bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Dude. You need to wait until you have a little money. Aviation is expen$ive, and if you are thinking even free checkride-- you can't do this.....
DPE vs. FAA Inspector
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Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Kind of reminds me of an ad I saw in an airport in Panama City, FL not too long ago for a hospital advertising a website to go to in order to find out the wait time at the ER.
If the decision to go to the ER is based on how long you have to wait, I'm guessin' you don't really need to go to the EMERGENCY Room.
Ted
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On the other hand, aviation becomes way more affordable if you do pay attention to the details.
Says the guy who operates a 310 on a budget that most operate a Bonanza on.
kenjr
Line Up and Wait
$700 for a PP checkridePlease somebody tell me that can't be true.
I promise you that it is. He actually raised the price from $600 to $700 without even telling the owner of my school so she had a guy doing a checkride that she told $600 and he shows up the day of and the DPE is like, "That'll be $700..." and he freaks out. The school owner asked him when he'd changed it and he said 'last week'...and didn't bother to tell anyone and was going to charge the kid the extra $100 even though he changed his price after the guy was already booked.
From what I hear he's a grumpy old codger who has been flying for 40 years. He does about 7-8 rides a week from PPL on up. He also is the Citation guy around here so he does all those rides as well. I'm not sure how someone can be grumpy making $5-6k a week in cash to sit in the right seat and tell people to do a steep turn, but apparently they are out there.
I actually considered using him just because he lives in the same city and will come out to my home airport. But when I talked to him he was booked out a month so I slipped into a slot of another guy - had to fly 40 minutes north to meet him. He was $375.
One of the Partners in my plane is a retired airline captain with over 20k hours in all kinds of crazy stuff. He called the FSDO inquiring about becoming a DPE and they told him they had enough.
So, that's why it's a month to get a checkride around here? The government at work...
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SoloEqs
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The decision may be WHICH ER to go to. If I have to drive another 10 minutes to get to an ER which will get my kid seen 30 minutes sooner, guess what I'm going to do?
Likewise, someone who's being told to pay $700 for a DPE is perfectly justified in trying to get the FAA to do the checkride (or looking around for a cheaper DPE). It's not a matter of whether you can afford to pay it, it's whether you should pay more than you have to for the same thing.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
It the DPE is way beyond normal for pricing, that deserves a letter of complaint. The FSDO keeps copies of those; they pile up.
Our checkrides are about $400 locally.
Yes, it's important to not spend more than you need, but there will be plenty of things for which you need to spend not a penny less that necessary....
And you can shop the DPEs.
The OP said nothing about $700 rides.
Our checkrides are about $400 locally.
Yes, it's important to not spend more than you need, but there will be plenty of things for which you need to spend not a penny less that necessary....
And you can shop the DPEs.
The OP said nothing about $700 rides.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
If the guy's booked out for a month, then he's not charging an above-market-rate fee. Seriously, if he can fill his slots at $700, then more power to him.
That said, if there are too few DPEs in the area, then it might be worth it for some senior CFIs to try and get designations. More supply will pull prices down too.
SoloEqs
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The correlation is not as solid as you think. If there is shortage, prices go above market until the situation is resolved.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
If there's a shortage, then the market price rises until such time as more supply is added to the market, or demand falls. Regardless, it's still the market price.
Basically, a "fair market price" is a price at which the seller (DPE) and buyer (applicant) agree. Since nobody is required to use a particular DPE, whatever the pilot pays the DPE is, by definition, a market price.
It's not really a free market. More like an oligopoly.
denverpilot
Tied Down
No, but you can have more DPEs. More supply than demand, prices drop.
(Our DPEs around here are reasonable on price, but it does seem that anecdotally from posts here that there aren't enough DPEs in California. $700/ride does seem a bit much, if that's really the case out there.)
kenjr
Line Up and Wait
Did you even read the whole message? One of the partners in my plane, well qualified to be a DPE inquired about it and was told there were plenty even though everyone around here gets in line for at least 3-4 weeks to get a checkride for anything unless a cancellation comes up and someone can sneak them in.
