Dual Day & Night Commercial Cross Country

CC268

CC268

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CC268
61.129 (3) (iii) & (iv) state the following:

(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

My plan was to do a flight from KDVT to KNYL (Deer Valley to Yuma), which is ~140 miles straight line distance. The route is not direct however (DVT1 PXR V95 POTER E63) and would be right around the 2 hour mark. Plan would be to do the flight there during the day (late afternoon) and then flight back at night.

This would allow my instructor and I to bust out these cross countries in a single day. Am I interpreting this right?
 
Yes. What did your instructor say?
 
Cici said:
Yes. What did your instructor say?
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He thought that was fine and then called me back later as he was with another commercial student and said he thought we may have to do the flight there and back during the day and then another flight there and back during the night. I think he just got tripped up.
 
Just talked with my instructor and were all good...
 
So this should be the end of this thread.
 
CC268 said:
61.129 (3) (iii) & (iv) state the following:

(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

My plan was to do a flight from KDVT to KNYL (Deer Valley to Yuma), which is ~140 miles straight line distance. The route is not direct however (DVT1 PXR V95 POTER E63) and would be right around the 2 hour mark. Plan would be to do the flight there during the day (late afternoon) and then flight back at night.

This would allow my instructor and I to bust out these cross countries in a single day. Am I interpreting this right?
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Are the XCs required to be dual? You have a license [OK, certificate!] already, can't you just get in the plane and go? You may already have some that long already.

I was considering pursuing my CPL before I relocated 600 miles, and the instructors here when I had time [before my wife came down] would only teach in their 172s, but the maneuvers, speeds, power settings, etc., would not transfer well to my Mooney, so I gave up on it. My original CFI looked through my logbook and conceded that I had the XC time and only needed to learn and practice the maneuvers.
 
Hank S said:
Are the XCs required to be dual? You have a license [OK, certificate!] already, can't you just get in the plane and go? You may already have some that long already.
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Yes, these cross countries are under the training part of the requirements so the instructor must be along and providing instruction.
 
So I am trying to figure out what kind of instruction an instructor is supposed to give to a commercial student who may have many cross country hours already.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
So I am trying to figure out what kind of instruction an instructor is supposed to give to a commercial student who may have many cross country hours already.
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When I was working for a bigger flight school, I had someone put themselves on my schedule out of the blue for this purpose with no notice. I met them for the first time and learned the purpose of the flight when they walked in the door. Made it all the more difficult to try to be useful.

I don't think the requirement completely pointless, but it is probably a more valuable learning experience to do it during your actual commercial training with the instructor that is training you rather than treating it as a box to be checked. Some students try to do everything the easy way and they shortchange themselves in the process. They might need practice with dead reckoning, VOR tracking, or using ATC, for example...but an instructor you haven't worked with before isn't going to know your weak areas ahead of time.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
So I am trying to figure out what kind of instruction an instructor is supposed to give to a commercial student who may have many cross country hours already.
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That has been a common question on these forums and other pilot resources. By the time I did my commercial I had a couple of hundred hours of cross-country, some over 4 hours single leg and all over the middle of the US. Yet nowhere in my logbook did I have a two hour day and two hour night cross country with an instructor to fulfill this requirement. I have seen some protest that a good instructor will use the two hours to drill the commercial student with all kinds of scenarios, and make them work for it. I suppose that could be the intent, but lets face it, the regs don't say it explicitly, and I doubt too many make it more than it has to be.

This reg could make a lot of sense for a green pilot that is quickly working their way from zero through commercial with little outside experience, but its kind of a joke for other experienced pilots that are getting their commercial later in life. My instructor and I did get a nice dinner in the big city.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
So I am trying to figure out what kind of instruction an instructor is supposed to give to a commercial student who may have many cross country hours already.
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It seems silly to me, but I'm sure there is some good reason for it. I've done a lot of XC time since I own my own airplane...
 
Hank S said:
Are the XCs required to be dual? You have a license [OK, certificate!] already, can't you just get in the plane and go? You may already have some that long already.

