Drones: Waiting for the Disaster

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
The subject of drones interests me not just as a pilot, but as a citizen. What's so interesting? There are some things that take a disaster to cause any action.

Inaction on drones is creating a big safety issue that no one denies. Meanwhile, drones are expected to be a big sales item at Christmas.

What will it take to get some action? I'm guessing some deaths...perhaps an airliner, small or large. Otherwise, this topic just doesn't command the attention it needs to motivate real action.

Today there's an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal...about frequent "runaway" drones. This is a common event when the controlling device on the ground loses contact for a myriad of reasons: software crash, batteries run low, GPS signal lost, the list goes on.

One man reports he stopped flying hobby drones after three "runaways" resulted in uncontrolled flights and crashes. He wisely concluded that he was creating risks for people.

Several months ago, I encountered a "way too close" drone over the California desert. I notified ATC. Never heard anything back.

For now, we can assume that drone mid-air risks, many at low altitudes, will increase dramatically. Drones are so small, I really don't know what to say about "see and avoid". It's hard enough to see an avoid other aircraft.

For now, I guess we try to figure out where people fly them and stay the h*## away, if that's even possible.

None of us should be surprised when a plane goes down, large or small. I predict that's when the real changes will start...there will be congressional hearings, outpourings of sympathy, blaming various agencies, and then...hopefully...change for good.

Until then, if anyone has ideas, let's hear them. Otherwise, we wait for the inevitable.
 
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Don't hate me but I'm buying a Quadcopter this Christmas. I will keep it below 500ft msl at all times and always fly it line of site. I will not fly it near any airports or in any airspace that causes danger to real aircraft.
I'm a long time RC pilot and getting into Quadcopters.
 
The mass hysteria and fear of disaster is completely overblown. You can thank the media for this. Apparently inbetween race baiting, they needed something else to get people riled up over. So they talk about a 3lb plastic toy like it's a Predator circling over every unsuspecting neighborhood and knocking planes out of the sky.

I hate to break it to you, but model aircraft have been flying around for decades. And they have been flying away or crashing upon loss of control for decades as well. The only thing different now is the quantity and availability. It's become very easy for the average consumer. It used to take skill to construct, train, and fly. Now it takes an hour to charge the battery, plug it in, and you're up.

Educate yourself about what these things are, what they are not, and what the risk really is before you join the media's panic bandwagon. If you really thing this 3lb flying plastic toy is going to cause a pile of dead bodies, you need to change the channel.
 
Exactly. It ain't a big deal. The people that hurt their kids with drones are the same people who would have killed their kids with lawn darts a couple of decades ago.
And remember share the sky with all users or you won't have any sky to play in.:nono:
Pedals2Paddles said:
The mass hysteria and fear of disaster is completely overblown. You can thank the media for this. Apparently inbetween race baiting, they needed something else to get people riled up over. So they talk about a 3lb plastic toy like it's a Predator circling over every unsuspecting neighborhood and knocking planes out of the sky.

I hate to break it to you, but model aircraft have been flying around for decades. And they have been flying away or crashing upon loss of control for decades as well. The only thing different now is the quantity and availability. It's become very easy for the average consumer. It used to take skill to construct, train, and fly. Now it takes an hour to charge the battery, plug it in, and you're up.

Educate yourself about what these things are, what they are not, and what the risk really is before you join the media's panic bandwagon. If you really thing this 3lb flying plastic toy is going to cause a pile of dead bodies, you need to change the channel.
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can't wait to see the expression of the drone pilot caught busting a TFR :lol:

THE FOLLOWING OPERATIONS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED WITHIN THIS TFR: FLIGHT TRAINING, PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACHES, AEROBATIC FLIGHT, GLIDER OPERATIONS, PARACHUTE OPERATIONS, ULTRALIGHT, HANG GLIDING, BALLOON OPERATIONS, AGRICULTURE/CROP DUSTING, ANIMAL POPULATION CONTROL FLIGHT OPERATIONS, BANNER TOWING OPERATIONS, MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS, MODEL ROCKETRY AND UNMANNED AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS.
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Pedals2Paddles said:
The only thing different now is the quantity and availability. It's become very easy for the average consumer.
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And that's the rub, ain't it? For what it's worth, I've read a grand total of zero media stories about the potential danger of personal drones -- this is just my opinion. The average consumer does not need to be educated or passionate about the RC hobby and its risks/rewards to participate in it in with very sophisticated and capable equipment nowadays, nor do they need to be concerned about abiding by any "code of conduct" for the good of the hobby and its longevity. This combination, I think, presents a danger we haven't seen before. It is what it is. For example, I watched a pretty cool video of a dude with a drone circling the Seattle Space Needle. Pretty awesome stuff. However, how many sight seeing aircraft are constantly circling that same Space Needle on a sunny day in Seattle? A lot. For someone new to the world of "aviation," when you're controlling your toy comfortably from the ground, how much consideration are you really going to give to pilots and tourists and passengers in the sky who actually have some skin in the game if something goes wrong? Or even be aware of the potential danger? I feel like I'd be more interested in capturing some cool footage and seeing how many views/likes I can get on YouTube.

