DUIs automatic killer?

[evaneeds]

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to get some advice. I am thinking about getting into a career in flying however I have 2 DUis on my record, one in '02 and one early '11. I know that I most likely will never fly for an airline but what about the possibility of flying for a charter company or something of that nature? I am just trying to figure out if I should invest the money only to find out a year or two down the road I cant get a job anywhere. Thanks for all the advice!

 

[Henning]

There's always someone willing to hire a drunk, trick will be getting a Second Class medical.

 

[bbchien]

DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD. Doesn't matter if for an airline or for company.

Two is a lifetime is, FAA the automatic diagnosis of repetitive alcohol abuse.

Unless you can show (1) proven abstinence for more than 8 months (randoms, sponsored think $2,000 per year), and (2) A HIMs neuropsychologist finds no cognitive defects associated with alcohol ($2,500) after that 8 months, and a HIMS forensic psychiatrist concludes after the 8 months, that your chronic abuse is in recovery ($1,500), and you really are, and (3) You can support continued monitoring and sponsorship for the next 2 years, and (4) can support a return round with the psychiatrist, you have no chance.

Or you could go 10 years with no recurrent DUI and just do the Substance Abuse evaluation by a State licensed SAP.

Sorry, alcohol and aviation do not mix, and Congress has mandated that FAA make that so.

 

[Tristar]

Probably be hard getting into canada for a while. DUI is a serious offense there.

 

[bbchien]

Probably be hard getting into canada for a while. DUI is a serious offense there.

Yah. it's Criminal there. They won't let you in. You can get it waived after 5 years proven good behavior, you write the ambassador and fill out a 15 page application.

Best to choose some other occupation or come back clean, after 10. Sorry, I cannot offer you any better.

 

[Tristar]

Or find something that doesn't require you flying to canada.

 

[Henning]

Blame Canada!!!

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Though I dont have any DUIs, I have noticed that compared to other countries the police hand those things out like candy here.


I dont want drunks on the roads, but it seems like the DUIs have moved away from public safety into the realm of revenue generation for PDs

 

[bbchien]

Helicopter. But short of making a huge commitment to a life change and forking up the dough, he's at least 2 years away from even a 3rd class, which one can get with 2 years of proven abstinence, evidence of recovery activities, and a single assessment at the end from a Psychiatrist.....

In short, I don't think so. Unless evaneds makes a tremendous commitment.

Though I dont have any DUIs, I have noticed that compared to other countries the police hand those things out like candy here.

I think that's because the drivers here drink like fish. Breathalyzers are everywhere. Do a ride along. It'll peel your eyeball back. It an LEO needs to make quota he just needs to ride on Saturday night. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[Henning]

Though I dont have any DUIs, I have noticed that compared to other countries the police hand those things out like candy here.


I dont want drunks on the roads, but it seems like the DUIs have moved away from public safety into the realm of revenue generation for PDs

??? I'm all over the world, Europe and Australia have far more "booze busts" set up with much tougher first offense penalties. Singapore you get 7 lashes with the cane IIRC.

 

[Clip4]

Though I dont have any DUIs, I have noticed that compared to other countries the police hand those things out like candy here.


I dont want drunks on the roads, but it seems like the DUIs have moved away from public safety into the realm of revenue generation for PDs

Actually, the members of you state's bar association are the one's knocking down the jack from DUIs.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Though I dont have any DUIs, I have noticed that compared to other countries the police hand those things out like candy here.


I dont want drunks on the roads, but it seems like the DUIs have moved away from public safety into the realm of revenue generation for PDs

Try living in AZ. It's 10x worse here than anywhere else. Which is fine by me.. there are progressively less & less DUIs and DUI deaths here.. I just take a cab home, it's not that difficult.

 

[denverpilot]

Heh. One of the most obnoxious Personal Injury Attorneys in Denver, complete with cheesy late night TV ads about how he got some lady $2.1M from her insurance company who "wouldn't pay", ran and tried to hide in some bushes at his DUI stop. He weighs about 300 lbs. He's a real piece of work.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

I just know I've been stopped at those BS check points and followed on sat nights (even though sat for me is like monday for other people).

If I was swerving, or drunk, yeah OK harass me, but over here its like salivating dogs.

 

[denverpilot]

Your SCOTUS gave away that 4th Amendment right. Probable cause is outdated thinking from the days before we were all criminal suspects.

