DPE using cellphone during checkride?

[Old Geek]

Aviation is a surprisingly small community. Pick your battles with other participants very carefully.

Snip.

Very true.

OTOH, I made a discrete call to the FSDO about a DPE that I used and was unhappy about. Within a year he had lost both his DPE and DAR privileges. I'm sure it wasn't just me.

 

[RJM62]

Aviation is a surprisingly small community. Pick your battles with other participants very carefully.

Not to mention reporting him takes time and effort...how much of each do you want to spend on the DPE, now that you have your PP?

Precisely. So you call the FSDO, and the friendly bureaucrat takes your report and promises you that he'll take care of it, without telling you that the DPE in question happens to be his Thursday-night bowling buddy and the godfather of his second kid.

Save the reports for clear instances of safety violations, soliciting bribes, showing up drunk for the checkride, and that sort of thing. Using a cell phone, being a jerk about an open door, or farting in the cockpit just aren't worth the potential for making enemies in a very small community.

-Rich

 

[Old Geek]

Precisely. So you call the FSDO, and the friendly bureaucrat takes your report and promises you that he'll take care of it, without telling you that the DPE in question happens to be his Thursday-night bowling buddy and the godfather of his second kid.

Save the reports for clear instances of safety violations, soliciting bribes, showing up drunk for the checkride, and that sort of thing. Using a cell phone, being a jerk about an open door, or farting in the cockpit just aren't worth the potential for making enemies in a very small community.

-Rich

That may be the case. OTOH, the only two FAA inspectors that I've known personally seemed to genuinely care about the quality of service the FAA delivers.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think that DPE is not a professional nor would I ever use or recommend him

That said I don't think its worth involving a FSDO

The only reason I would involve a FSDO is if I, or a student, were incorrectly failed.

I think that's good thinking.

 

[EppyGA]

So, in this case, you want to report someone else for your violation of FCC and FAA regulations.

While acting as pilot-in-command, you permitted a passenger to use a cell phone that could transmit on the 800 MHz band in violation of FCC regulations. That's you, not the DPE.

While acting as PIC, you permitted a passenger to utilize portable electronic devices without authorization, and without ensuring that such devices would not have a deleterious impact on the aircraft's navigation systems, in violation of FAA regulations.

So, good luck with your report to the FSDO.

Crickets from the OP on these questions. :wink2:

 

[Henning]

Sell or post his phone number to as many spam list places you can find.

 

[TommyG]

You keep emphasizing that you paid him to do his job. What exactly does his job has to be. Do you expect him to sit there and stare at you. Monitor EVERY move you make every second of the flight. As a CFI there are PLENTY of times I just sit there and relax and let the student do the flying. I will tell him something needs to be corrected only when something needs to be. I don't constantly drill them with questions and make every second of the flight a textbook quiz opportunity. I let them fly, I like them to be relaxed; so I will have normal conversation with them, I want them to enjoy the experience, and guess what I have fiddled around with my phone, I have snapped some pictures along the way, and I was being paid to teach. Well letting the student fly without being badgered every second is part of my teaching process. The few DPE's I know are the same exact way. It seems you wanted a drill instructor for a DPE. And you probably did let that get to you which is why you missed those MORE IMPORTANT ITEMS on the checkride.

 

[MAKG1]

I think it's entirely reasonable to expect an instructor's or examiner's head to be in the game, all the time, even if saying nothing.

 

[comanchepilot]

Hi,

Yes I guess you could say I'm a bit of a brat, but at the same time I'm a fair person.

When I pay a professional hundreds of dollars to offer me a professional service, I expect it to be law abiding and be done correctly.

If this is something that is a big deal (thats why Im here to get opinions) I'll report him. Otherwise I will let it go. No biggie.

Then you should have had the balls to bring it up directly with the 'professional' you had a problem with. End of story. you didn't - you failed the ride and went away with your tail between your legs.

Yeah I'm busting your ass but you were PIC for the ride and if you saw something you did not like or agree with - speak up.

Was the examiner having health problems with a child or a spouse? Trying to stay in touch in case something urgent occurred? It happens. Who knows - you don't cause you never said a word.

Will you be doing the same thing one day? Perhaps using the cell connection on your iPad to get weather at 4500'? Forgetting to turn off your cell phone when you fly off?