Bottom line: I think the technology is awesome and has amazing potential, but I don't think the concern over safety is irrational. I also am not convinced we're close to seeing some major air disaster. But in the same way I'm not looking forward to my first bird strike (which hopefully never happens), I'm hoping I don't need to be concerned in the same way over a drone strike (not the ISIS kind) because some guy on the ground wanted to race my plane down the runway or get a cool fly by shot ... which I would then be forced to ask him for a copy of and post on YouTube. :D
 
TFRs have always included model aircraft, model rockets, and UAVs. And people have been cited for violating them in the past. The problem is the general public consumer who buys the 3lb flying toy has never heard of a TFR and never will.

BTW, I'm not condoning free willy nilly flight anywhere and everywhere. There is risk. There is potential for harm. But the hysteria over it is not inline with the actual risk of actual harm. I'm totally in favor of common sense rules and restrictions. I am not in favor of knee jerk idiotic regulation trying to protect people from papercuts.

I take more risk driving my car to work in the morning every day than I do flying my drone.
 
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I would love to have a good unit with a good HD camera that would stream live to a tablet so I could use it on the farm.

The ability to release the thing and then just sit in the cab and look at the cattle, crops, water, fences, and other things would be the cat's meow imo. No more getting stuck or popping a tire, or scratching and beating the hell out of your truck.

I can learn to live with drones same as R/C planes. I plan to get one some day. :wink2:
 
Let me just nip all this in the bud for y'all real quick.

Worrying about some drone flying into flight paths, and an airplane crashing from one, etc etc is completely irrelevant, and doesn't have any level of concern for me.

You know what you should all be really worried about. Somebody mounting a gun on one of those and committing a murder in broad daylight. Then fly it out of there, and see you later. Good luck catching that guy. Or better yet, wait until someone straps enough Semtex to one and flies it into a school.

"What's going to really bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything."

Discussion done.
 
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Archammer said:
Let me just nip all this in the bud for y'all real quick.

Worrying about some drone flying into flight paths, and an airplane crashing from one, etc etc is completely irrelevant, and doesn't have any level of concern for me.

You know what you should all be really worried about. Somebody mounting a gun on one of those and committing a murder in broad daylight. Then fly it out of there, and see you later. Good luck catching that guy.

Discussion done.
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FPS Russia is way ahead of ya. :lol: He put a machine gun on one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNPJMk2fgJU
 
evapilotaz said:
I will keep it below 500ft msl at all times
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It sure sucks when the terrain is at 600.

Bob, you're being alarmist. A 3 lb quadcopter isn't going to kill you unless you overreact and spin close to the ground. It might dent your aircraft. Maybe.
 
txflyer said:
The ability to release the thing and then just sit in the cab and look at the cattle, crops, water, fences, and other things would be the cat's meow imo. No more getting stuck or popping a tire, or scratching and beating the hell out of your truck.
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That right there. That would be awesome! The Chevy/Ford truck commercials will need to adjust their commercial footage a bit of the American rancher tho... :D
 
There is an entire industry working on the agricultural aspects. Lots of people already use them for exactly what you're suggesting. Along the same lines, they're being used for search and rescue too. Oh, and for surveying fire scenes that have limited access by ground. Etc etc.
 
UAS can likely do a lot more than we imagine.....and a lot less.
As a full-time, active farmer, I have a hard time seeing how a UAS will be able to look under the bottom leaf of a soybean plant at canopy and tell me if there are any aphids there. Maybe UAS will use some other technology to tell me if I have aphids.
At the same time, flying my Champ off my farm strip, I have zero interest in running into one of those things when I'm at 250 feet on climbout. A bird will at least TRY to get out of the way.
Most of the people I've seen telling how much UAS will help agriculture are selling them, not using them.
And, according to the FAA, you can't use them now, anyway for commercial ag purposes. That means you can not (according to the FAA) use them to check your cow herd at present.
 
You're living in a state of "denial" if you think UAVs (drones) are not going to be a problem in the National Airspace System. Take a look (below) at the massive number of these machines being shipped with the fact that a majority of the people operating them will have no clue as to when and where they can operate them and you have a great big problem.