My DPE failed me the first time (let me finish the oral portion) because he didn't like the way our A&P/IA signed off on the ELT inspection on our plane that was done about a month prior to my checkride. Even getting the A&P on the phone wasn't enough - nor was it enough for me to offer to pay an A&P on the field to perform an inspection while we did the oral. I had one done anyway (he already said he was going to fail me, which in hindsight after talking to the FSDO he shouldn't have done - discontinuance at the worst) and it took 15 minutes and $50.
As my CFI said, "If these guys would quit failing or handing out discontinuances for crap like that then people wouldn't have to wait a month to get back in line".
When we rescheduled mine it was exactly a month out with the same DPE and he's a 40 minute flight from me. I'm not a consipiracy theorist here and claiming that they are all failing people to double dip but in the end it ended up costing me another $275 for the re-do plus $100 more in gas for the 2nd trip and taking another day off to get my ride done because my DPE decided he was going to be judge and jury on how an A&P signs a logbook.
It's a racket - no two ways about it.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Then you have an issue with the FSDO for not designating enough DPEs, not with the DPEs for charging a market rate.
Here's the thing...rising prices will reduce demand, even with a fixed supply. If you have x slots that you can fill with applicants, then it is your job, as a DPE, to charge such an amount for each slot such that you can fill them while receiving the maximum revenue.
The issue is constriction of supply. That's the cause of both the backlogs and the rising prices. And the supply of DPEs is wholly under the authority of the local FSDO, not the DPEs.
My DPE charges $400 for a ride. I've taken three with him and passed all three. He isn't unreasonable and wants applicants to pass. He's a great CFI and teaches in the process. But he's also a jerk, he pounds his hands on the desk and goes "YOU MEAN TO TELL ME......?!?!". You just have to know him and take it how it is. He's a great guy, I've had plenty of laughs with him but he's there to make sure you're walking out of his office with a rating that you are SAFE with. I think most DPE's are the same way and maybe it takes more experience to realize that. He doesn't charge for re-tests, at least not flight portions, maybe if you have to redo the whole thing IDK. But if he did that's his call because it's his time. DPE's are around to give you an easy or free checkride, they're there to give you a CERTIFICATE to be a pilot. They don't owe you a darn thing.
ifconfig
Pre-takeoff checklist
I like the subtle reframe of the question, Henning and it's an answer to a question I didn't ask.
Just because I don't want to pay a DPE doesn't thereby mean or imply—does it? I certainly hope not—that I can't afford to fly enough. See the fallacy? Thanks!
ifconfig
Pre-takeoff checklist
This is the point of my question. Of course if, as some say, the FSDO will simply not do them for PP checkrides the question is moot. I didn't know that beforehand hence the question, sabee?
$700 for a checkride? Old man warning: Back in the late '90s out in south Florida, they were charging $250 and I felt even back then that it was too expensive. I should tack on that I'm a cheap bastard. :wink2:
I like the subtle reframe of the question, Henning and it's an answer to a question I didn't ask.
Just because I don't want to pay a DPE doesn't thereby mean or imply—does it? I certainly hope not—that I can't afford to fly enough. See the fallacy? Thanks!
I was going to post a similar response until I reread your original post:
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
This.Or maybe DPE's wouldn't have to fail people if applicants came more prepared?
Cheap pilots get cheap maintainence , fly to failure, and then complain that the mech is too much, the DPE is too much, that fuel is too much, "insurance is a racket I won't do it" and it goes on forever.
How many Cherokee operators replace their Vacuum pump every 500 hours? AI until it fails?
How many gripe like the student who complained that HE intended to do his long XC last Tuesday, but his CFI thought otherwise, and so it was a ripoff?
So where's the middle ground?
