Double Gear Up within 10 years

Tantalum said:
People are idiots. How do you "gear up" a plane? do people also forget to put their shoes on when they leave the house??
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3 near gear up experiences I have had. 1 In the Navajo, 1 in the Cessna 414 and 1 in the Cessna 210.

The 1 in the Navajo was due to the nose gear not coming down. The one in the 414 due to the power wire that runs the pump motor broke leaving the gear half way down. Or halfway up. The 210 was due to the circuit breaker was popped. Maintenance never found out why. After the second time I pushed it back in it stayed in.

Plus a number of experiences in the Navajo landing with one gear down and locked light not illuminated. Those were due to dirty/corroded micro switches. After landing a visual inspection showed the ''J'' locks in place. Happens when using dirt/muddy runways in AK.
 
smv said:
I am familiar with BCGUMPS. What are the P & F?
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The P and the F are for 'pump' and 'flaps'. When I did my instrument course the instructor had me do the PFGUMPS 3 Mi before the faf.. it was a standard Piper Archer but that was his thing..

Of course, in the back of my head, there's a slight concern that I've gotten so I used to just saying "gear down and welded" that I might just repeat that automatically without actually checking the gear.. let's hope that I never become the idiot that I decreid up thread
 
schmookeeg said:
Don't you fly a fixed gear? Strange shade to throw if so
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I do.. that's changing currently though as I'll be doing my multi-engine.. hopefully I'm not jinxing myself but it just seems like we learn so much other finite details that something as straightforward as putting the gear down should be painfully obvious.. but to that point, people also run out of gas and have controlled flight into terrain.. but the handful of complex hours I have, the plane sounds and feels very different with the gear down so it would seem very obvious to me to eventually realize that something is not right

honestly one of my biggest fears that keeps me in line is ending up on this forum one day as having done some bone-headed mistake.. especially in a Cirrus!
 
Zeldman said:
3 near gear up experiences I have had. 1 In the Navajo, 1 in the Cessna 414 and 1 in the Cessna 210.

The 1 in the Navajo was due to the nose gear not coming down. The one in the 414 due to the power wire that runs the pump motor broke leaving the gear half way down. Or halfway up. The 210 was due to the circuit breaker was popped. Maintenance never found out why. After the second time I pushed it back in it stayed in.

Plus a number of experiences in the Navajo landing with one gear down and locked light not illuminated. Those were due to dirty/corroded micro switches. After landing a visual inspection showed the ''J'' locks in place. Happens when using dirt/muddy runways in AK.
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You've got a proper catalog of war stories!
 
MuseChaser said:
I know LCGUMPS....now I'm wondering about PF and BC.....?
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images
 
Box. Chocolates. Gas. Undercarriage. Mixture. Propellor. Seatbelts?
Or..

Please, Forrest....etc.as above?
 
Jesus H Christ... Upon further review, we have a 3rd gear up that has been discovered with vague entries. This would be 3 in 18 years. Think that’s about all I can stomach. Unless the community can convince me otherwise, I think that’s just about the worst I’ve seen yet.
 
Tantalum said:
I do.. that's changing currently though as I'll be doing my multi-engine.. hopefully I'm not jinxing myself but it just seems like we learn so much other finite details that something as straightforward as putting the gear down should be painfully obvious.. but to that point, people also run out of gas and have controlled flight into terrain.. but the handful of complex hours I have, the plane sounds and feels very different with the gear down so it would seem very obvious to me to eventually realize that something is not right

honestly one of my biggest fears that keeps me in line is ending up on this forum one day as having done some bone-headed mistake.. especially in a Cirrus!
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Regardless if a Mirage or an R22, I confirm Gear Down at least four times every approach, if able. Initial down, downwind, base, and short final. Granted, I will never have an "Initial" in an R22 and often times no downwind or base in everything else, but my short‐final mantra "Gear down and locked, heels on the floor, cleared to land (even at "uncontrolled" air fields or off-airport locations)" will hopefully be the final sanity check each and every time and prevent me from becoming one of those idiots.
 
JimLahey said:
Jesus H Christ... Upon further review, we have a 3rd gear up that has been discovered with vague entries. This would be 3 in 18 years. Think that’s about all I can stomach. Unless the community can convince me otherwise, I think that’s just about the worst I’ve seen yet.
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Sounds bad. BUT If the hull is sound, if your mechanic gives it (and all the repairs) a good bill of health, and the gear ups were pilot errors and nothing inherent with the plane, put a business hat on and go for a larger discount.
 