DJI, a Chinese-based maker of quadcopters that are especially popular for use in aerial photography and videography, is reportedly shipping close to 12,000 Phantom 2 UAVs a month."
http://www.xconomy.com/san-diego/20...pose-in-funding-a-flight-school-for-drones/2/
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Most of the people on this forum are aware of what it takes in the way of knowledge and training to operate safely in the NAS. To think that we should allow tens of thousands of individuals into the NAS without educating them and training them is problematic. And to think that 100 percent of these individuals would always operate below 400 ft. and line of sight is ridiculous. You're kidding yourself! (If you don't believe me, just check out the numerous YouTube videos posted online.)

Looking at the bright side of UAVs, as the article mentions, the potential beneficial uses for these machines is incredible and UAV flight training might become a potentially lucrative business in the near future. I've heard the FAA might release new UAV regulations sometime this month.
 
Flying airplanes above 400' is boring, flying drones above 400' is even more boring. Just that will keep them close enough to the ground not to bother most people. Maybe we should put NAS rights to popular vote GA or drones winner takes all, loser grounded forever. Throw a hissy fit like a two year old and Mama Sam going to take your airplane toy away.
 
There are some people that FPV them and then go past 400 feet, but that is not what the DJI Phantoms do. The video from 400 feet is boring. About 150 feet is where they are still visible and controllable and the pictures are fun. The other thing people keep forgetting is that it is not see and avoid with a UAS. Unless you are in a glider the UAS operator can hear a plane at least 5 miles away. There is also about 15 minute battery life that limits how far they are going. Would it make you less scared if the UAS was giving radio calls? I have avoided birds in the plane, not sure why I could not avoid a UAS.
 
Archammer said:
Let me just nip all this in the bud for y'all real quick.

Worrying about some drone flying into flight paths, and an airplane crashing from one, etc etc is completely irrelevant, and doesn't have any level of concern for me.

You know what you should all be really worried about. Somebody mounting a gun on one of those and committing a murder in broad daylight. Then fly it out of there, and see you later. Good luck catching that guy. Or better yet, wait until someone straps enough Semtex to one and flies it into a school.

"What's going to really bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything."

Discussion done.
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But anti-drone laws won't stop them from doing it, either.
 
As a card carrying libertarian(not really, but sounds good) I'm all for sharing. Equal utility demands equal risk. If I go to the trouble of getting a PPL, medical, BFR, charts, briefing, pre-flight, navigation, then I expect the same of my drone counterparts. If I'm expected to see and avoid per FARs, then the same rules need apply to the utility users of the NAS. If I make a mistake in the cockpit and kill myself, do property damage, I am financially liable. Same for drones.

Either regulate, or don't regulate but equal treatment under the law. If it's gonna be a free for all below 10k', then I can blow off the license, medical, BFR, briefing, navigation, and financial liability. Anarchy, liberty, or something in between just be fair to both.
 
So you think someone should spend thousands of dollars on a PPL to fly a 3lb plastic toy. Something that people have been flying without a PPL for decades. You have a problem with the definition of the word "equal" if you think there is anything equal about a 3lb flying plastic toy and a Cessna 172.
 
Kites with a camera mounted. Now what say you.
 
The first "incident" where an aircraft strikes a drone/multicopter likely won't be a disaster. It will probably cause about as much damage as a bird strike, and a large fuss will be made that may hasten or increase regulation.
 
Another close call the other day:

http://www.pahomepage.com/story/d/s...ith-medical-heli/39572/RWNIApb-VUSJ6xcikqVBVw

I flew about 50-75 past a Quadcopter a few months ago in a helicopter around 500 ft. I still keep checking Youtube to see if he got a vid of us.

I'm all about personal freedoms when it comes to RC aircraft. I'm an RC enthusiast myself. The problem is these things are becoming more and more popular and they're showing up everywhere. Years ago, for us low flying helicopters, you could anticipate where these guys would be. There are common RC fields located around the country and generally they either keep the aircraft below 400 ft or have a spotter. Nowadays, you have people operating without restraint and are intentionally getting in the way. I may fly my RC aircraft above 400 ft sometimes but I'm away from airports and have the common sense to get it down if I hear a low flying aircraft. You can be below a collision altitude in seconds.

I see these reports increasing just like green laser reports. A few idiots making a bad name for those of us that operate in a safe manner.
 
Each year hundred thousand people get shot. Guns are still legal and easy to get.
Or cars ...
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
The mass hysteria and fear of disaster is completely overblown. You can thank the media for this. Apparently inbetween race baiting, they needed something else to get people riled up over. So they talk about a 3lb plastic toy like it's a Predator circling over every unsuspecting neighborhood and knocking planes out of the sky.

I hate to break it to you, but model aircraft have been flying around for decades. And they have been flying away or crashing upon loss of control for decades as well. The only thing different now is the quantity and availability. It's become very easy for the average consumer. It used to take skill to construct, train, and fly. Now it takes an hour to charge the battery, plug it in, and you're up.

