Don't buy those G5's

Unit74 said:
Now you are talking trash just to talk trash. Your comments are rather jaded.....And transparent. You don't happen to drink tea with your pinky sticking out, do you? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I actually agree with Tom 100%. He’s not talking absolutes here on which AP is the best fit and I think associating each AP with a plane value may be slightly off but mostly correct.

For example I used to own a PA28-180 that would fall right there in line with the $30k plane mentioned. It had an ancient wing leveler that I’m convinced was actually programmed to teach people barrel rolls. So essentially zero AP. As basic of a panel as you could get. Narco radio with CDI / glide slope

The Trutrack would have been an awesome addition to this plane. It’s not really a traveling plane but that AP would be viewed by the vast majority of pilots as a high end upgrade for a plane with those capabilities.

Currently I own a Saratoga that’s not far from the $150k plane that is the other example. I’ve got dual G5’s and an IFD 550. Currently good functioning century 41 AP with auto trim. The G5’s provide gpss to the AP and it’s a beautiful thing.

If my Century 41 went Tango Uniform would you suggest that the Trutrack or the GFC 500 would be a more appropriate replacement, all things considered?

Maybe the thing that struck a nerve with you was applying these AP’s based on plane $ value rather than capability and expected use. However, considering those factors often have a direct relationship I still see his points as very valid for the majority of pilots.

Nothing against the Trutrack. It’s got its place and from what I understand fills a niche that needed filling.
 
Depends on what you want to do with the AP. Spending almost $3k more for no more functionality is dumb. Insinuating a $250k must have a $20k AP or it’s worthless is just plain ignorant. It’s about on par with trying to say a Rolex can tell time better than a Timex. But I guess on the ramp you can tell your buds all about how much you spent which equals swagger I guess.

Cost is proportional to functionality. Paying a higher cost for the same service defies logic. But a fool and his money are soon parted as they say. Is a three servo GFC500 better than a TT? You bet. Not considering the G5 or E5 arguement, Is a two servo GFC better than a two servo Trutrak? Not really.
 
Unit74 said:
Depends on what you want to do with the AP. Spending almost $3k more for no more functionality is dumb. Insinuating a $250k must have a $20k AP or it’s worthless is just plain ignorant.
, Is a two servo GFC better than a two servo Trutrak? Not really.
Click to expand...

Yes, really, I articulated some of the functionality benefits in an earlier post.
The only ignorance is in your posts. I mention the GFC 600 as desirable because of it’s additional functionality would be desirable in many $250K planes, especially the more robust servos and no dependence on G5s.
 
teejayevans said:
Yes, really, I articulated some of the functionality benefits in an earlier post.
The only ignorance is in your posts. I mention the GFC 600 as desirable because of it’s additional functionality would be desirable in many $250K planes, especially the more robust servos and no dependence on G5s.
Click to expand...


You are absolute right..... in fact, I now agree with you that we should in fact, dump all these petty systems that are children’s toys really, and I won’t even look at anything unless it has a Honeywell Primus or better because it does so much more. I now think discussion about any airplane sub-$10 mil should be discontinued as those guys are just out of touch, and bottoms dwellers for that matter.
 
Indiana_Pilot said:
I wish the G5 would drive my old Century 1 Auto Pilot..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Why doesn’t it work with the track function? Seems like roll steering would be the same as with other legacy analog autopilots. If to the right of the heading bug/gps line, energize the one side, left energize the other side. According to the docs, it can follow VOR/LOC outputs, although mine is not wired up for that apparently.

I’m asking the same questions with my Cardinal. The AI is getting sluggish, and I would rather spend repair money toward a G5, but I also need an IFR GPS/NAV/COMM. Thinking of going GNS650 and two G5’s, which is painful enough to the wallet without buying a new autopilot. It would be nice if the C1 could at least follow the heading.
 
Last edited:
Landing Fees said:
I have never flown a plane with an Aspen but I already hate the entire company because of this thread.
Click to expand...
Well, I have flown a couple, about 50 or 70 hours. Both Aspens were not reliable enough for my taste. {Or, let me rephrase: the are reliable, but their failure mode is abysmal.}

Problem is, Aspen just looooves going totally belly up at a drop of a hat. If anything is not up to snuff, or anything happens to GPS reception, Aspen displays a BIG RED X and that's it. In one airplane, it was easy to cause by giving it too much rudder (although that Aspen recovered in 30 seconds once coordinated flight resumed). In other airplane, it didn't work on the ground, because apparently GPS speed wasn't within parameters. So I had to take off with Aspen in RED X and hope it comes back alive in the air.

