Dumping fuel over Miami

Captain

Captain

Final Approach
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First Officer
I used to work for Amerijet based out of Miami Intn'l (KMIA). At the time they owned 9 B-727 aircraft and flew freight to South and Central America as well as the Island chain.

I have a ton of horror stories about the place but one I thought would drop all ya'll's jaw. The following is NOT something I heard about. It is something I witnessed first hand. This is not a joke or a silly hypothetical. It is fact that I would swear to in a court of law. I'm posting here to see what you all (especially those so well versed in FARs) think about it.

I have, on no fewer than 3 occasions, been in the right seat of a B-727 while the Captain directed the FE to dump fuel while on the glide slope over the city landing to the West in KMIA.

Hand on the Bible I swear on my kids lives it's true.

Discuss.
 
Oh, I forgot the why...sorry.

These guys waited until on the LOC to ask the FE what our weight was. On these occasions the FE responded we were a couple thousand over MGLW. A 'couple thousand' sounds bad...but it's a 197K MGTOW plane. 2,000 pounds is a rounding error. Heck, we planned 800 pounds just for taxi fuel and often blew through that.
 
If it were me, I think I would have landed with it and done the over weight inspection. Like Cameron said, it is a rounding error and the inspection isn't a big deal.

2,000 pounds is almost 300 gallons. In this penny pinching age, wasting nearly $750 in fuel is not a wise thing.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
If it were me, I think I would have landed with it and done the over weight inspection. Like Cameron said, it is a rounding error and the inspection isn't a big deal.

2,000 pounds is almost 300 gallons. In this penny pinching age, wasting nearly $750 in fuel is not a wise thing.
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Well look at you! You should be a detective.
 
I think the Capt should have tightened up and taken it if he was PNF and made damned sure his overgross landing went smooth and did no harm. 2k in that plane I'd man up rather than be dumping into what all runs into the Miami Springs. That's poor form all around. He f-ed up (everybody in that cockpit owns part of that morally BTW, all three of you have that duty to the public as professional, now he needs to sack up rather punish everyone for his incompetence at handling his command. If he bends the airplane, he owns the f-up, not the locals who are not a bunch of complainers. That approach is ecologically significant any direction. Did anyone call a go around? Didn't that rule exist, Anyone calls you do it sort it out later? That would have done it.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
If it were me, I think I would have landed with it and done the over weight inspection. Like Cameron said, it is a rounding error and the inspection isn't a big deal.

2,000 pounds is almost 300 gallons. In this penny pinching age, wasting nearly $750 in fuel is not a wise thing.
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Wait a tick...you're PoA management and dropped my name? Why?
 
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It's not a secret. But I'm pretty sure I never posted my name. If you got it from my PoA registration then that's sorta weird. If you sussed it out then you're quite the detective. Trace on of my pics I posted here back or do we know each other? Or something else...?
 
Captain said:
It's not a secret. But I'm pretty sure I never posted my name. If you got it from my PoA registration then that's sorta weird. If you sussed it out then you're quite the detective.
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Only take a few minutes on Google based on what you've posted in this community already to find your name, your employer, and more. Anyone on the forum could do it..has absolutely nothing to do with your registration.
 
Captain said:
It's not a secret. But I'm pretty sure I never posted my name. If you got it from my PoA registration then that's sorta weird. If you sussed it out then you're quite the detective. Trace on of my pics I posted here back or do we know each other? Or something else...?
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jesse said:
Only take a few minutes on Google based on what you've posted in this community already to find your name, your employer, and more. Anyone on the forum could do it..has absolutely nothing to do with your registration.
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To top it off, you should be careful when you're surfing the BB at the airport. Never know which spy pilot might be standing behind you and recognize the BB on the laptop.
 
Okay okay...I'm Cameron. It's not a big deal. I admit when I noticed PoA Management I was a tad suspicious...but whatever.

So...howz about that fuel dumping.
 
2,000 pounds is almost 300 gallons. In this penny pinching age, wasting nearly $750 in fuel is not a wise thing.
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You buy cheap fuel. That's nearly twenty five hundred dollars fuel for us.

I make sure I check the aircraft gross weight before the approach is ever commenced. In fact, it's listed on the landing data card, and verified against our actual weight, given fuel burns at the time of arrival. The weight is part of the calculation, and it's got to be included in the trip records (which do get audited), so why would one arrive on final without having any idea of one's weight? Weight is the determining factor in the approach speeds, flap speeds, etc.