 

[RogerT]

Use by a passenger of a cell phone (or any other portable electronic device) in flight without the PIC's approval is a violation of 14 CFR 91.21. You were the PIC, and the DPE was your passenger. Did you brief your passenger on those rules? Is it possible this was a test of your knowledge of the regulations and responsibility as PIC?

This was my first thought. Why is PIC allowing something illegal to go on.

RT

 

[Ghery]

It is, but the FAA still has a general rule on use of any portable electronic device including but not limited to cell phones -- 14 CFR 91.21. The most critical part of that rule for this situation is that the PIC must approve the use.

91.21 would only apply if they were operating under IFR. Not an issue under VFR.

That said, anyone climbing into the plane with me sees me turning my mobile phone off and is asked to do the same. I'm an EMC engineer by profession and I don't want to spend my time performing EMC tests when I could be flying. Mine gets turned off and tossed into my flight bag. Turn yours off, too.

 

[danhagan]

Use by a passenger of a cell phone (or any other portable electronic device) in flight without the PIC's approval is a violation of 14 CFR 91.21. You were the PIC, and the DPE was your passenger. Did you brief your passenger on those rules? Is it possible this was a test of your knowledge of the regulations and responsibility as PIC?

That was my thinking as well.

My DPE several years ago removed his seatbelt during taxi. I told him he could do that in cruise, but not during ground movement, takeoff or landing.

As for the OP and the emergency checklist. If you were at 500 AGL, you could've explained to the DPE that you wouldn't be head down in the cockpit running a checklist, you'd be eyes up looking for a suitable landing site and running a flow. You would've been let off the hook for that.

Didn't understand your stall scenario, if he wanted a 20* banked stall then do it ... if you recovered an incipient spin/wing drop with ailerons instead of rudder ... well, I understand him then.

 

[EdFred]

ScottM will probably chime in, but I'm pretty sure all the mobile phones are no longer "cellular" phones, and thereby not subject to the FCC ban on "cellular" phones in flight.

 

[poadeleted20]

ScottM will probably chime in, but I'm pretty sure all the mobile phones are no longer "cellular" phones, and thereby not subject to the FCC ban on "cellular" phones in flight.

I doubt the FCC Chief Counsel would agree with that argument, and that's who gets to interpret FCC regulations.

 

[EdFred]

I doubt the FCC Chief Counsel would agree with that argument, and that's who gets to interpret FCC regulations.

Only if Rebecca McPhereson is working there too. Unless it's been changed it was even more black and white than compensation and private pilots.

It would be the equivalent of busting someone for going 25 in a 45 when all other laws are being abided by.

 

[poadeleted20]

Only if Rebecca McPhereson is working there too. Unless it's been changed it was even more black and white than compensation and private pilots.

It would be the equivalent of busting someone for going 25 in a 45 when all other laws are being abided by.

Good luck, Ed -- but you really should ask an attorney with an FCC law practice about that before you let the FCC catch you doing it.

 

[EdFred]

I realize you're scared of everyone, Ron. I'm not.

 

[Palmpilot]

91.21 would only apply if they were operating under IFR. Not an issue under VFR...

That certainly does seem to be the way the regulation reads, and from the description, it sounds like it was a private pilot checkride. (It also seems unlikely to have been an aircraft that was being operated by the holder of an operating certificate.)

 

[RJM62]

I realize you're scared of everyone, Ron. I'm not.

I don't think Ron's scared. Maybe a bit anal at times, but mainly just a by-the-book kind of guy. If he hadn't chosen aviation, I suspect he would have made a good mashgiach.

For my part, I appreciate that because I'm kind of a push-the-envelope kind of guy. I admit to getting giggly over pushing the limits. I'm the kind of guy who gets all giddy and makes posts to car forums because I squeezed an extra MPG or two out of a tank of gas by making some obscure adjustment or replacing some part.

The problem is that to live on the edge without getting your gluteus maximus scorched, you have to know where the limits are; and the closer to the edge you want to play, the more precisely you need to know where the edge is. Ron's posts always make that clear.

As an aside, I got 39.11 MPG and 41.13 MPG on my two most recent fill-ups by replacing the stock PCV valve in my 2001 Saturn with a fixed-orifice PCV valve made for a Hummer. My average prior to the change was slightly under 38 MPG. Woo hoo! My hunch is that the non-standard PCV valve fools the PCM into leaning the mixture a bit. It also smoothed out the idle because you don't have that little valve pulsating.