I was considering pursuing my CPL before I relocated 600 miles, and the instructors here when I had time [before my wife came down] would only teach in their 172s, but the maneuvers, speeds, power settings, etc., would not transfer well to my Mooney, so I gave up on it. My original CFI looked through my logbook and conceded that I had the XC time and only needed to learn and practice the maneuvers.
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That is basically where I am at. I have the two dual cross countries (day & night) left to do (the ones listed in my OP). Other than that it is basically preparing for the oral and learning the maneuvers.
 
midwestpa24 said:
That has been a common question on these forums and other pilot resources. By the time I did my commercial I had a couple of hundred hours of cross-country, some over 4 hours single leg and all over the middle of the US. Yet nowhere in my logbook did I have a two hour day and two hour night cross country with an instructor to fulfill this requirement. I have seen some protest that a good instructor will use the two hours to drill the commercial student with all kinds of scenarios, and make them work for it. I suppose that could be the intent, but lets face it, the regs don't say it explicitly, and I doubt too many make it more than it has to be.

This reg could make a lot of sense for a green pilot that is quickly working their way from zero through commercial with little outside experience, but its kind of a joke for other experienced pilots that are getting their commercial later in life. My instructor and I did get a nice dinner in the big city.
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Agreed. It seems like maybe it is centered around the Part 141 folks? Idk, I'm not all that familiar with 141 tbh, but if it has the same requirements then I could see the reason.
 
It could be an accountability thing. Force you to have a witness (CFI) to at least one day and one night cross country, so you can’t pencil whip your way to the check ride without having left the traffic pattern since you got your private license.

It’s not a good reason, but at least it’s a rational one.
 
One would hope that the CFI has something useful to offer the prospective commercial pilot. More useful that just the sign-off in the logbook, that is.

Edit: PS, I will be doing mine next week.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
So I am trying to figure out what kind of instruction an instructor is supposed to give to a commercial student who may have many cross country hours already.
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I wondered that too. 15 years after getting my instrument rating I have decided to get the commercial. I thought I had many flights that meet the requirements. I re-read 61.129 and realized those two flights were part of the instruction and needed a CFI on board. I had the CFI I regularly do my flight reviews and safety pilot work ride along last week for the day XC. In the end, I think it was beneficial to have him along. We talked a lot about decision making along the way, diversions and other good information.

It is a segment of flying that you can go many years without any CFI instruction. My guess is that is part of the logic behind requiring a CFI to verify you are making good decisions en-route. That, and as others mentioned, a student just approaching 250 hours may not have been doing all that many cross country flights to new destinations.
 
midwestpa24 said:
This reg could make a lot of sense for a green pilot that is quickly working their way from zero through commercial with little outside experience, but its kind of a joke for other experienced pilots that are getting their commercial later in life. My instructor and I did get a nice dinner in the big city.
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I personally believe this was the reason for the requirement. Students trying to progress through their certificates and ratings as fast as possible often come up short in the real world experience category. Especially those flying in collegiate 141 environments.

I also don’t see this as being a bad way to spot check a commercial candidate to see what bad habits might have been picked up over the years. With the exception of maybe one cross country training trip during their instrument training, it is probably realistic to assume that the last real cross country training many people have received was during their primary training. That could be a long time ago for some people.
 
When I did my commercial 100 nm dual day xc, my CFI had me do it at 10,500 and 11,500 MSL. Gave me something new to experience, since I hadn't been up above 7,500 on any of my previous flights. So now I do that with my commercial students. It takes you into a new level (no pun intended) of flight experences -- high(er) altitude operations, talking to a Center ATC, calculating Top of Descent, etc.
 
midwestpa24 said:
That has been a common question on these forums and other pilot resources. By the time I did my commercial I had a couple of hundred hours of cross-country, some over 4 hours single leg and all over the middle of the US.
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I'm in this boat. I have 330 hours cross-country and have flown my Dakota from Reno to Cuba and Guatemala (different trips) and been to about 30 states. I have the day XC from buying my plane in Texas and flying it home to Reno with my CFI. Last month I made a solo 300 mile trip for the CPL since I didn't have that yet and sometime this winter I'll bring a CFI for the night XC. It's all a bit ridiculous with as much XC flying as I've done.
 
Jim_CAK said:
It is a segment of flying that you can go many years without any CFI instruction. My guess is that is part of the logic behind requiring a CFI to verify you are making good decisions en-route. That, and as others mentioned, a student just approaching 250 hours may not have been doing all that many cross country flights to new destinations.
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By the time I reached 250 hours, based in WV, I had made several trips to the NC coast, central Georgia and western WY . . . Since then, I've added upstate NY and south FL. Since moving to AL, I've been back to WV and all over NC including >9 hours one day with Operation Airdrop.

But I'll pay a CFI to ride along with me for a 45-minute trip somewhere one day, and one night . . . . because that's what the rules say . . . .
 
