPIS. Give it your best guess. You need to talk to the guys anyone, and they never care. The hardest part here is that the website is poorly designed. I've had my wife file for me in the US because I've been in a country where I can't get it to work.

You call the customs station a few hours ahead. The phone number can be found with a quick Google, and AirNav has most of them. Tell them when you're going to land. If it changes, call them back and tell them. They've always been nice about it to me.

Land, say hi. The folks are sometimes nice, sometimes less nice. No different than driving across the border in this regard. Honestly, I've found most of them to be very friendly and helpful. Then you're on your way again.

Yes, the burden to the user is excessive vs what is really required. Canada's system is far better. That said, it's no big deal. Seriously.

 

[comanchepilot]

The fine is generally enforced for intentional subsequent violations . . . appeal it.

It'll be reduced.

Now, next time, RTFM. It's all in there. There is ZERO excuse for this violation.

 

[colojo]

Aside from Lance and some of the other jet pilots on here, I'm probably the ranking eAPIS user on this board with half a dozen or so border crossings per year. So here's how it actually works.

You get your sticker ahead of time. If you forget about it, they probably won't even notice. I've had two times I crossed without a sticker. Once was accidental (I forgot) and the other was semi-intentional. I needed to borrow the Cheyenne and it didn't have a sticker. The first time the agent just told me to buy one as soon as I got home. The second time the guy didn't even ask. Usually they don't care.

You file your eAPIS. Give it your best guess. You need to talk to the guys anyone, and they never care. The hardest part here is that the website is poorly designed. I've had my wife file for me in the US because I've been in a country where I can't get it to work.

You call the customs station a few hours ahead. The phone number can be found with a quick Google, and AirNav has most of them. Tell them when you're going to land. If it changes, call them back and tell them. They've always been nice about it to me.

Land, say hi. The folks are sometimes nice, sometimes less nice. No different than driving across the border in this regard. Honestly, I've found most of them to be very friendly and helpful. Then you're on your way again.

Yes, the burden to the user is excessive vs what is really required. Canada's system is far better. That said, it's no big deal. Seriously.

+1. Crossed the border coming back from Mexico in El Paso last year, San Diego this year. Followed the above procedures and had no problems.

 

[comanchepilot]

So the border states have an enhanced driver license that can be used to enter the country . . . how is that going to work when they give non-citizen illegal aliens driver licenses because its 'fair?' You will end up giving non-citizens a quasi-citizenship document who are admittedly not citizens . . . .

What a country.

 

[koehn]

I'd be curious to find how how the OP's case (2.5 years ago) actually turned out. I know factual outcomes are generally not supported here, but still. I'm glad I read (some of) this exchange; I learned a lot.

 

[EdFred]

So the border states have an enhanced driver license that can be used to enter the country . . . how is that going to work when they give non-citizen illegal aliens driver licenses because its 'fair?' You will end up giving non-citizens a quasi-citizenship document who are admittedly not citizens . . . .

What a country.

Additional requirements to get the eDL in Michigan.

 

[JoeSelch]

So the border states have an enhanced driver license that can be used to enter the country . . . how is that going to work when they give non-citizen illegal aliens driver licenses because its 'fair?' You will end up giving non-citizens a quasi-citizenship document who are admittedly not citizens . . . .

What a country.

In Michigan, proof of citizenship is required in order to get an enhanced driver's license. They aren't just handing these things out - one needs to apply and pay an additional fee for it.

 

[comanchepilot]

In Michigan, proof of citizenship is required in order to get an enhanced driver's license. They aren't just handing these things out - one needs to apply and pay an additional fee for it.

isn't that racist and unfair to the illegal aliens who can't get these documents? it might sound crazy now, but what we are hearing today, with states giving welfare and health care and driver licenses to illegals sounded absolutely insane ten years ago.

Proof of citizenship - how discriminatory.

 

[comanchepilot]

Ok folks - just pointing out - as an example - the heavily used Brown Field outside San Diego - KSDM -

Airnav does not list the customs number

And it is not located on the CBP webpage show earlier -

Now, you certainly can call the FBO and get the number . . . you can call the San Diego office or simply google search it -

But - the less heavily used Calexico airport office is listed under the Ports of Entry listing.

