Don't buy those G5's

GRG55 said:
Anybody here done this 2 X G5 with GPSS to a Piper Altimatic IIIc?
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If the legacy AP is supported it shouldn't matter which one. GPSS is very simple. The Magenta line info is converted into a heading via the G5 and that heading info is sent to the AP. If your Altimatic IIIc has a heading mode then it will work just like every other AP. Imagine if you kept your hand on the HDG bug of your HSI / DG and were able to precisely imitate the magenta line's command from your GPS including smooth turns to new headings. That's all the G5 is doing.
 
Has anyone had any engine issues with an airplane equipped with the G5? Does different vibration patterns affect G5 reliability?
 
arkvet said:
From Aspen web site: Versatile Performance – presents attitude information with altitude, airspeed, vertical speed plus DG/CDI course deviation indicator into a single display with a backup battery. Includes Global Positioning System (GPSS) Steering, air data computer and attitude heading reference system (ADAHRS)

So are they being misleading by saying "Includes gpss"?
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yes and they are being extremely sneaky on this (feel free to correct my interpretations)

1. in their brochure - they say GPSS and Air Data Computer (this one i said is a plus for Aspen... BUT.. read on)
2. in the product comparison with G5 on their own website they say 4995 for Aspen and 5250 (or whatever) for Garmin G5

in reality:

https://aspenavionics.com/documents/products/evolution/ASPEN_091_00049_001_Feature_Comparison_FA.pdf

upload_2018-3-28_9-42-51.png

then down below:

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so the way i read it, without that ACU, you aint gonna get any GPSS for analog AP. may be TruTrack AP is a diff case, but nowhere i can see that TruTrack will work for the E5 version of Aspen (the $4995 version without ACU).

about the Air Data Computer that i thought was a plus:

top of the brochure:

upload_2018-3-28_9-45-45.png

scroll down below to the actual feature section

upload_2018-3-28_9-46-36.png

if ADC cant show me TAS or Wind Direction, there is literally no use for it. apart from OAT, G5 already shows you the rest of the stuff
 
Wow, yes looks like digging deeper confirmed your interpretation. Saying GPSS is "included" when it requires additional hardware goes beyond misleading IMHO. I would categorize that as lying. Maybe it was missed in the editing of the advertisement? And yeah without TAS or wind information would it even be considered an ADC? I've got a JPI 830 that gives OAT so the E5 would provide nothing over the G5's as far as "ADC"
 
arkvet said:
Wow, yes looks like digging deeper confirmed your interpretation. Saying GPSS is "included" when it requires additional hardware goes beyond misleading IMHO. I would categorize that as lying. Maybe it was missed in the editing of the advertisement? And yeah without TAS or wind information would it even be considered an ADC? I've got a JPI 830 that gives OAT so the E5 would provide nothing over the G5's as far as "ADC"
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from my experience, advertising team always "miss stuff in editing". in their defense, they can say TruTrack AP doesnt need the ACU (i dont know if they do or not)

i didnt think you call it ADC without TAS or Wind information either...

some other info: https://www.avweb.com/videos/Aspens-New-Low-Cost-EFI-230514-1.html
At the Aircraft Electronics Association show in Las Vegas, Aspen announced a new low-priced EFI, the E5. It's based on the company's Evolution series PFD, but it's non-certified and can be paired with TruTrak's new non-certified autopilot.


Edit: this supports the other article: https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/AEA-Aspen-Introduces-Low-Cost-EFI-230507-1.html

"Aspen says the new instrument can be upgraded to a version that integrates with TruTrak’s emerging Vizion autopilot for an all-in price of under $10,000."

so 10K for Aspen so that it can integrate with TruTrack certificated version of AP. now this is funny
 
Clark1961 said:
I’d believe the screen wasn’t designed this decade. This century? Well, let’s just say that’s a stretch. No need to make stuff up.
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The product was certified in 2005, we know how long the certification process is, plus development cycle. Heck it takes Garmin years to complete certification, let alone a small upstart company. It’s not much of a stretch.
 