-Rich

 

[JeffDG]

ScottM will probably chime in, but I'm pretty sure all the mobile phones are no longer "cellular" phones, and thereby not subject to the FCC ban on "cellular" phones in flight.

The FCC regs deal with the 800 MHz spectrum. Even though technology has expanded to other bands, just about every phone continues to use that band, and as you have no control over which frequencies are being used, you are likely to violate the rules if you are on in flight.

 

[Unregistered]

This was my first thought. Why is PIC allowing something illegal to go on.

RT

Thought this tread was dead! Guess not!

Anyways, I simply do not know anything about cellphone regulations in the cockpit. I see headsets with cellphone adapters, I've had instructors who occasionally text in the air and I have never been asked any questions about cellphone usage during my training or during the oral portion of the check ride. It's something that has never crossed my mind as being illegal.

I originally asked this question because I wanted to know if the DPE using his cell phone was against some DPE code. After all, he is being designated by the FAA to administer an examination and evaluate my performance as a pilot. But at this point the consensus around here is that I should let it go, which I have done.

 

[Unregistered]

Again, I'd like to emphasize the fact that the DPE shut me down once during pre-taxi for me telling him to close the door. I assumed he would shut me down again if I asked him to get off his cellphone, so I didn't bother with the guy. And he was not using the cellphone as some trick to nail me. He was on and off his cellphone during the oral portion and seemed to have a ton going on.

I understand that some of you guys think I should have put my foot down, but as a person who had never take a checkride (and never having dealt with anything like this ever in my life) I simply did not know what to do. I was never trained to intervene during a checkride and ask an examiner to stop using his cellphone during a business call. I was really nervous!

 

[poadeleted20]

Anyways, I simply do not know anything about cellphone regulations in the cockpit. I see headsets with cellphone adapters, I've had instructors who occasionally text in the air and I have never been asked any questions about cellphone usage during my training or during the oral portion of the check ride. It's something that has never crossed my mind as being illegal.

It's illegal by FCC rules in the air. It's otherwise up to the PIC. As for the cellphone adapters for headsets, those are very useful for using your cellphone to pick up an IFR clearance/release on the ground with the engine running.

I originally asked this question because I wanted to know if the DPE using his cell phone was against some DPE code.

It is. FAA Order 8900.2 says, "The examiner must give the applicant his/her undivided attention during the test".

After all, he is being designated by the FAA to administer an examination and evaluate my performance as a pilot.

Exactly why the FAA said what they did in 8900.2.

But at this point the consensus around here is that I should let it go, which I have done.

At this point, yes, that is probably best. But your instructor should be aware of this, and if this DPE keeps doing this, the FSDO should be informed of that unprofessional conduct which violates that FAA Order.

 

[poadeleted20]

Again, I'd like to emphasize the fact that the DPE shut me down once during pre-taxi for me telling him to close the door. I assumed he would shut me down again if I asked him to get off his cellphone, so I didn't bother with the guy. And he was not using the cellphone as some trick to nail me. He was on and off his cellphone during the oral portion and seemed to have a ton going on.

I understand that some of you guys think I should have put my foot down, but as a person who had never take a checkride (and never having dealt with anything like this ever in my life) I simply did not know what to do. I was never trained to intervene during a checkride and ask an examiner to stop using his cellphone during a business call. I was really nervous!

It's not up to you to "put [your] foot down" but the FSDO should nevertheless hear about this if this is typical of this DPE's conduct.

 

[denverpilot]

ScottM will probably chime in, but I'm pretty sure all the mobile phones are no longer "cellular" phones, and thereby not subject to the FCC ban on "cellular" phones in flight.

It's really about the frequency in use, since that's the way FCC wrote the law banning use in flight. If you can avoid the ban and guarantee your phone won't revert to that band, you're not breaking FCC law. They wrote it that way because if they had said "mobile phones" back when they wrote it, GTE and Airinc would have had a hissy fit.

So badly written law, and corruption/monopolies. Nothing new to see here, move along, move along.

 

[silver-eagle]

To say you can't use a phone in flight is technically correct.