The obvious reason is that SDM is not an 'International' Airport - but the confusion and lack of easily obtainable information is one of those things that does make you scratch your head.

CBP rules are designed to trip people up so they can enforce them - since they make very little sense except to not waste the time of the government employee who has better things to do like stand around, drink coffee and shoot the breeze with their fellow employees- work? Drive somewhere in a government car to actually do their job. Right . . . .

 

[Everskyward]

So the border states have an enhanced driver license that can be used to enter the country . . . how is that going to work when they give non-citizen illegal aliens driver licenses because its 'fair?' You will end up giving non-citizens a quasi-citizenship document who are admittedly not citizens . . . .

What a country.

At least in Utah, where it is already implemented, it is clearly noted on the license.

 

[Warrior]

I enjoyed some flights to the Bahamas in the 1970s. Now I have Eapis phobia but most folks who have done the EAPIS say that I should go ahead and enjoy a Bahamas flight in 2013. I have been thinking about doing the Bahamas flight for several years but haven't done one since about 1976.

 

[Everskyward]

I don't think worries about eAPIS should be enough to prevent people from making a cross-border trip. You just need to follow the instructions. One warning, though, is that you want to enter the passengers' names exactly as it is on their passport, to include their middle name.

 

[schmookeeg]

I don't think worries about eAPIS should be enough to prevent people from making a cross-border trip. You just need to follow the instructions. One warning, though, is that you want to enter the passengers' names exactly as it is on their passport, to include their middle name.

I have eapis phobia. The kings should do a video or something so I can armchair fly it, rather than learn the first time whether i read and understood the procedures properly. (on pain of fines)

 

[koehn]

Ok folks - just pointing out - as an example - the heavily used Brown Field outside San Diego - KSDM -

Airnav does not list the customs number

And it is not located on the CBP webpage show earlier -

Try this (found on AOPA website):
http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov...airport_inspection.ctt/airport_inspection.pdf

 

[comanchepilot]

I don't think worries about eAPIS should be enough to prevent people from making a cross-border trip. You just need to follow the instructions. One warning, though, is that you want to enter the passengers' names exactly as it is on their passport, to include their middle name.

And hope that the CBP/ICE officer knows them as well . . . .

 

[poadeleted21]

I don't think worries about eAPIS should be enough to prevent people from making a cross-border trip. You just need to follow the instructions. One warning, though, is that you want to enter the passengers' names exactly as it is on their passport, to include their middle name.

The locals tell me with the eAPIS and the CBP BS that airplane traffic from NW WA to Canada and back has all but halted. I've done the dance to go over to Canada, and definitely gone elsewhere on more occasions than not. The eAPIS website SUCKS. And the idea of getting an exit visa to leave the country SUCKS MORE.

 

[EdFred]

So here's a question...

I overfly Canada. Whether it be from Bellingham to Ketchikan, or Grand Rapids to Albany. While over Canada I have to land for a valid reason. Passenger gets sick, I had the fish, oil pressure drops to 0, or it starts running a teensy bit rough. I've now left the country without getting permission, am I paying the $5,000 to get back in?

 

[poadeleted21]

So here's a question...

I overfly Canada. Whether it be from Bellingham to Ketchikan, or Grand Rapids to Albany. While over Canada I have to land for a valid reason. Passenger gets sick, I had the fish, oil pressure drops to 0, or it starts running a teensy bit rough. I've now left the country without getting permission, am I paying the $5,000 to get back in?

Nope, but you will go on some sort of permanent government watch list. The CBP officer that told me that, didn't care to elaborate.

 

[cirrusmx]

I file eapis every single week, both ways. I always file (takes me 3 minutes) and call before take off. Don't hop out of the plane until the CBP guards have you insight, if they dont come out after ten minutes of sitting in the ramp i usually phone them and let them know I have been there for a awhile. I only answer what I am asked and keep it simple, after all I don't expect them to have a phd IQ. No hassle for me or them. Those guys tend to get nervous with any type of misunderstanding. Courtesy goes a long way. LOL

 

[poadeleted21]

I file eapis every single week, both ways. I always file (takes me 3 minutes) and call before take off. Don't hop out of the plane until the CBP guards have you insight, if they dont come out after ten minutes of sitting in the ramp i usually phone them and let them know I have been there for a awhile. I only answer what I am asked and keep it simple, after all I don't expect them to have a phd IQ. No hassle for me or them. Those guys tend to get nervous with any type of misunderstanding. Courtesy goes a long way. LOL

It's good to see someone who's OK with our new reality of being the only so called "free" country that requires such nonsense.