So what happens is that Aspen's main program checks data it receives from the AHARS for sanity, and raises a flag when something is out of whack: too much slip reported, GPS velocity vector is too much away from integrated speed from gyros and accelerometers. I commend them for doing that instead of trusting bogus data blindly.

But their reaction to the failure of these checks is just absurd -- why can't that junk display the godd**n airspeed and altitude?! That's all I need! I don't have experience with G5, so maybe it's worse than Aspen, but for sure I'm not installing Aspen in my airplane.

P.S. Aspen also goes into RED X if it loses GPS signal for extended periods. Fly through a GPS jamming excercise and you lose everything (ASI, AI, even compass!).

P.P.S. In one of the aforementioned airplanes the ball was removed and only the little bar under the compass on top of Aspen was used. Well, I don't think I'm going to spin in from a standard rate turn just because Aspen goes RED X on me, but jeez.
 
Last edited:
MooneyDriver78 said:
Yes, like Aspen claims easy installation...it’s not, you have to pull headliner to install antenna/oat sensor to give you backup GPS. On my plane that requires entire interior to be pulled. Not that it helps, Aspen infamous red X failure if something goes amiss.
Upgrade path doesn’t include a screen designed in this century.
Click to expand...
Doesn't your entire interior get pulled once a year anyway?
 
C177B Flyer said:
Why doesn’t it work with the track function? Seems like roll steering would be the same as with other legacy analog autopilots.
Click to expand...

An attitude-based autopilot uses a compatible attitude indicator to tell the autopilot what attitude it's in... And the G5 doesn't do that. At least, not yet - I've heard that they'll release something around Sun-n-Fun enabling this.

I’m asking the same questions with my Cardinal. The AI is getting sluggish, and I would rather spend repair money toward a G5, but I also need an IFR GPS/NAV/COMM. Thinking of going GNS650 and two G5’s, which is painful enough to the wallet without buying a new autopilot. It would be nice if the C1 could at least follow the heading.
Click to expand...

Do you also have a Century I, or something else?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
An attitude-based autopilot uses a compatible attitude indicator to tell the autopilot what attitude it's in... And the G5 doesn't do that. At least, not yet - I've heard that they'll release something around Sun-n-Fun enabling this.



Do you also have a Century I, or something else?
Click to expand...

Yes, it’s a Century I. Just seems odd that we have a ‘Track’ control that doesn’t track something, and according to Century “VOR/LOC radio signal tracking is standard.“ on the C1. How does it follow a VOR or localizer, and why is that different from any other left/right/+/- system? Is it technically able to steer but was never approved?
 
C177B Flyer said:
Yes, it’s a Century I. Just seems odd that we have a ‘Track’ control that doesn’t track something, and according to Century “VOR/LOC radio signal tracking is standard.“ on the C1. How does it follow a VOR or localizer, and why is that different from any other left/right/+/- system? Is it technically able to steer but was never approved?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you're asking, but the reason that it doesn't work is that it isn't just using the VOR or Localizer - It has to have a connection to the attitude indicator so it knows what wings level is first, and then the nav signal is a secondary input. Without the attitude input, it wouldn't know when to stop turning and would probably roll you upside down if you got off course. :hairraise:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'm not sure what you're asking, but the reason that it doesn't work is that it isn't just using the VOR or Localizer - It has to have a connection to the attitude indicator so it knows what wings level is first, and then the nav signal is a secondary input. Without the attitude input, it wouldn't know when to stop turning and would probably roll you upside down if you got off course. :hairraise:
Click to expand...

Curious. It doesn’t seem to have any connection to an AI on the wiring diagram. The wings level function appears to be solely internal to the device’s turn coordinator function. Century’s page on it states that a vacuum failure will not affect the operation of it, so I don’t think there is any tie to the AI. The only external input option seems to be radio left and right. “150 millivolts full scale + left and +right”. Perhaps that isn’t standard? I’ll dig up some diagrams on the more advanced-but-still-legacy AP’s.
 