Now, take a look at all the aviation headsets with Bluetooth interfaces for your phone, all the aviation related apps there are and so on. Do you think many people are following these rules? Has the FAA given any signal it intends to after private pilots for violating it?

In other words, effectively nobody cares.

Just because they enable a function does not immediately translate to you needing to use it. I have a garmin nuvi in my car that gets me a google search. I have bluetooth on my phone and gps. Some new cars have full internet access not to mention, TVs and DVDs.
And really, there is something to be said about curtousy. You shouldn't HAVE to need to use your cellphone every minute of the day. There are times and places where the thing belongs either off or silent.
As to the issue the OP had, just drop it. The cellphone was not a contributing factor to your failure unless he was looking for you to tell him to terminate the call. Since he did not list that as part of the failure, drop it.

 

[Unregistered]

Dpes are supposed to be professional. 8 hour oral plus three ppl checkride attempts later.. $15,000 FOR training plus another $1220 for dpe fees, I finally had my ppl.
I called the same FSDO and got a letter stating "this may warrant a futher investigation"...

 

[TommyG]

To be professional is perception. To some people a DPE showing up in a nice white shirt with pilot wings, but doesn't know know anything or know how to talk to someone properly would be professional because he looks professional. To some a guy showing up in shorts, sneaker and a t shirt, smoking a cigarette, but has a personality, extremely knowledgable is professional.

 

[Zeldman]

Dpes are supposed to be professional. 8 hour oral plus three ppl checkride attempts later.. $15,000 FOR training plus another $1220 for dpe fees, I finally had my ppl.
I called the same FSDO and got a letter stating "this may warrant a futher investigation"...[/QUOTE]


That may mean they wish to talk to you and ask questions. Be prepared. Write down time and length of calls during your checkride.

 

[CTLSi]

First off let me tell everyone that I failed my check ride under this particular DPE. I re-took another checkride with a different DPE from another FSDO. This was primarily because I moved to a different part of the state several weeks after. My cert was granted last year.

Synopsis:

During the flying part of my checkride, my examiner looked down at his iPhone probably 3-4 times (each maybe 5-10 sec at a time) while we were leaving the vicinity of the airport to go to a practice area to do maneuvers. I believe he was sending and receiving text messages. Shortly after this, someone called him and he picked up and told the person he was busy and hung up after about 20 sec.

Somebody called him again a few minutes later and this time he answered the phone, told the person to call back later (I think...He moved the mic away from his face so I couldn't hear much...). However, this time he seemed to be hung up on something with the person on the other end, and he ended up having a 1-2 minute chat with the person on the end.

At the end of the checkride I told the examiner that he came off as arrogant and I didn't like how he conducted the examination...However, I never directly told him that his cell phone usage made me uncomfortable. I was upset; maybe I shouldn't have said anything, but I knew I was not going to be testing with him again because of the move, so it didn't matter to me one way or the other.

A few days later I called my local FSDO and asked the first person who picked up (I have no idea who she is) if its alright for an examiner to use a cellphone mid examination, and she told me (verbatim) "this doesn't sound kosher." But she said that the person who handles DPE inquiries was out and I needed to leave a message or call back. I elected to call back, but the move got in the way and I never found time to call. Also, I passed the PP exam shortly after this, so the happiness from that really made me forget about the situation.

It has been several months since this incident, and I don't know what I should do. I don't really care, but at the same time I don't think it's "kosher" for an examiner (who's getting paid hundreds or dollars for his services!) to use any kind of electronic device during an exam.

Also, the examiner in question is known to be a bit of an eccentric guy. I feel like if I bring something like this up to the FSDO, it'll just create more trouble and I'll get sucked into some bureaucratic vortex...which is something I'd rather not deal with.

So what should I do? Report it? Let it go?

I do not want to do a re-test with the FAA.

Thanks

A DPE can do whatever he/she wants during your checkride. They have their own checklists for what they are looking for...

 

[ateamer]

A DPE can do whatever he/she wants during your checkride. They have their own checklists for what they are looking for...

And would those checklists happen to have a name, such as, oh, I don't know, maybe Practical Test Standards?

 

[CTLSi]

And would those checklists happen to have a name, such as, oh, I don't know, maybe Practical Test Standards?

The checklist is their track through the testing. The PTS is what they are required to adhere to and cover, but they are not required to test everything on the PTS.