WDD said:
Sounds bad. BUT If the hull is sound, if your mechanic gives it (and all the repairs) a good bill of health, and the gear ups were pilot errors and nothing inherent with the plane, put a business hat on and go for a larger discount.
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Id respectfully disagree. Regardless of the prebuy from here out, I’d never be able to stop wondering “what else didn’t they tell me about, that I didn’t find because the gear issues were the focus?”

One sloppy or questionable log entry for a major incident, with acceptable repairs and many hours under its belt, ok fine. This aircraft is starting to sound like an endless mess. Remember, he had to force the second gear up out of them...now we have a third. At some point the value of negotiating is outweighed by the possibility of worse lurking and the lack of piece of mind that it’s not going to break, cost me a fortune in repairs and downtime, or both.
 
MuseChaser said:
I know LCGUMPS....now I'm wondering about PF and BC.....?
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With me it depends on the aircraft. Whether it is a complex, has a boost pump, or if the POH demands Carb Heat. Regardless the aircraft, however, U is always Undercarriage.

For example, in a 'simple' 172:

Belts - Fastened
Carb Heat - On below the green arc
Gas - On Both
Undercarriage - Down and bolted.
Mixture - Rich (or set for DA)
Power - as needed, initially 1500 RPM
Switches - Confirm all switches are set as applicable.

Whereas for an M20J:

Boost pump - On
Check for traffic
Gas - On fullest tank
Undercarriage - Down and locked. Two green.
Mixture - Rich (or set for DA)
Prop - Full forward once off the govenor
Seatbelts and Switches
 
The 172 I just bought into had a bad flip over accident 20 years ago. The rebuild paperwork has been lost to time and the log entry is a one sentence “Replaced Wings. A/C okay”.... Talked to the mechanic who fixed the aircraft and got the low down on everything replaced or fixed.

So I had another IA look over the wings, tail, and check the installation. Once he was happy he corrected the logs and I was happy.
 
Omalley1537 said:
Id respectfully disagree.
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You have reasonable points. Buying a used plane, house, car -it’s all about managing the odds and getting them to a place you can live with it. (Metaphorically and literally).
 
I have to admit, when I see sketchy log entries I start looking elsewhere. If damage and repairs haven't been logged properly there could be some real gremlins. Find another, lots of airplanes out there.
 
smv said:
Regardless if a Mirage or an R22, I confirm Gear Down at least four times every approach, if able. Initial down, downwind, base, and short final. Granted, I will never have an "Initial" in an R22 and often times no downwind or base in everything else, but my short‐final mantra "Gear down and locked, heels on the floor, cleared to land (even at "uncontrolled" air fields or off-airport locations)" will hopefully be the final sanity check each and every time and prevent me from becoming one of those idiots.
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There's a tremendous change in drag and noise.. I'd also hope that if, at the very very least and latest, you would notice the plane seems "too slippery" somewhere on final, or at the very least in flare. To be able to take it all the way to the pavement just makes me think that the PIC is horribly out of touch with his (or her) plane.
 
Tantalum said:
There's a tremendous change in drag and noise.. I'd also hope that if, at the very very least and latest, you would notice the plane seems "too slippery" somewhere on final, or at the very least in flare. To be able to take it all the way to the pavement just makes me think that the PIC is horribly out of touch with his (or her) plane.
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Yup... I use the four-point process because it is common for me to go back and forth between a Warrior II and a Beech Sierra multiple times in one day. Previously it was going between a 150 or 172 and an M20J. Always gotta keep at the forefront which bird I am flying at the moment..
 
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Tantalum said:
There's a tremendous change in drag and noise.. I'd also hope that if, at the very very least and latest, you would notice the plane seems "too slippery" somewhere on final, or at the very least in flare. To be able to take it all the way to the pavement just makes me think that the PIC is horribly out of touch with his (or her) plane.
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I might have thought so too, but one day I made this fundamental mistake (not once, but multiple times). Never underestimate your ability to brain cramp.