C177B Flyer said:
Curious. It doesn’t seem to have any connection to an AI on the wiring diagram. The wings level function appears to be solely internal to the device’s turn coordinator function. Century’s page on it states that a vacuum failure will not affect the operation of it, so I don’t think there is any tie to the AI. The only external input option seems to be radio left and right. “150 millivolts full scale + left and +right”. Perhaps that isn’t standard? I’ll dig up some diagrams on the more advanced-but-still-legacy AP’s.
Click to expand...

Ah OK, it may be that the CI is a rate-based autopilot (like S-TEC), in which case it should work fine with the G5.

So now I'm confused. What is it you think the G5 won't do? And what G5 configuration? Does your autopilot have a heading mode? Because if you have the G5 HSI, and a rate-based autopilot with a heading mode, it should follow the heading bug... You need the GAD 29B adapter connected between the HSI and the autopilot, and you need the GMU 11 magnetometer (which comes with the HSI version of the G5, which is one reason why it's more expensive than the AI version of the G5).

If you put in a G5 as the AI, you won't have the magnetometer... Maybe that is what you're referring to?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ah OK, it may be that the CI is a rate-based autopilot (like S-TEC), in which case it should work fine with the G5.

So now I'm confused. What is it you think the G5 won't do? And what G5 configuration? Does your autopilot have a heading mode? Because if you have the G5 HSI, and a rate-based autopilot with a heading mode, it should follow the heading bug... You need the GAD 29B adapter connected between the HSI and the autopilot, and you need the GMU 11 magnetometer (which comes with the HSI version of the G5, which is one reason why it's more expensive than the AI version of the G5).

If you put in a G5 as the AI, you won't have the magnetometer... Maybe that is what you're referring to?
Click to expand...
The fundamental problem is that the Century I (combination T&B + rate-based AP all-in-one unit) can take VOR/LOC input and nothing else.

More info here:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...pilot-and-replacing-loran.82633/#post-1791850
 
asicer said:
The fundamental problem is that the Century I (combination T&B + rate-based AP all-in-one unit) can take VOR/LOC input and nothing else.

More info here:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...pilot-and-replacing-loran.82633/#post-1791850
Click to expand...
I read that too. Pretty much the CDI sends output to the C1, which it can follow in track mode. Can a gps course show on a CDI so that the CDI can tell the C1 to turn?

Kent, I asked because it seems like it should work as you say, but people tell me it can’t fly a heading even though it’s supposed to follow a VOR. My question was “Why not?” If there are left and right inputs, I should be able to provide that from an analog source. All that the autopilot knows is that it’s being told to turn right or left.

Regardless of the C1’s abilities, I’m thinking of going with a pair of G5’s, one for AI and one for DG, with all of the stuff needed for the DG. It would just be great if the G5’s course deflections could be used for the AP on long trips. I may be able to send it through this old MC-60 “nav converter” for translation to the AP. I’ll dig into that a bit.
 
asicer said:
The fundamental problem is that the Century I (combination T&B + rate-based AP all-in-one unit) can take VOR/LOC input and nothing else.

More info here:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...pilot-and-replacing-loran.82633/#post-1791850
Click to expand...

Ah. So the Century I never had a heading mode in the first place. Nothing the G5 can do about that... Except make it easy for you to install a GFC 500. ;)

Sorry for my confusion, the rest of the Century line is attitude-based, I didn't realize the I was rate-based. Kinda like King, almost all of their stuff is attitude-based but the KAP 140 is rate-based.
 
Last edited:
flyingcheesehead said:
Ah. So the Century I never had a heading mode in the first place. Nothing the G5 can do about that... Except make it easy for you to install a GFC 500. ;)
Click to expand...

Well a Century-I can share a servo and serve as a backup to a IIb, III or IV. But if a GFC500 is on the table... why?;)

Sorry for my confusion, the rest of the Century line is attitude-based, I didn't realize the I was rate-based. Kinda like King, almost all of their stuff is attitude-based but the KAP 140 is rate-based.
Click to expand...

And yet the 140 has a heading mode...:dunno:
 
asicer said:
Well a Century-I can share a servo and serve as a backup to a IIb, III or IV. But if a GFC500 is on the table... why?;)
Click to expand...