 

[flyingron]

I spent many years as a paramedic scraping up people on the roads. I can tell you that there IS a pretty darned good correlation with injury accidents and drinking. All too often, it's some innocent sober person who is killed by the drunk.

Perhaps the real issue is that the screen isn't working. People drive drunk despite the current enforcement and likely outcomes. They keep lowering the BAC like that is going to make things easier, but the probability of getting caught is still the same, hence it's not reforming most people's behavior. It does mean that we're giving criminal records to a lot of people with only minimal impairment without affecting the severely intoxicated.

Of course, I've had family friends killed by fatigued heavy dump truck drivers, and a friend who was a senior US Air pilot knocked out of his career and put in a wheelchair by a sober but reckless truck driver who decided to roll the dice against slowing down as to whether turning traffic would clear ahead of him. This was not the FIRST time he did that.

 

[Geico266]

No one wants drunks on the road, but it has gone way over board IMHO. Cell phones and texting, tweeting, facebooking while driving now cause far more incidents of distracted driving and accidents than alcohol does.

Say if you had a few and are sitting at a red light and get hit by a kid texting it is an alcohol related crash.

 

[JeffDG]

Though I dont have any DUIs, I have noticed that compared to other countries the police hand those things out like candy here.

You know what? I have a secret method to avoid getting busted for DUI...using this method, I've never, not once, been arrested for DUI.

You ready for it...free of charge, I won't even charge you for some long-winded seminar to get the secret:
I don't drive after drinking.

 

[JeffDG]

Not even sure what the penalties are here (never really cared what the law is for something that I just don't do), but in Canada, your first offense will get you at least 12 months driving prohibition, a fine, and a criminal record. Second offense is 30 days in jail, 24 month driving prohibition (although many provinces extend this to 3 years).

Generally speaking, if you are charged with DUI, your license is immediately suspended for 90 days while they work out the court stuff.

 

[Henning]

Your SCOTUS gave away that 4th Amendment right. Probable cause is outdated thinking from the days before we were all the enemy.

FTFY

 

[Henning]

I spent many years as a paramedic scraping up people on the roads. I can tell you that there IS a pretty darned good correlation with injury accidents and drinking. All too often, it's some innocent sober person who is killed by the drunk.

Perhaps the real issue is that the screen isn't working. People drive drunk despite the current enforcement and likely outcomes. They keep lowering the BAC like that is going to make things easier, but the probability of getting caught is still the same, hence it's not reforming most people's behavior. It does mean that we're giving criminal records to a lot of people with only minimal impairment without affecting the severely intoxicated.

Of course, I've had family friends killed by fatigued heavy dump truck drivers, and a friend who was a senior US Air pilot knocked out of his career and put in a wheelchair by a sober but reckless truck driver who decided to roll the dice against slowing down as to whether turning traffic would clear ahead of him. This was not the FIRST time he did that.

Can you name me one instance in history where a law changed behavior? All laws are is a tax on bad behavior, that's it. Prohibition failed, the 'War on Drugs' failed, DUI busting failed, it all fails.

 

[steingar]

You ready for it...free of charge, I won't even charge you for some long-winded seminar to get the secret:
I don't drive after drinking.

I usually hate it when people give simplistic solutions to complex problems, but I'm afraid I'm on board with this. I've given myself zero tolerance to drive or ride after any kind of drinking. The sad side effect is drinking has gone for me from a social activity to a solitary one.

 

[Bill]

Say if you had a few and are sitting at a red light and get hit by a kid texting it is an alcohol related crash.

And in my state instantly 100% YOUR fault if you're drunk.

 

[JeffDG]

I usually hate it when people give simplistic solutions to complex problems, but I'm afraid I'm on board with this. I've given myself zero tolerance to drive or ride after any kind of drinking. The sad side effect is drinking has gone for me from a social activity to a solitary one.

As I've aged, I've found the allure of booze to diminish considerably...not for any reason like I was ever a drunk or anything (hell, if I had more than 3 beers in a night it was a par-tay back in the day), but just because it provides very little benefit to me.

I bought a dozen beer on one of my trips to Canada, and I finally finished the last one 6 months later.

 

[Clip4]

Can you name me one instance in history where a law changed behavior? All laws are is a tax on bad behavior, that's it. Prohibition failed, the 'War on Drugs' failed, DUI busting failed, it all fails.

Ask anyone who was in the bar business pre-1984 if the change in DUI laws and increased enforcement changed behavior. Not only did it reduce the amount of DUI over time, it reduced the amount of alcohol being consumed.

