Everskyward
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Everskyward
How about "Pilot Training"?
Dumping fuel over Miami
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Greg Bockelman
I for one don't think you are making it up. There are some pretty shady operators out there and nothing surprises me in the non sked or freight world.
Captain
Final Approach
I thought about putting it there. It seemed to me that Pilot Training was more of a spot for folks working on their primary ratings. Planes dumping fuel seemed above that. Although, with that said, Cleared for the Approach seems like IFR ops and that's not this either. I was admittedly a tad confused where exactly to stick this.
Thank you.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
You don't get it, do you? It has nothing to do with where you are putting threads. Your large embellishment about your experience at KBJC was in the Pilot Training section.
Ok, why didn't you initiate a go around? That would have ended the need for the dump.
Captain
Final Approach
How would I do that? Tell the captain whos dumping fuel over a city to 'go around'? I don't think he would.
Captain
Final Approach
I didn't embellishment anything. What don't you believe?
Everskyward
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Everskyward
One Short
Line Up and Wait
I didn't want to post the article where Oregon now wants permission to shoot endangered cormorants to save spawning salmon. They already got permission to shoot sea lions eating the salmon previously. Really.
Just to encourage a little thread drift:
Cormorants aren't seriously on the endangered species list, are they? They seem to breed like bunnies in Michigan. I've seen them at my place in Wyoming and I saw one the other day in Maine. They can decimate a fish population faster than Heron can empty the fish from a pond.
Barb
Reach over and shove the power forward, by the time he's got that squared away he no longer needs to dump fuel.
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timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
I believe he added that afterwards. His username has been simply captain.
And, by the way, once you change your username, avatar, or anything else, it makes the change to all your previous posts too.
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Greg Bockelman
Yeah, and in a lot of places that would get you fired. Not that that would be a big loss at a company like that.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
As it should. Pretty stupid suggestion.
He said he was looking and didn't like the place from indoc. To allow yourself to be bought off in complicity of gross pollution and major environmental faux paux? No sir and I'd fight it as wrongful termination in court and I'd win. What's your self respect worth? Do you think the company approves of the captain's actions? Luckily the neighborhood they would have dumped on doesn't call the Popo fo nuttin.
RotorAndWing
Final Approach
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Captain
Final Approach
What? I said I was on the runway of KBJC in '87 and I was. It's a true statement. Maybe I led you to believe I was in a plane at the time...but I never said I was in a plane.
Point remains, aside from 'Hangar Talk' I've never told a lie on this forum. In 'Hangar Talk' I posted scenarios to spark conversation. It worked to and was interesting. That's what 'Hangar Talk' is for...IMHO.
Captain
Final Approach
Super idea. When you're in a 121 crew and the skipper does something you don't like give that a try. Let us know how it turns out. I hear the FAA loves it when a crew starts fighting in the cockpit...especially on final.
btw, on every occasion I thought he was kidding...then I turned my head and saw the FE with the fuel xfer panel open and then realized we were IN THE PROCESS of dumping fuel.l
Captain
Final Approach
Yes, that. Don't know how to make the little dude say that with his sign...but yes that.
So you never even said a word when he mentioned it, not even the second and third times? What did you report to the FSDO, that you were a giant dummy and your captain was a duchebag?
Everskyward
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dell30rb
Final Approach
come on man! you're asking for it.
What would happen to fuel dumped at 2000 agl? Would it evaporate or shower down? I'd think it would evaporate for the most part.
Not the best thing for the environment, obviously. But how long ago was this?
Captain
Final Approach
At that point I was just a guy trying to hold on to get another job. I had a wife and two boys. At the time they were around 4 and 2. I needed the health insurance if not just for them. I knew where I was at was crap...but I needed a place to land. I couldn't just be unemployed, so I sucked it up. Did I like it? Hell no. It was the worst experience of my life. But I got through it and moved on. Like I said, I decided in INDOC that I needed a new job.
I could go on for an hour of all the crazy crap that company pulled. But the worst, IMHO, was the scab captains dumping fuel all over downtown Miami just so they didn't land a couple thousands pounds over weight. That's the crazy part. There is no computer to log overweight landings like other planes. It's a 1960's B-727. The only way anyone in the world could know is if the next crew topped off and then bounced that amount of weight against the cargo of our inbound trip.
That was never, in a kabillion years, going to happen. They were lucky to know what country each plane was in at a given time. No way were they cross checking landing weights against fuel uploads. Landing over gross weight is a non-event anyway. You just log it and Mx does an inspection. Plane doesn't even come out of service.
Captain
Final Approach
Yeah whatever...
Exactly, whatever. You think it's a big deal? I don't. Think we can both still live on the same planet?
Captain
Final Approach
Different Captains over 8 months. I never knew it was coming until it was happening. There never was a discussion about it. Nobody ever asked my input.
Captain
Final Approach
Honestly, I don't know how far it takes for fuel to atomize. I'd guess at least 2,000 feet. This was in the winter to fall of 2006.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
IMHO, was the scab captains dumping fuel all over downtown Miami just so they didn't land a couple thousands pounds over weight. QUOTE]..