It's amazing how much the new crop of lower-priced autopilots has changed everything. Two years ago, if you had a dead Piper/Century/Cessna autopilot that was old and difficult to overhaul, you still did it because the best option you had for a new retrofit was the S-TEC 30, which was well into 5-figure territory plus installation, so most of the way to $20K by the time all was said and done... And it only had altitude hold for the pitch axis. Now, you can put in an entire dual G5 + GFC500 system in for less than that and have IAS mode, VS, altitude preselect, GPSS, etc. It's really changed the game.

And yet the 140 has a heading mode...:dunno:
Click to expand...

Yeah, nothing about rate-based vs. attitude-based really affects what features are made available. Having a nav tracking mode but no heading mode is... Unusual, to say the least.
 
Last edited:
Unit74 said:
Depends on what you want to do with the AP. Spending almost $3k more for no more functionality is dumb. Insinuating a $250k must have a $20k AP or it’s worthless is just plain ignorant. It’s about on par with trying to say a Rolex can tell time better than a Timex. But I guess on the ramp you can tell your buds all about how much you spent which equals swagger I guess.

Cost is proportional to functionality. Paying a higher cost for the same service defies logic. But a fool and his money are soon parted as they say. Is a three servo GFC500 better than a TT? You bet. Not considering the G5 or E5 arguement, Is a two servo GFC better than a two servo Trutrak? Not really.
Click to expand...

How is that New Years resolution going?
 
:dunno:
C177B Flyer said:
Can a gps course show on a CDI so that the CDI can tell the C1 to turn?
Click to expand...

I believe so.

Kent, I asked because it seems like it should work as you say, but people tell me it can’t fly a heading even though it’s supposed to follow a VOR. My question was “Why not?” If there are left and right inputs, I should be able to provide that from an analog source. All that the autopilot knows is that it’s being told to turn right or left.
Click to expand...

Maybe because it's based on a T&B instead of a TC? I have flown a Century-I that had a switch that was supposed to allow it to follow the heading bug. It didn't work. I don't know if it was a maintenance issue or if it just never worked to begin with (I didn't ask). I do know that when switched to tracking a VOR it was, to be generous, a bit wobbly. Perhaps tracking a heading bug is even worse to the point of being worthless? :dunno:

Regardless of the C1’s abilities, I’m thinking of going with a pair of G5’s, one for AI and one for DG, with all of the stuff needed for the DG. It would just be great if the G5’s course deflections could be used for the AP on long trips. I may be able to send it through this old MC-60 “nav converter” for translation to the AP. I’ll dig into that a bit.
Click to expand...

Do you really want to output the GPS to both the G5 HSI and the MC60 CDI at the same time? Is that even legal?
 
Unit74 said:
$7200 will get you a Trutrak installed....... if you are on the AML of course.
Click to expand...

Hi, sorry this is an old thread. I was wondering about the Trutrak install pricing and where you got the ~ $2200 price for the install? I looked at the installation process for my PA32 and I can imagine the install taking 3-4 days, at most. But one shop I spoke with quoted me a 7.5 labor day installation, which seemed awfully steep for the job. Any suggestions on mid-Atlantic East Coast shops?

-Chris
 
You lost me at VFR glass panel.

If you’re VFR I’d just use the cheapest and lightest steam you can find on barnstormers classifieds.

Dumping that much $$$ into avionics for a VMC ship is silly.
 
As much as an old topic this is, it is current. Myself I'm still banging my head trying to decide whether to spend bucks trying to recover my installed Kap150 and then keeping my steam gauges or going Aspen for the rig to work, or consider G5s with no a/p, or (now) to evaluate a very simple TruTrak. Can I keep my Kap150 trim servo and install another autopilot?
 
Yes you can if you’re careful. You won’t get auto trim, but you can keep the electric trim working.
 
Jesse Saint said:
Yes you can if you’re careful. You won’t get auto trim, but you can keep the electric trim working.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jesse, you always helping from the misterious shop-rate-capability side. What do you mean by careful? Choosing the shop or paperwork?. Keeping my trim (assuming my servo is working and worth keeping) would open up the Vizion route when the stc comes. Will it work with G5s? Can't seem to find any compatibility info.
 
I mean that some components from the auto pilot can be removed and others must remain to keep the trim working.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top