Normally if our weight is within 10,000 lbs, we are good to go. We don't land overgross, and would never knowingly do so (save in an emergency), but for weight calculations, once our trip fuel is determined, we have a 10,000 lbs leeway above or below on our weights, without needing a new weight and balance calculation, or flight release/flight plan. More than 10,000, we require a new one, with new calculations.

If one is within 2,000 lbs of fuel, configure early and it will be gone in no time at all. Problem solved.

Dumping on final is a really idiotic thing to do, however, and a good way to incur some big penalties. It doesn't surprise me for amerijet.

14 CFR 91.13 leaps to mind.
 
The Captain sort of ticked me off with his nit-picking on Peggy, but dropping his real name on a board like this is bad form and I think at the least, he deserves an apology. Yeah I know, it is a public board and anyone with Google and a little curiosity could dig it out, but still ...

I would rather just give him a hard time for not reporting this.
 
DouglasBader said:
You buy cheap fuel. That's nearly twenty five hundred dollars fuel for us.

I make sure I check the aircraft gross weight before the approach is ever commenced. In fact, it's listed on the landing data card, and verified against our actual weight, given fuel burns at the time of arrival. The weight is part of the calculation, and it's got to be included in the trip records (which do get audited), so why would one arrive on final without having any idea of one's weight? Weight is the determining factor in the approach speeds, flap speeds, etc.

Normally if our weight is within 10,000 lbs, we are good to go. We don't land overgross, and would never knowingly do so (save in an emergency), but for weight calculations, once our trip fuel is determined, we have a 10,000 lbs leeway above or below on our weights, without needing a new weight and balance calculation, or flight release/flight plan. More than 10,000, we require a new one, with new calculations.

If one is within 2,000 lbs of fuel, configure early and it will be gone in no time at all. Problem solved.

Dumping on final is a really idiotic thing to do, however, and a good way to incur some big penalties. It doesn't surprise me for amerijet.

14 CFR 91.13 leaps to mind.
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If it makes you feel better I was in initial training thinking, "I gotta find a new job". The pay going from 60K promised to 30K calculated from INDOC and the explanation that exemption 3585 allowed us to depart with weather below mins as long as we had a T/O alt did it. I was only there for about 8 months and the whole time I was job hunting.
 
JOhnH said:
The Captain sort of ticked me off with his nit-picking on Peggy, but dropping his real name on a board like this is bad form and I think at the least, he deserves an apology. Yeah I know, it is a public board and anyone with Google and a little curiosity could dig it out, but still ...

I would rather just give him a hard time for not reporting this.
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It's okay about the name thing and I did report the dumping all three times to the FSDO. No action taken that I know of.
 
Fuel prices really vary. We pay under three bucks some places, but over eight in others.

Then again, I've been some places where it's a ten grand ramp fee in cash (Kabul in the early days), and that buys about three hours, no fuel (fuel was extra at an exorbitant premium).

If we're going to dump fuel, it's not going to be a measily 2000 grand, though. Normally all I care about if we're going to dump (needs to be a good reason) is that we make our landing weight. Figure 4000 to 6000 lbs a minute to get there, and it's always part of our takeoff calculation and briefing. As for arrival, dropping the gear early and putting out the initial flap and leading edge device configuration will quickly take care of any extra fuel.

With concerns such as fuel dumping on the final approach course, calling the national 800 number (800-255-1111) is a better choice than calling the FSDO, and it will do more to protect you.

I'm not sure what you mean about departing with the weather below minimums. Of course you can depart with the weather below mins if you have a takeoff alternate. That's really the point of having a takeoff alternate.
 
DouglasBader said:
Fuel prices really vary. We pay under three bucks some places, but over eight in others.

Then again, I've been some places where it's a ten grand ramp fee in cash (Kabul in the early days), and that buys about three hours, no fuel (fuel was extra at an exorbitant premium).

If we're going to dump fuel, it's not going to be a measily 2000 grand, though. Normally all I care about if we're going to dump (needs to be a good reason) is that we make our landing weight. Figure 4000 to 6000 lbs a minute to get there, and it's always part of our takeoff calculation and briefing. As for arrival, dropping the gear early and putting out the initial flap and leading edge device configuration will quickly take care of any extra fuel.

With concerns such as fuel dumping on the final approach course, calling the national 800 number (800-255-1111) is a better choice than calling the FSDO, and it will do more to protect you.

I'm not sure what you mean about departing with the weather below minimums. Of course you can depart with the weather below mins if you have a takeoff alternate. That's really the point of having a takeoff alternate.
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Sorry to show my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with that number. What is it?

--break---

Sure, you can depart with a T/O alternate...but it has NOTHING to do with exemption 3585. That place is scary on many levels.
 