When you go to Canada how nervous are the CBP folks there?
(for those who don't know, you'll most likely never even see a Canadian border agent, just a phone call and "have a nice visit")

What sort of exit/entry visa do they require a foreign national to have?
(none, no eAPIS there and they couldn't care less)

But come back home, you get "nervous" CBP guys and a 5 grand fine for writing "Bill" instead of "William". I got dressed down by one for arriving during my allotted time, but he didn't so obviously it was my fault and no, I didn't deplane, I waited he was just late. All I wanted to do was go home after visiting..... CANADA!!!

Where I used to cross, there's a couple of CBP guys "known" for being PITAs, most pilots just go cross elsewhere to avoid the extra BS. Or rather, most pilots just stay here to avoid it unless someone's paying them to go.

The problems are 100% on THIS side of the border.

 

[Everskyward]

Canadian customs is inquisitive in a different way. They sometimes ask multiple questions about what the passengers will be doing in Canada, especially if you cite "business" as the reason for the visit. "What kind of business? Who do they work for?" etc. They are also are inquisitive about how long Canadian citizens/residents have been out of Canada. If you have a DUI, especially a recent one, you might be sent back. I get the feeling that the Canadians are more sensitive about the economic angle while US customs is more sensitive about the security part.

 

[hindsight2020]

It's good to see someone who's OK with our new reality of being the only so called "free" country that requires such nonsense.

When you go to Canada how nervous are the CBP folks there?
(for those who don't know, you'll most likely never even see a Canadian border agent, just a phone call and "have a nice visit")

What sort of exit/entry visa do they require a foreign national to have?
(none, no eAPIS there and they couldn't care less)

But come back home, you get "nervous" CBP guys and a 5 grand fine for writing "Bill" instead of "William". I got dressed down by one for arriving during my allotted time, but he didn't so obviously it was my fault and no, I didn't deplane, I waited he was just late. All I wanted to do was go home after visiting..... CANADA!!!

Where I used to cross, there's a couple of CBP guys "known" for being PITAs, most pilots just go cross elsewhere to avoid the extra BS. Or rather, most pilots just stay here to avoid it unless someone's paying them to go.

The problems are 100% on THIS side of the border.

Bingo. This is why I'd never consider this gestapo self-registration entrapment scheme for a recreational crossing. It's a big entrapment scheme ($5K to crimininalize willing participants IS a revenue scheme, not a safety driven one). Furthermore I think the requirement to criminalize physical deplaning is obtuse beyond my personal taste for a recreational pursuit. They can have it. I'll drive over and if I cant drive over Ill take the commercial tube. $5K because I forgot my phone charger and the weather/ mx changed *gasp* my arrival time, or I gotta take a ---t real bad upon landing, or the internet died, or a college dropout feels ****y that morning? Eff that noise.

Meanwhile, while the CBP college dropouts are harassing me and asking me to "board my vessel" at the lake (and by vessel...they were referring to a two person jet ski...there's your sign...) in order to look for drugs or people I clearly must have been smuggling (as the only white complected skin individual for 50 miles, to include the agents mind you) the real drug runners, coyotes, illegal immigrants and other general degenerates go about their business in public recognition of the sheer ineffectiveness of this LE multi-million dollar jobs bank of an agency. But hey, we're infusing the border towns with critical federal subsidy monies in the form of salaries for these employees. As long as we can boost the housing market and Walmart stock in these no-name desert crapholes in the name of the safety of the well-to-do children of suburban america 200 miles north, it's all good.

 

[Everskyward]

FWIW, they are most likely not going to slap you with a fine for some little mistake. You'll just get a lecture. We've had a number of customs goofs without much consequence. That's why I know that the names need to match...

 

[poadeleted21]

FWIW, they are most likely not going to slap you with a fine for some little mistake. You'll just get a lecture. We've had a number of customs goofs without much consequence. That's why I know that the names need to match...

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69581


Or they'll make you throw yourself at their feet and beg for mercy.


We can't have people trying to go home who spell Thomas as Tommy.

It's insane.