I was raised in Miami and graduated from Coral Gables High in 74.... The prevailing wind is from the east /southeast 90% of the time so the approach to 8, or 9 or 12 is from the west.... Downtown is the wrong direction to be dumping fuel on final 90% of the time. You would have been releasing it next to 826, Tamiami Trail and out to Krome Ave... Back when I lived there it was nuttin but swamps, gaters and snakes. I know the area has grown like weeds but dumping fuel at 4000-6000 msl would aerosol it and the vast majority would blow to the west back out over the Everglades.... I can't see how you come to the "downtown" statement..
Captain
Final Approach
I was raised in Miami and graduated from Coral Gables High in 74.... The prevailing wind is from the east /southeast 90% of the time so the approach to 8, or 9 or 12 is from the west.... Downtown is the wrong direction to be dumping fuel on final 90% of the time. You would have been releasing it next to 826, Tamiami Trail and out to Krome Ave... Back when I lived there it was nuttin but swamps, gaters and snakes. I know the area has grown like weeds but dumping fuel at 4000-6000 msl would aerosol it and the vast majority would blow to the west back out over the Everglades.... I can't see how you come to the "downtown" statement.
We weren't near 4000 to 6000 msl. Look at the approach and see for yourself. We would normally land on 26L. The fuel dumping that I witnessed was inside 'AGLER'. We were OVER the city. Not the barrier island...the downtown city proper. You cross AGLER at 1600 MSL.
If this happened just once, and it was winter time then I can buy a landing to the west... You make it sound like this happened frequently.
And why would you wait till you were 4 miles , or 120 seconds from landing to dump fuel ?
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1204/00257IL26L.PDF
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Captain
Final Approach
If this happened just once, and it was winter time then I can buy a landing to the west... You make it sound like this happened frequently.
No. It was 3 times in 8 months. That's not 'frequent' in my book. But its enough to raise an eyebrow or two. And that's just the flights I was on. Figure 8 FO's per plane and they had 9 planes.
MSPAviator
Cleared for Takeoff
Did you consider jumping on your Captain and running away, or throwing a crumpled fast food wrapper at him to put him on notice of his inconsiderate operational behavior?
Captain
Final Approach
Did you consider jumping on your Captain and running away, or throwing a crumpled fast food wrapper at him to put him on notice of his inconsiderate operational behavior?
I've covered this. In my mind this forum has sections. 'Is my friend a jerk' was posted exclusively in Hangar Talk. Most forums have guidelines. Well, better put, most forums enforce guidelines. This forum has them but chooses not to enforce them. That's okay. Users don't want to group posts, then fine...whatever. But I do group my posts and I've stated this before. This thread is factual, as in real life no ****.
MSPAviator
Cleared for Takeoff
Did anyone complain ?
That generation plane puts out unburnt fuel in routine operation. My grandma lived right under the final approach for a major airport for 50 years, ever so often stuff in the yard was covered with a oily layer. She lived to age 94, can't be all too harmful
That generation plane puts out unburnt fuel in routine operation. My grandma lived right under the final approach for a major airport for 50 years, ever so often stuff in the yard was covered with a oily layer. She lived to age 94, can't be all too harmful
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Dumping fuel on the ground in florida is a felony.....not that it stopped me. WTF am I supposed to do with it?
Gmaper
Pre-takeoff checklist
Here is a snip from an article about a Captain Guthrie who was a senior captain at Eastern Air Lines in Miami. He lived near me and I knew his children. His daughter Janet was, I believe, the first woman driver in the Indy 500.
"W. Lain Guthrie, a commercial airline pilot who became a cause celebre after he was dismissed for refusing, for environmental and safety reasons, to dump waste jet fuel from his plane, died on Sunday at his home in Miami. He was 84.
The cause was a heart attack, the family said.
On Aug. 1, 1970, on his 30th anniversary as a pilot for Eastern Airlines, Captain Guthrie made international headlines by refusing to dump waste kerosene into the atmosphere as was the common practice.
Instead, he kept his four-engine DC-8 on the ground and ordered the crew to drain the waste fuel that accumulated from the previous flight, before he would take off."
The entire article is available at http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/28/us/w-l-guthrie-84-pilot-dies-helped-end-dumping-of-fuel.html?_r=1
"W. Lain Guthrie, a commercial airline pilot who became a cause celebre after he was dismissed for refusing, for environmental and safety reasons, to dump waste jet fuel from his plane, died on Sunday at his home in Miami. He was 84.
The cause was a heart attack, the family said.
On Aug. 1, 1970, on his 30th anniversary as a pilot for Eastern Airlines, Captain Guthrie made international headlines by refusing to dump waste kerosene into the atmosphere as was the common practice.
Instead, he kept his four-engine DC-8 on the ground and ordered the crew to drain the waste fuel that accumulated from the previous flight, before he would take off."
The entire article is available at http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/28/us/w-l-guthrie-84-pilot-dies-helped-end-dumping-of-fuel.html?_r=1
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Did you post this in the thread about Sonoma?
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I've never posted it before and I don't know what thread you are referring to.