 

[1600vw]

Though I dont have any DUIs, I have noticed that compared to other countries the police hand those things out like candy here.


I dont want drunks on the roads, but it seems like the DUIs have moved away from public safety into the realm of revenue generation for PDs

They are trying to lower the limit to .04 across the nation. They have started taking monies from these fines and putting it towards paying our police.
Its a conflict of interest. The more they hand out these DUi's the more money the department makes. These fines go right back to the police department.
.04 or .03 0r .02 is not drunk driving, but they are making it that way.

 

[DFH65]

I don't drink so I am a bit biased but I have no sympathy for people who drink and drive.

There is NO excuse. Back in the day I worked nights at UPS and got out at 3AM and almost every night (not an exaggeration) I watched people swerve all over the roads and bounce off guard rails. DUI arrests for police are like shooting fish in a barrel.

And when someone says this was a one time thing I say BULL it was the one time you got caught.

I am a minarchist libertarian and I have no love for our current police state but you only need to look at the accident statistics and see that DUI while improving is a still a HUGE problem (somewhere around 30% of all traffic fatalities). I am not sure what the answers all are but improvement is still needed.

 

[1600vw]

I don't drink so I am a bit biased but I have no sympathy for people who drink and drive.

There is NO excuse. Back in the day I worked nights at UPS and got out at 3AM and almost every night (not an exaggeration) I watched people swerve all over the roads and bounce off guard rails. DUI arrests for police are like shooting fish in a barrel.

And when someone says this was a one time thing I say BULL it was the one time you got caught.

I am a minarchist libertarian and I have no love for our current police state but you only need to look at the accident statistics and see that DUI while improving is a still a HUGE problem (somewhere around 30% of all traffic fatalities). I am not sure what the answers all are but improvement is still needed.

I remember when we could ride in the front seat with no seat belt, stand next to dad and steer as he drank his beer. Amazing any of us lived through it. I about fell out a car door from leaning on it, dad caught me by my angle or I would have been road kill, I was around 3yrs old at the time.

Everytime I come up on a check point and a cop asks..you been drinking...I say..was I driving like I had been drinking. They get all defensive but oh well.

 

[Tristar]

Be careful about not turning this post into a "don't drink and drive" post and bad experiences. He knows it's bad which is why he's asking. What he wants to know is what are his options and if going for a career is worth it. The answer is yes and no. There are jobs out there that can look past this but many airlines and corporate jobs may not. I don't know what my bosses would say exactly but most of the flying I do is in the united states and even pretty much in the same state. Since there is more than one of us, you might be able to get by with it but I could see them being a bit timid just because of having a limitation. Now, if a company wants you bad enough and they don't fly to places that are so strict then yes you'd be fine. You could probably be a skydiver, sight seeing, or maybe even an island hopping pilot with no problem and there are lots of big operations out there. The biggest saver will honestly be time. The more time you put between your last DUI and your first job the better. I'm not sure where you are in your flying but there would be nothing wrong with going sport and building up some good cross country experience while you wait a few years to apply for a medical. Now, having said that, I have no idea what the medical requirements are with DUIs and 2nd classes. I'd check that out first before even considering it. I won't lie, if its something you want go for it...but it will be a bit of a battle. Just whatever you do, don't get another DUI.

 

[Skylane81E]

Though I dont have any DUIs, I have noticed that compared to other countries the police hand those things out like candy here.


I dont want drunks on the roads, but it seems like the DUIs have moved away from public safety into the realm of revenue generation for PDs

Cops hate giving DUIs, lots of work, too often ****ed away on a technicality and even when it works out the offender gets a slap on the wrist and gets right back behind the wheel until someone ends up dead

 

[1600vw]

Cops hate giving DUIs, lots of work, too often ****ed away on a technicality and even when it works out the offender gets a slap on the wrist and gets right back behind the wheel until someone ends up dead

Try to tell this to someone in California. I worked with a few people in California whom spent over 20 grand each over first DUI. Do they still drink and drive I have no idea but they hated spending 20 grand to get their license back.

 

[JeffDG]

Try to tell this to someone in California. I worked with a few people in California whom spent over 20 grand each over first DUI. Do they still drink and drive I have no idea but they hated spending 20 grand to get their license back.

Oh well, breaking the law has consequences.

 

[Sac Arrow]

What if the OP were to get a ICAO compliant license and medical from some other country that doesn't give a f**k about automobile DUI's (yes there are some) and use it to fly here?