The 800 number is the national safety hotline. Calls to that number will be investigated. Calls to the FSDO may disappear.

Exemption 3585 allows departure with the destination forecast to be below minimums, such as found in a TEMPO in the TAF. It adds additional requirements, such as a second alternate.
 
Captain said:
I have, on no fewer than 3 occasions, been in the right seat of a B-727 while the Captain directed the FE to dump fuel while on the glide slope over the city landing to the West in KMIA.
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Any chance you regularly go jogging and carpool with this same captain? :rofl:
 
MSPAviator said:
Any chance you regularly go jogging and carpool with this same captain? :rofl:
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No. jerk jogger and jerk driver were both in 'Hangar Talk'. This is an aviation section and I look at that as a place for serious discussion.
 
DouglasBader said:
The 800 number is the national safety hotline. Calls to that number will be investigated. Calls to the FSDO may disappear.

Exemption 3585 allows departure with the destination forecast to be below minimums, such as found in a TEMPO in the TAF. It adds additional requirements, such as a second alternate.
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Yeah, I know what it's for. Imagine you're in IDOC and the instructor is telling you it's also for T/O alternates when the weather is below landing mins. What do you do then? Cooperate and graduate? Me, I shut up and started my job search.
 
Captain said:
What do rolley eyes mean? Are you thinking of posting my address too?
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Maybe he's referring to the "serious discussion" part...

Or, have it your way and let the paranoids get you...

Your choice, choose wisely.
 
Captain said:
This is an aviation section and I look at that as a place for serious discussion.
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I don't think forum management here is as rigid as some places.
 
Everything is super-serious and professional on the Internet. Factual errors and errors of omission or bias do not exist.










;)
 
Captain said:
I used to work for Amerijet based out of Miami Intn'l (KMIA). At the time they owned 9 B-727 aircraft and flew freight to South and Central America as well as the Island chain.

.
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Freight dogs flying out of KMIA and probably based at the NW coner of MIA, commonly known as "corrosion corner"will get away with murder... Even the FAA hates to wander over there and kick some tires.:eek:
 
Captain said:
Okay okay...I'm Cameron. It's not a big deal. I admit when I noticed PoA Management I was a tad suspicious...but whatever.

So...howz about that fuel dumping.
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I just assumed he referred to your username - which is posted right by every one of your posts - and which is captaincameron
 
Do people really think I'm making this up? A few have chimed in what a crappy operator the cargo outfits are in Miami are and they wouldn't doubt it. Or do people think dumping fuel on the GP ove a major city is an okay thing?
 
Captain said:
Do people really think I'm making this up? A few have chimed in what a crappy operator the cargo outfits are in Miami are and they wouldn't doubt it. Or do people think dumping fuel on the GP ove a major city is an okay thing?
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What would you like us to do about it? ;)

If its happening and we disagree, I can't quite go calling the 800 number saying "Some guy on the Internet is saying this happens!"

Probably get put on a crackpot list somewhere.

Feel free to call the safety number with date, time, callsign, and your name. :)
 
denverpilot said:
What would you like us to do about it? ;)

If its happening and we disagree, I can't quite go calling the 800 number saying "Some guy on the Internet is saying this happens!"

Probably get put on a crackpot list somewhere.

Feel free to call the safety number with date, time, callsign, and your name. :)
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Okay, that's fair. For some reason I thought this might spark more discussion.
 
Captain said:
Okay, that's fair. For some reason I thought this might spark more discussion.
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I figured it'd lead down some green/non-green discussion path, and I didn't want to post the article where Oregon now wants permission to shoot endangered cormorants to save spawning salmon. They already got permission to shoot sea lions eating the salmon previously. Really. ;)

I think grandpa had it right about Government... "Fix one thing, f--- up two more." ;)
 
Captain said:
Do people really think I'm making this up?
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Well... Since you've been known to embellish to make a point, maybe the Captain didn't dump fuel from the airplane but instead dumped it on the ramp in Miami from a fuel strainer.
 
Everskyward said:
Well... Since you've been known to embellish to make a point, maybe the Captain didn't dump fuel from the airplane but instead dumped it on the ramp in Miami from a fuel strainer.
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It's not my fault people on this forum don't care about forum sections and are tolerant of random posts in any old section. I've grouped my posts to appropriate sections iaw the labels listed on each section.

Hangar talk is just that. Cleared For the Approach, imho, is for a more serious discussion.

I am new and am sort of learning the ropes. For some reason I thought a part of 'learning the ropes' would involve reading the rules. Turns out the rules don't apply. That's okay. But I choose to follow them. No disrespect to Aunt Peggy or anyone else.
 
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