 

[Everskyward]

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69581


Or they'll make you throw yourself at their feet and beg for mercy.


We can't have people trying to go home who spell Thomas as Tommy.

It's insane.

I don't belong to Beechtalk. All you need to do is be careful about the name that is on the passport. It should be easy if you only have a couple passengers. I don't worry about customs much at all. I was only giving some advice, not saying that you need to be paranoid.

 

[poadeleted21]

I don't belong to Beechtalk. All you need to do is be careful about the name that is on the passport. It should be easy if you only have a couple passengers. I don't worry about customs much at all I was only giving some advice.

The original post. He eventually got out of it after begging for mercy.

Just got an Email from CBP (customs and border protection) stating that my APIS manifest transmitted to CBP did not match exactly with the passports. So $5,000 first fine and $10,000 each additional fine times 4 equals $35,000. So I made 4 errors filling out both ways. Basically the names of my wife and son did not match. I can't find the manifests so I don't know at this time. I think I forgot to add my wife's middle name and called my son Tommy rather than Thomas. Ok, I'm a dumbass for not being able to fill out government forms, but REALLY !!! So, do I call up and plead ignorance and ask for mercy? Do I need an attorney? No, I don't have AOPA legal plan. What do you all think I should do?

 

[poadeleted21]

Canadian customs is inquisitive in a different way. They sometimes ask multiple questions about what the passengers will be doing in Canada, especially if you cite "business" as the reason for the visit. "What kind of business? Who do they work for?" etc. They are also are inquisitive about how long Canadian citizens/residents have been out of Canada. If you have a DUI, especially a recent one, you might be sent back. I get the feeling that the Canadians are more sensitive about the economic angle while US customs is more sensitive about the security part.

I have a friend who had a 9.5 year old DUI and got turned around. He got a little huffy about it. The Canadian border guy just laughed and said " Don't be mad at us, we're a sovereign country that you're not a resident of, if I were you I'd be ****ed at your country for sharing details of my life with a sovereign country" and that's what he did and they discussed it the guy gave him instructions on how to get a waiver to come though.

Canada can do what they want, ill respect it. But, IMHO they treat American citizens better than America.

 

[Everskyward]

The original post. He eventually got out of it after begging for mercy.

"Sorry, I won't do it again" or something like that is enough. I wouldn't exactly call that "begging for mercy", but some might.

 

[poadeleted21]

"Sorry, I won't do it again" or something like that is enough. I wouldn't exactly call that "begging for mercy", but some might.

FWIW

Thanks for everyone's input. I wanted everyone's ideas before I decided what to do. My initial response was to just call them up, act humbly and ask for mercy and understanding. That is what I did. The agent in charge of eAPIS filings was responsive, understanding and knowledgeable. He said I needed to respond by email that I understood my error, learned how not to make the same mistake again and would try not to do it again. I did, and they dismissed the case and fines and would consider the case closed. My response was courteous, polite and thankful. When I hung up the phone I expressed how I truly felt.

Thank goodness for rational minds, but G&D D#%M those who made this law how can we live in a country that by forgetting to put in middle names on a form could cost $35,000. I'm tempted to go to the media but it is unlikely that you could generate sympathy for athe " privileged elite" who has their own plane. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!

 

[weilke]

I've crossed both north and south, the only ahole was at GFK and I think he was POed he had to come out on a saturday.

There are three of them that cover the entire state. You probably caused him to miss his kids soccer game.

 

[Ted]

"Sorry, I won't do it again" or something like that is enough. I wouldn't exactly call that "begging for mercy", but some might.

You mean the folks who would rather complain than realize that none of this is really that bad?

It seems the complainers are the folks who've never done it themselves.

 

[Ted]

You must better calling CANPASS than I am, I usually end up on hold forever.

I have probably about 50/50 between holding for no time whatsoever or holding for 1-3 minutes. I'm sure they have peak times and not peak times.

I do wish that the USA would have a system like CanPass. That is much more logical and would be a better use of resources. But that said, eAPIS and CBP isn't nearly as bad as it could be. If you think that it is, try going to Mexico or Belize. Or try flying commercial and waiting in line for an hour with everyone else rather than having prompt service.