Educate yourself about what these things are, what they are not, and what the risk really is before you join the media's panic bandwagon. If you really thing this 3lb flying plastic toy is going to cause a pile of dead bodies, you need to change the channel.
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:yes:
 
Sure no problem..

Just a 3 lb toy hitting your plane traveling 125 - 175 mph what could possibly go wrong!

Here is a video of a motorcycle hitting a gopro camera that weighs only 6.7 ounces (according to the gopro website).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDTLRgWWeD4

Why don't you educate yourself.. I was able to anticipate the results of a drone hitting an airplane without listening to any media reports..

Pedals2Paddles said:
The mass hysteria and fear of disaster is completely overblown. You can thank the media for this. Apparently inbetween race baiting, they needed something else to get people riled up over. So they talk about a 3lb plastic toy like it's a Predator circling over every unsuspecting neighborhood and knocking planes out of the sky.

I hate to break it to you, but model aircraft have been flying around for decades. And they have been flying away or crashing upon loss of control for decades as well. The only thing different now is the quantity and availability. It's become very easy for the average consumer. It used to take skill to construct, train, and fly. Now it takes an hour to charge the battery, plug it in, and you're up.

Educate yourself about what these things are, what they are not, and what the risk really is before you join the media's panic bandwagon. If you really thing this 3lb flying plastic toy is going to cause a pile of dead bodies, you need to change the channel.
Click to expand...
 
Well then to make the skies safe for drones and houses safe for women and children we'll have to ban little airplanes.
 
And how do you plan to eliminate that risk if that's what your beef is. Other than completely banning their use, which is illegal and impractical. Reckless endangerment is already illegal by the way.
 
just imagine all the finger injuries that'll occur this year......due to drones. :eek:
 
Mine would completely destroy the tree, forget the ornaments. Definitely not an indoor toy.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
So you think someone should spend thousands of dollars on a PPL to fly a 3lb plastic toy. Something that people have been flying without a PPL for decades. You have a problem with the definition of the word "equal" if you think there is anything equal about a 3lb flying plastic toy and a Cessna 172.
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Look, I gave two options. Either equal risk, and equal responsibility, or less. You can remove some of the onerous regs for manned flight, or you can add regs for drones.

If I want to ride a 150cc motorbike on the freeway, along with 80,000Lb tractor trailers, I still gotta get some kind of license. Maybe something can be done with lesser requirements, ala the motorbike license vs the comm truck, but having me up there with literal skin in the game, and a 12YO kid on the ground with a future 15Lbs drone, is not equitable. Anarchy, or totalitarianism, or something in between, but treat every user the same.
 
So if we are to have a drone license do we need an ultralight license to be fair?
 
docmirror said:
Look, I gave two options. Either equal risk, and equal responsibility, or less. You can remove some of the onerous regs for manned flight, or you can add regs for drones.
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Your options are invalid because you're not talking equal anything else. The notion that a 3lb plastic toy should be treated exactly like a certified manned full size aircraft is absurd.
 
iflyatiger said:
Sure no problem..

Just a 3 lb toy hitting your plane traveling 125 - 175 mph what could possibly go wrong!

Here is a video of a motorcycle hitting a gopro camera that weighs only 6.7 ounces (according to the gopro website).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDTLRgWWeD4

Why don't you educate yourself.. I was able to anticipate the results of a drone hitting an airplane without listening to any media reports..
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Not saying you're wrong, I imagine a large quad-copter could do quite a bit of damage in the right place, but here is a video of a quite large model aircraft hovering (almost like a drone) and be smacked by a bi-plane doing a high-speed low approach. Biplane suffered minor damage, even after hitting it with a wing.

 
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My thinking is we should do away with some/most of the regs for what is now a PPL. I would encourage some small regs for users of drones in the NAS. At least a minimum of accountability. A bit more for UL, a greatly expanded LSA program that includes 4 seats, up to 200HP, remove the speed restrictions(stupid anyway), max weight up to 6000Lb, and limit daylight and VMC. Then the big step up to comm ops.

This will get everyone under the tent in the NAS. Or - like I said, move the other way, and just have anarchy in the skies. Either way works for me.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Your options are invalid because you're not talking equal anything else. The notion that a 3lb plastic toy should be treated exactly like a certified manned full size aircraft is absurd.
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It will be absurd until the 3Lb toys are now 15Lbs, at 2500' on the ILS to Kennedy, and brings down a Boeing. Same thing that happened to the TRSA after San Diego, and LA mid-air disasters. You gotta know they are getting bigger with each iteration. Do it - or don't do it, but pick a direction.
 
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