I get so tired of this cr_p.
Yes, some DPEs charge too much.
Some AMEs charge to much. So look at Virtual Flight Surgeons.
You don't have to go that particular DPE, now do you?
RotorAndWing
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Here's the problem, lots of people apply to be DPE's and in reality only about 10% are actually qualified and understand the job. More DPE's doesn't solve the problem only creates new ones.
RotorAndWing
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Yes. Again, once you complete training you should be able to go to the post office and fill out a one page form and be issued a pilot certificate.
How unfair those bastards are!
I like the subtle reframe of the question, Henning and it's an answer to a question I didn't ask.
Just because I don't want to pay a DPE doesn't thereby mean or imply—does it? I certainly hope not—that I can't afford to fly enough. See the fallacy? Thanks!
Hmmm, in your opening post you stated:
As with (too) many student pilots, I have no money.
Didn't say you didn't want to pay a DPE. When you say "I have no money" there is no fallacy I can see in not being able to fly enough. Is there some other way to read that statement?
Older man warning, my first 3 checkrides cost $100 each (PPSEL, PPMEL, & CPMEL) I got CPSEL&SES combined for $125 and IIRC my IR was $150, that was early 90s couple of years ago my MES ride was $400.
poadeleted20
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In that case, a complaint to the FSDO Manager is in order (and regional Flight Standards office if the FSDO doesn't take action) since the standard for appointing more DPE's is, IIRC, a two week wait for appointments.
Actually, you were failed for not knowing the sign-off was incorrect. See Area I, Task B, item 2c. The fact that you might be able to get the inspection done to make the airplane legal is relevant only to flying the plane home after the Notice of Disapproval was issued.
I see why this is a problem -- this CFI doesn't understand either the relevant regulations or the PTS. One can hardly blame the DPE for that.
RotorAndWing
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Not true. The appointment of DPE's actually takes several items into account, such as historical use (amount of checkrides given annually per DPE) as well as office staffing (number of Ops Inspectors).
poadeleted20
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Really? You're saying the wait time is not a factor? I'm pretty darn sure you're wrong. I don't think that's true. It may not be the sole factor, but it is most definitely a factor.
RotorAndWing
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I'm not. They look at historical data, number of DPE's in Region versus number of checkrides given. A DPE can give 2 checkrides a day, so they use a formula to account for XXX number of possible checkrides per year (accounting for weather, postpones, holidays, etc).
Another factor is staffing in the office as only Ops Inspectors may be assigned DPE's. Each Inspector has a work program which includes surveillance of each DPE and annual check ride. Assign too many DPE's to one Inspector and his complexity grade can put him in the next higher paygrade, which must be approved by Region. Region has a budget and staffing level per paygrade, so they will not put an Inspector into a higher paygrade on a whim.
Region makes the final approval of adding additional DPE's and they are selected by the National Board and their names are sent to the FSDO for interview and selection.
A district where there is heavy flight training will naturally have more DPE's (Orlando comes to mind). But also look at the Orlando office and the staffing is larger than some other FSDO's.
Another problem that comes up is when you have a DPE that gets a reputation and his applicants drop. As long as he does the minimum number of check rides he keeps his designation. However now the bulk of check rides switch over to the "popular" guy and now scheduling for him takes time. The FAA has little control over this as they have the correct number of Designees allowed by region.
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denverpilot
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If 90% of applicants don't meet the requirements, that's sad because they read the requirements and still applied. Or there's not enough info on the requirements. Shouldn't be rocket science.
RotorAndWing
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The FAA at one time had very strict requirements for obtaining an IA (Inspection Authorization) for an A&P. It was essentially an interview with the FSDO and an essay type test given by the FSDO, and if you passed you were given the IA. Pass rate was less than 50% but the quality of IA's were much higher.