In Mexico, I have to get a special insurance policy before flying there or I'll get my plane impounded and be subject to criminal charges. Pay a yearly registration fee, pay other fees, have 4 different government offices stamp my forms, etc. Belize is much the same, but a handler makes it go faster. Meanwhile in the USA we're done in under 5 minutes, they're usually waiting for me, and I'm on my way.

But hey, what does experience have to do with anything?

 

[poadeleted21]

You mean the folks who would rather complain than realize that none of this is really that bad?

It seems the complainers are the folks who've never done it themselves.

I've done it, been terrified that I filled something out wrong (I didn't, I'm a good citizen and fill out all my government forms properly). Then gotten berated because a CBP officer can't read a clock.

A guy got fined $35,000 for spelling "Thomas" as "Tommy" on a government form. He got out of by begging and formally stating that the government was right and he was wrong.

At what point is it "really that bad"?

Would you say the same thing if you had to do it every flight and your financial well being could take a hit with typo? How bout to fly out of state?

How about to leave your house?

You want to go to the grocery store, fill out this form a day in advance, make sure to spell everything correctly, be there +- 10 minutes of your stated time and be back home +-10 minutes of your stated time. You also need to be on the phone with a government employee before you leave your property until you reach the grocery store property. Oh, we're also going to need to know what you're taking with you and what you're planning on bringing back. That whole 4th amendment thing won't be applying either.

The system is beyond idiotic. And truly oppressive to folks like me who just want to go visit a friend in Calgary for the day, or spend the weekend in the Bahamas.

I've done it so I have the right to whine, the entire process makes my blood boil. But it was refreshing to see that Canadians don't live in fear of 1200lb planes flown by pilots who make typos.

We all know that threats to country are made by people who fill out government forms incorrectly, so I guess it's a small price to pay.

 

[steingar]

Too much hassle and too great a risk for me.

 

[Ted]

International is much different than interstate. Is it too onerous to file an IFR flight plan? This isn't much different. Congress has mandated many times under different administrations that we keep track of who both enters and leaves the country. The problem is that it's only been applied in some areas, and not entirely consistently. We happen to be in one of the areas.

One person claims to have been threatened with a $35k fine because he made a simple mistake that was stupid. He got out of it by admitting his mistake. Sounds to me like ultimately they were reasonable about it, then. It's a report that you're getting from someone who's disgruntled.

Meanwhile, here you've got multiple people who deal with the system routinely and say it's no problems, and we've all made mistakes too. I guess our experience doesn't count.

If one wants to be afraid, go ahead and be afraid. I just haven't found that fear to be based in reality.

 

[poadeleted21]

International is much different than interstate. Is it too onerous to file an IFR flight plan? This isn't much different. Congress has mandated many times under different administrations that we keep track of who both enters and leaves the country. The problem is that it's only been applied in some areas, and not entirely consistently. We happen to be in one of the areas.

One person claims to have been threatened with a $35k fine because he made a simple mistake that was stupid. He got out of it by admitting his mistake. Sounds to me like ultimately they were reasonable about it, then. It's a report that you're getting from someone who's disgruntled.

Meanwhile, here you've got multiple people who deal with the system routinely and say it's no problems, and we've all made mistakes too. I guess our experience doesn't count.

If one wants to be afraid, go ahead and be afraid. I just haven't found that fear to be based in reality.

The entire process is unreasonable, not based on anything logical and just oppressive government nonsense.

I'm sure you get the hang of it when doing it everyday, for a guy like me who leaves the country once, maybe twice a year VFR it's damn near a ban, which is probably the intent.

I challenge you to find another "free" country that requires anything close to resembling eAPIS. There may be one, but I'm not aware of it. Places like Cuba require similar, Canada doesn't.

If you want to argue it's necessary. FINE. I've never heard one good reason why requiring permission from the government to LEAVE makes any sense. OR why requiring permission from the government for a citizen to ARRIVE does either. I can understand wanting to vet foreign nationals to some extent.

Just don't tell me how much I should like it.

 

[JHW]

It's good to see someone who's OK with our new reality of being the only so called "free" country that requires such nonsense.

you don't have to like it to understand that if you want to travel, you have to comply with it. I don't like it either but that is a topic to discuss with my congressman, not with the CBP officer. I own an airplane because we like to travel. What's the point in having a plane just to let it sit in the hangar while you complain about the problems with the country ?