I was starting the C-172C. I'd get it to start (with some difficulty) by going full throttle and mixture off (flooded procedure) and then it would die when I pulled the throttle and pushed in the mixture. Happened 3 or 4 times. Then I realized I was reversing the controls: full rich mixture and closed throttle to start then pulling the mixture and opening the throttle which killed it every time (go figure!). Once I figured out what I was doing wrong, I stopped and sat in the cockpit for a few minutes to collect myself and see if I was really ready to go fly. I decided I was, and the rest of the flight went without a hitch, thankfully.

If I can screw that up, I can leave the gear up. Particularly if distracted by something causing task saturation.
 
WDD said:
Sounds bad. BUT If the hull is sound, if your mechanic gives it (and all the repairs) a good bill of health, and the gear ups were pilot errors and nothing inherent with the plane, put a business hat on and go for a larger discount.
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Two things to consider:

1. You might have to sell that plane unless it's your "forever" plane
2. If a mechanic does a TON of work repairing a gear up landing and won't spend 10 minutes on the logs, don't bother ....
 
jsstevens said:
If I can screw that up, I can leave the gear up. Particularly if distracted by something causing task saturation.
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and being aware of that is part of the importance..

and that's why there's a multi point scan that should happen. It's not just the gear switch, but it's the green light(s), the noise, handling, position handle. You don't start the engine strictly by moving levers, you hear it, you listen, you look at other gauges, etc.

Mistakes happen, but forgetting to put the gear down just sounds like forgetting to put the flaps down, etc.
 
Tantalum said:
and being aware of that is part of the importance..

and that's why there's a multi point scan that should happen. It's not just the gear switch, but it's the green light(s), the noise, handling, position handle. You don't start the engine strictly by moving levers, you hear it, you listen, you look at other gauges, etc.

Mistakes happen, but forgetting to put the gear down just sounds like forgetting to put the flaps down, etc.
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And the CFI who did my Private and started my complex and IR had this version of GUMPS: G - Gear Down, U - Undercarriage Down, M - Make sure the gear's down, P - Put the gear down, S - Sure the gear's down?

And my complex endorsement training included 3 separate checks of gear (lever and lights) on downwind, base, and short final. I'm just saying that anybody is capable of a brain cramp (even multiples). Checklist every time! I've never (in some 300 hours, so not that much) bent an airplane. But I could. And I'm reasonably confident you could too.
 
Tantalum said:
There's a tremendous change in drag and noise.. I'd also hope that if, at the very very least and latest, you would notice the plane seems "too slippery" somewhere on final, or at the very least in flare. To be able to take it all the way to the pavement just makes me think that the PIC is horribly out of touch with his (or her) plane.
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Try doing several training flights in a row where you are performing slow maneuvers/practice landings with the the gear horn blaring at you constantly. I got down to short final without the gear in just that scenario without really "hearing" the gear horn. It didn't feel right, and I noticed the gear wasn't down. Rather than trying to rush to get it down I just executed a go-around. On the subsequent landing I made sure that I actually executed the items on the checklist rather than just reciting them. It is easy to get desensitized to things if you are not careful. Having an invincible "how could it happen" attitude is a dangerous approach to take in aviation.
 
jsstevens said:
And the CFI who did my Private and started my complex and IR had this version of GUMPS: G - Gear Down, U - Undercarriage Down, M - Make sure the gear's down, P - Put the gear down, S - Sure the gear's down?

And my complex endorsement training included 3 separate checks of gear (lever and lights) on downwind, base, and short final. I'm just saying that anybody is capable of a brain cramp (even multiples). Checklist every time! I've never (in some 300 hours, so not that much) bent an airplane. But I could. And I'm reasonably confident you could too.
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Do not neglect the BC:

B - Be sure to put the gear down
C - Cannot forget to put the gear down
 
smv said:
Do not neglect the BC:

B - Be sure to put the gear down
C - Cannot forget to put the gear down
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To be fair, he was old school. None of this new fangled extra GUMPS. But important none-the-less.
 
smv said:
B - Be sure to put the gear down
C - Cannot forget to put the gear down
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Ha yep.

GUMPS check =

G - Gear down?
U - Undercarriage down?
M - Make sure the gear is down!
P - Please for God's sake... is the gear down?
S - Sure that gear is down??
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
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Just a little adjustment required.

Gotta remember the BC:

B - Be sure the gear and rudders are up
C - Cannot forget to check if the gear and rudders are up
G - Gear and rudders up
U - Undercarriage up
M - Make sure the gear and rudders are up
P - Put the gear and rudders up
S - Sure the gear and rudders are up?