Someone complained, the test was changed to a multiple choice type test and all an A&P has to do is go take the written and be issued the IA. The number of IA's exploded and then the problems started. Now you have a class of IA's that sell their signature and are approving major modifications without any real knowledge of what's required.
The FAA is still having regrets over than boondoggle.
poadeleted20
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"What do you mean we need more DPE's? Joe Hardnose is begging for work!"
Anyway, thanks for the complete and factual answer.
RotorAndWing
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It seems some people don't understand nuance. It's a well-known saying in aviation that no one had money to fly. "If God wanted man to fly He would have given him money."
Let's stop being so literal, can we? Ta.
ifconfig
Pre-takeoff checklist
Hmmm, in your opening post you stated:
Didn't say you didn't want to pay a DPE. When you say "I have no money" there is no fallacy I can see in not being able to fly enough. Is there some other way to read that statement?
Oh for God's sake. You rich bastards. Hahahaha! Take pity on us little people will ya?
ifconfig
Pre-takeoff checklist
Been flying for over 25 years and this is the first I've heard it.
Well you just may not be that well-read. Or something.
Ted
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Yes. Again, once you complete training you should be able to go to the post office and fill out a one page form and be issued a pilot certificate.
How unfair those bastards are!
Shortly after I got my private, a friend and I were going to fly down in the Archer to see a mutual friend.
So the mutual friend told my would-be passenger "It seems like Ted's doing really well. That correspondence course pilot training worked well." "What?" "Yeah, it involved spending a lot of time playing flight sim. He didn't even have to fly an airplane until he was done."
My friend actually believed it.
kenjr
Line Up and Wait
Or maybe DPE's wouldn't have to fail people if applicants came more prepared?
Come on Miranda - you have no idea. No one could show up for a PPL checkride more prepared than I was on that day. I've since talked to 2 people at the FSDO and 2 other DPE's including the lady who runs my school who is no longer active but was for 10 years who said there was 99 ways to make that ride right and 1 way to flush it. She said, and I agree, that stuff like this should be handled in a much better way that's accommodating for both the DPE and the applicant. Why not only waste both parties time but subject the applicant to a miserable first experience with the agency? The FSDO told me straight up (this guys POI actually) that there was no reason at all that I shouldn't have been able to get an inspection done while we did the oral. That kind of stuff happens more often than people think. Some DPE's handle it like normal human beings and others take the money, get 2 hours back and get to charge you again. That's how it works.
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kenjr
Line Up and Wait
I don't disagree with this one bit. I would have been dissapointed if it would have been 'easy'. It ended up being relatively 'easy' for me because I was very well prepared but I felt overall that it was tough but fair. The exception being the part I've mentioned in the previous post. I mean come on, we had the ELT listed as inspected as a part of the annual - the IA didn't write 91.205 on it. So, during the checkride I get the A&P and the IA on the phone who tell the guy straight up they did it and can fax him something ASAP to put in the logbook, etc... and the guy fails me? I mean come on - you are telling me that's the best solution to this? Fail a guy who is acing his oral and is ready to go fly over something that's not my fault and the right people are on the line to corroborate the work being done? Come on...I did my homework and saw the ELT was listed in the logbook and had it noted. Perhaps the FAA should have a PDF or something available for PPL candidates to show exactly what they need to provide to a DPE from an inspection perspective...maybe some examples of what those look like. Total BS.
Anyway, it's over...I just hit 100 hours and am having a blast. It is what it is...
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RotorAndWing
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Reality time.
The DPE can conduct the exam as he sees fit. You can conspiracy all you want, but in the end it's his call.
As far as the DPE goes, his designation is at the pleasure of the Administrator, which means it's not granted for life or without oversight. He has to insure all conditions are met to the satisfaction of himself as well as the Administrator.
Could he let something slide? Sure, but in the oddest ways that stuff comes back to bite you if not careful. Just like you going to his POI and complaining, he has to answer for that.
Welcome to life. That analogy can work for a multitude of professions.