They are 'asked' to take special note of the 'special emphasis' areas but again, they are not required to fully test those either.

How they conduct the ground and flying part are totally up to them, and what they do during the test is also up to them. In fact, they can even pretend to have a heart attack in order to assess your response to an emergency in flight.

So, the DPE mulling over calls or texting on a phone is not out of the ordinary. The only thing that matters is did the candidate complete those items tested to the satisfaction of the DPE.

It's the candidates attentiveness that matters as PIC, not the passenger DPE.

 

[davidm767]

I am on the fence about this one, I would have definitely been a little more vocal, but then again I wouldn't have reported unless his actions caused MY failure.

Lets start with Great DPE's. I had one as a mentor, senior pilot, and an Instructor. The guy was a fantastic gentlemen, prior military officer, engineer, and flying club legend. What he said went but he was usually right about 98% of the time (I liked to catch him once and awhile while I was working through my CFI's). He was a professional and kept it as such. Being a busy DPE he always fielded calls. Unlike the OP's DPE at least he would take a second to stop the examination if it was important, or at least tell them to call back at a predetermined hour, and he would ALWAYS turn off his cell phone once the engine started.

Now, being in the training business. I have seen a few good DPE's and a few awful DPE's. None of which I reported, but a few I have recommend to our Chief Instructor not to use (he schedules for most of the students). Here are some Jewels from my flight school this last year:

A DPE who would be CONSTANTLY 1-2 hours late, once or twice he would be 3-4 hours late Which would cause a severe ripple effect with the schools one and only complex.

The same DPE also fell asleep on a PPL XC. Seriously... asleep! The checkride took 3.5 hours, mostly because the student literally went all the way to his XC airport, upon power reduction the DPE woke up. I asked the student why he didn't wake the guy up, and the answer was that short of yelling or touching the guy, he wouldn't respond (unplugged earphone jack). Then he diverted the kid another 50 nm to another uncontrolled airport of his original plan. The student needed to grow a little more fuzz where it counted, but at least he passed.

One DPE consistently dropping the four to seven letter bomb, then flipped when the student didn't add enough rudder during the power on stall. (Although I admit I almost did the same on a student after a quarter turn uncoordinated incipient...especially after I got on them about rudder coordination)

Lastly, my favorite...A student who almost got in a fight with a DPE for mumbling smack under his breath...the student clearly deserved the subsequent investigation, but the DPE talking smack during the Oral is more than unprofessional.

 

[cirrusmx]

The fcc has a regulation that prohibits cell phone use during flight, IFR or not. Apparently a cell phone transmission while moving fast through different towers can cause all sorts of problems.

 

[Concorde]

Dpes are supposed to be professional. 8 hour oral plus three ppl checkride attempts later.. $15,000 FOR training plus another $1220 for dpe fees, I finally had my ppl.
I called the same FSDO and got a letter stating "this may warrant a futher investigation"...

Congratulations on your PPL !

 

[Jaybird180]

The fcc has a regulation that prohibits cell phone use during flight, IFR or not. Apparently a cell phone transmission while moving fast through different towers can cause all sorts of problems.

Covered ad nauseum. Modern phones do not meet the definition and therefore not subject to the ban.

 

[CTLSi]

The fcc has a regulation that prohibits cell phone use during flight, IFR or not. Apparently a cell phone transmission while moving fast through different towers can cause all sorts of problems.

What reg is that? There is a restriction for cell phones on a commercial flight. Don't know of one for GA.

 

[bluerooster]

I do believe that were I in that situation. I'd have headed back to the airport, and explained to him, once on the ground, that you are ending this checkride, due to his being distracted by his cellphone....

 

[JimNtexas]

I doubt the FCC Chief Counsel would agree with that argument, and that's who gets to interpret FCC regulations.

The FCC has a lot bigger fish to fry than worrying about someone using a cell phone in a Cessna.

Nobody at the FCC, least of all the FCC counsel, gives a flying flip about cell phones in Cessnas.

 

[denverpilot]

The FCC has a lot bigger fish to fry than worrying about someone using a cell phone in a Cessna.



Nobody at the FCC, least of all the FCC counsel, gives a flying flip about cell phones in Cessnas.

FCC specifically asked FAA to lift the ban, if you recall.

It's always fun when the kiddies argue while they're out driving around with our credit card.