 

[JeffDG]

What if the OP were to get a ICAO compliant license and medical from some other country that doesn't give a f**k about automobile DUI's (yes there are some) and use it to fly here?

That would permit the OP to fly aircraft registered in that ICAO country in the United States. It would not permit the OP to fly N-registered aircraft in the US, however.

 

[Henning]

What if the OP were to get a ICAO compliant license and medical from some other country that doesn't give a f**k about automobile DUI's (yes there are some) and use it to fly here?

LOL, What country would that be? Go get a medical in Europe or Australia and you'll see that here it's a walk in the park. The other issue is that he could fly in say Africa on that license and medical, but not in the US. Same for me in Australia, for private ops I could just get a conversion from CASA based on my license, however for commercial ops I had to do an Aussie CPL (only had to do the Air Law written, one of 7 required there, and a checkride; also a Spraysafe and AgOps written to cover my 137 endorsement) and Class I medical.

His choice for flying is Sport Pilot or 103 Ultralight if he loses his drivers license, neither of which is a career path.

 

[dell30rb]

DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD. Doesn't matter if for an airline or for company.

Two is a lifetime is, FAA the automatic diagnosis of repetitive alcohol abuse.

Unless you can show (1) proven abstinence for more than 8 months (randoms, sponsored think $2,000 per year), and (2) A HIMs neuropsychologist finds no cognitive defects associated with alcohol ($2,500) after that 8 months, and a HIMS forensic psychiatrist concludes after the 8 months, that your chronic abuse is in recovery ($1,500), and you really are, and (3) You can support continued monitoring and sponsorship for the next 2 years, and (4) can support a return round with the psychiatrist, you have no chance.

Or you could go 10 years with no recurrent DUI and just do the Substance Abuse evaluation by a State licensed SAP.

That's a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of obtaining the ratings and hours needed to fly 135 charter or airlines, and it may very well take him 8 years to do it.

 

[bbchien]

What if the OP were to get a ICAO compliant license and medical from some other country that doesn't give a f**k about automobile DUI's (yes there are some) and use it to fly here?

He can fly in Zambia. That's about it. There are 102 signatories to the ICAO treaty. China, India, Australia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, "DEATH TO AMERICA" Iran,

.....always looking for a way to evade, but no place to hide.

It's the usual antiauthority characters here, Geico and Sac, that are preventing this from being a "what can he do" string. Many options with just one DUI, just non-hims HIMS with two. "Rational Recovery" where are you?

He asked. I told it to him straight.

 

[Sac Arrow]

He can fly in Zambia. That's about it. There are 102 signatories to the ICAO treaty. China, India, Australia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, "DEATH TO AMERICA" Iran,

.....always looking for a way to evade, but no place to hide.

It's the usual antiauthority characters here, Geico and Sac, that are preventing this from being a "what can he do" string. Many options with just one DUI, just non-hims HIMS with two. "Rational Recovery" where are you?

He asked. I told it to him straight.

Dr. Bruce,

There is no doubt that you gave the OP the straight scoop. You know the system. But I don't think my point of view is anti-authoritarian. By the standard of restricting one's flying based on non-aviation related actions is paramount to punishing one for a thought crime. I know alcohol and aviation don't mix. It will never happen, for me. And never has.

 

[Henning]

Dr. Bruce,

There is no doubt that you gave the OP the straight scoop. You know the system. But I don't think my point of view is anti-authoritarian. By the standard of restricting one's flying based on non-aviation related actions is paramount to punishing one for a thought crime. I know alcohol and aviation don't mix. It will never happen, for me. And never has.

You mean tantamount? I still don't see the correlation. If you are willing to drive a car drunk, there is a high risk that you are willing to fly a plane drunk, airline pilots prove this frequently.

 

[Sac Arrow]

You mean tantamount? I still don't see the correlation. If you are willing to drive a car drunk, there is a high risk that you are willing to fly a plane drunk, airline pilots prove this frequently.

Yeah, tantamount, thank you, I always have a loss for words. Here's my thing, I won't ride a bicycle if I'm drunk. Why? Because I crash. Airline pilots probably feel they can get away with flying the plane drunk because usually the autopilot is flying the plane anyway. I'm guessing, I don't know. All I know is that if I'm flying a flight simulator, I'm fine normally. If I drink a beer, I start crashing. Drink a beer in a real plane? No bueno.