Hank S said:
By the time I reached 250 hours, based in WV, I had made several trips to the NC coast, central Georgia and western WY . . . Since then, I've added upstate NY and south FL. Since moving to AL, I've been back to WV and all over NC including >9 hours one day with Operation Airdrop.

But I'll pay a CFI to ride along with me for a 45-minute trip somewhere one day, and one night . . . . because that's what the rules say . . . .
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With an attitude like that you’re not going to learn anything...

I bet if you had an open mind and sat down with a good instructor and did the required flights there would be some area of operation, big or small, that you could learn about.

Those flights had better be more than 45 minutes too, or else you still wont have met the requirements and you’ll get to do them again. ;)
 
mondtster said:
Those flights had better be more than 45 minutes too, or else you still wont have met the requirements and you’ll get to do them again. ;)
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100 nm at 145 KTAS = 0.689 hours = 41.4 minutes. I can easily leave my sleepy uncontrolled field in 3.6 minutes from engine start, with a full runup at the hold short.

100 nm is hardly a long XC.
 
Hank S said:
100 nm at 145 KTAS = 0.689 hours = 41.4 minutes. I can easily leave my sleepy uncontrolled field in 3.6 minutes from engine start, with a full runup at the hold short.

100 nm is hardly a long XC.
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Read the reg quoted at the top of the page. 45 minutes ain’t going to cut it.
 
mondtster said:
Read the reg quoted at the top of the page. 45 minutes ain’t going to cut it.
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OK, so it's 2 hours. Who flies 2 hours without going 100 nm? Even stopping to shoot approaches along the way?

At least that's a long enough flight to see weather variations, change the radio several times and maybe go somewhere new. Makes a lot more sense. Opens up the options for dinner with the instructor a lot! Out during the day, stop and eat, back after dark.
 
Hank S said:
OK, so it's 2 hours. Who flies 2 hours without going 100 nm? Even stopping to shoot approaches along the way?

At least that's a long enough flight to see weather variations, change the radio several times and maybe go somewhere new. Makes a lot more sense. Opens up the options for dinner with the instructor a lot! Out during the day, stop and eat, back after dark.
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See, you’re already learning stuff! :)

I believe your assessment and the lack of experience many commercial candidates have is exactly why this requirement exists.
 
Hey, wait--would my Instrument XC with CFII count as the Day XC? It was over two hours and included landing more than 100 nm straight line from the start point. We also ended up back at home . . . NC counts for the Long XC, I had >9 hours with 6 landings, and other than my outbound fuel stop and return trip, they were all 400 nm from home.

I think many of us fall into the trap of thinking that the XC must all be outwards and away, when it can actually be a roundrobin flight with a landing somewhere as required. Out of "student pilot" mode, many of us stop thinking like this.
 
The commercial dual flights are VFR flights, don't log hood time on them.
 
Well the 20 hours dual for commercial does have to be on subjects covered in §61.127(b)(1).

Would the CFII have labelled the IFR XC flight as meeting those requirements or 61.65c ?
 
Hank S said:
OK, so it's 2 hours. Who flies 2 hours without going 100 nm? Even stopping to shoot approaches along the way?
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While proposed by the OP as being done back to back, the flights do not need to be done as such. You can leave one day, fly 100 nm away and then come back, and if in a conventional trainer, it should be more than 2 hours. You can then fly the night in the same way, same day and destination if you wished.

I read the 100nm requirement to be distance from origin, but the 2 hours applies to the flight which can be there and back.
 
From here in OKC, to make this pair of flights worthwhile, what I typically do is have the pilot plan a flight down to RBD, which is on the south side of Dallas. It’s about 175 nm, which takes about 2 hours in lots of airplanes, especially with ATC rerouting. They will have to go through the Class B and get about a million ATC transmissions thrown at them in rapid succession, which many have never done. There is a restaurant on the field, so we eat dinner while it gets dark. If it’s in the summer, the tower will close before we leave too, so they get to operate at a towered field with the tower closed, also something they may not have done. Getting back also requires close work with ATC. So it’s a good learning experience for most people I’ve taken down there.
 
I’ve seen pilots that could not hold a heading or altitude, wandered all over the sky but eventually found the destination airport thanks to modern magenta line technology. Commercial, how is your ground speed compared to planned, what about your eta, fuel consumption.

They may have all the XC hours they need in the logbook, but can they really fly to standards?
Take that electronic navigator away, let’s do this old school, chart, pencil and mental TLAR math.
 
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