:D
 
cmsuav8r said:
It didn't feel right, and I noticed the gear wasn't down
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..and that's my point, you have to really miss a lot of various hard and soft checks. Checklist, alarms, all that aside the plane does handle, sound, and feel different. To your point, it "didn't feel right" and that's when you noticed the gear

In IR training there were several times I'd forget the flaps when going missed.. but I'd eventually catch it within a minute or two since the plane just wasn't feeling right

cmsuav8r said:
Having an invincible
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This is not really the same as plowing into a night IFR flight with reports of icing and scattered storm activity, etc because you think you're the best pilot on earth. It's more like "holy crap, how can you miss that?!" -and- in the case of the OP this person did it TWO times

cmsuav8r said:
how could it happen
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I am curious how people make, what frankly are, stupid mistakes, not just relegated to gear but running out of gas, leaving control locks in place, hand propping a plane without another person or a plane tied/chocked down (and having the plane zoom away into a hangar), etc

There are some genuinely dumb things that people do with flying and its fair to call that out. Their accidents make aviation more expensive and complicated for everyone else
 
Skip the *%&*$*%& acronyms, here's your "make sure the landing gear is down procedure:"

Lower gear where you would normally lower it (FAF, midpoint downwind, etc...)
Gear down/gear light- verbalize it's down.
1st flap setting - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
2nd flap setting - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
3rd flap setting (if you have 3) - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
4th flap setting (if you have 4) - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
Short final - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
Over numbers - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.

If you can't get the gear down after at least 5 checks, and up to 7 checks, maybe you should change hobbies. Maybe Legos are more your speed.

Mixture, fuel pump, cowl flaps, all the other crap is secondary and isn't going to result in an engine overhaul, belly skins, wing skins, flaps, etc...
Don't ignore them, but the world will not end if you don't go into "**** off the neighborhood by putting the prop at max RPM at the FAF or downwind" mode.
 
EdFred said:
If you can't get the gear down after at least 5 checks, and up to 7 checks, maybe you should change hobbies. Maybe Legos are more your speed.
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Yes!!

EdFred said:
Lower gear where you would normally lower it (FAF, midpoint downwind, etc...)
Gear down/gear light- verbalize it's down.
1st flap setting - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
2nd flap setting - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
3rd flap setting (if you have 3) - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
4th flap setting (if you have 4) - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
Short final - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
Over numbers - check gear light/down - verbalize it's down.
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that's fairly extensive, you can probably abbreviate it by turning it into a nice acronym :D:D
 
EdFred said:
No. It doesn't. And it obviously doesn't help.
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Hmmm. It helps me every time.

Ok how about:

GGGGGGGGG

gear gear gear gear gear gear gear.

you just repeat gear the whole way from cruise until parking.
 
I can't believe I'm saying this. I'm with Ed on this one. Sometimes GUMPS is too long when you have a lot of other stuff going on, whether its instructors talking or ATC or you're busy or pax... GUMPS takes a lot of effort and it's easily forgotten because a lot of the stuff you do in GUMPS is unnecessary to be doing in the pattern. Gear flaps gear it's quick and easy and can be accomplished ALL of the time.
 
Seems like a few folks around here do not think that properly setting the mixture is an important factor in being able to go around, if necessary.
 
Tantalum said:
The P and the F are for 'pump' and 'flaps'. When I did my instrument course the instructor had me do the PFGUMPS 3 Mi before the faf.. it was a standard Piper Archer but that was his thing..

Of course, in the back of my head, there's a slight concern that I've gotten so I used to just saying "gear down and welded" that I might just repeat that automatically without actually checking the gear.. let's hope that I never become the idiot that I decreid up thread
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I teach to do something besides just say Gear Down and Welded, but most of my current instruction is in High Wing Airplanes. I usually just look out the window and visually confirm there is a wheel there. Seemed a bit silly until after flying around a 1000 hours in 172's I got to fly a 172RG a couple months ago, Suddenly look for the wheel doesn't seem silly at all, especially when the 172RG is almost indentical to a couple 172's I teach in.

Anyone have any good tips for something similar is low wing airplanes for training youself for that time you move from a Cherokee to an Arrow?

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
smv said:
Seems like a few folks around here do not think that properly setting the mixture is an important factor in being able to go around, if necessary.
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Its already been set.
 
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