In my view this E5 offering and the (again, temporary) price drop on the EFD1000, which is (again) not nearly enough of a price cut, is a sign of major distress from Aspen.

They have nothing new to compete with Garmin. They're selling the same unit, albeit ostensibly with a crisper screen, with a different level of software degradation to include a couple more features. It's still not an HSI, so calling it apples and oranges is being generous if anything. All this represents is playing with the packaging and price points, and giving the unit a new name. Detailed review shows the need for additional hardware to match a pair of G5s from an AP integration perspective. And you still don't end up with an HSI...

This really isn't very complicated. Hands down, the G5s win in every category. (Can basic functionality such as "HSI" even count as a category? Isn't that the whole point?) The only way this makes sense is if the full EFD1000 package drops price permanently to compete with the G5s. Then it gets interesting. But I don't think it's possible for Aspen to do this, from a financial perspective as well as their imperative not to alienate their existing userbase which paid full price.

Aspen should have had R&D going this whole time to introduce a new product. Maybe that'll still happen at some point and they just can't pull the curtain back yet, but the clock is ticking. If they have nothing else to show for a 10 year lead on this market, they are toast.
 
arkvet said:
If the legacy AP is supported it shouldn't matter which one. GPSS is very simple. The Magenta line info is converted into a heading via the G5 and that heading info is sent to the AP. If your Altimatic IIIc has a heading mode then it will work just like every other AP. Imagine if you kept your hand on the HDG bug of your HSI / DG and were able to precisely imitate the magenta line's command from your GPS including smooth turns to new headings. That's all the G5 is doing.
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My own, albeit limited, experience with modern, integrated, "very simple" avionics is that "It isn't". Happy to hear your's is otherwise, but mine is one of things that are supposed to work together seamlessly don't, and stuff that is working stops for reasons unknown. At one point I had to send my 530 back to Garmin as it would not accept database updates, and everything I tried talking to them over the phone didn't work. My King center stack equipment is older, much older, and none of it has ever had to be pulled yet.
 
GRG55 said:
My own, albeit limited, experience with modern, integrated, "very simple" avionics is that "It isn't". Happy to hear your's is otherwise, but mine is one of things that are supposed to work together seamlessly don't, and stuff that is working stops for reasons unknown. At one point I had to send my 530 back to Garmin as it would not accept database updates, and everything I tried talking to them over the phone didn't work. My King center stack equipment is older, much older, and none of it has ever had to be pulled yet.
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That does happen sometimes.

Also, the entire raging debate about cost. I got a pretty good deal on my installation, but some of the number thrown around sometimes (not thread specific) are a little ridiculous. Usually, for good work, you'll pay good money. Rarely is it "super cheap and super good" in my experience.
 
My plane has a Century IIB autopilot that needs input from both the AI and heading bug to operate. I was hoping to get dual G5s to replace my vacuum AI/DG and be able to ditch my vacuum pump. But found out that a G5 in the AI role will not provide the needed roll information to the autopilot, so I would need to keep a vacuum AI and the vacuum pump to drive the AP. Isn't the Altimatic III a rebranded Century III that also needs an AI capable of providing roll information to the autopilot? If so, then it couldn't be driven by a G5.

Is the Century IIB on the list of legacy autopilots supported by the Aspen E5?
 
bkspero said:
My plane has a Century IIB autopilot that needs input from both the AI and heading bug to operate. I was hoping to get dual G5s to replace my vacuum AI/DG and be able to ditch my vacuum pump. But found out that a G5 in the AI role will not provide the needed roll information to the autopilot, so I would need to keep a vacuum AI and the vacuum pump to drive the AP. Isn't the Altimatic III a rebranded Century III that also needs an AI capable of providing roll information to the autopilot? If so, then it couldn't be driven by a G5...
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That was my understanding also.
I think most in that situation are swapping the AI into the TC hole.
In my case I need to keep the vacuum system for the boots, but it still seems a less than clean way to interface the G5s with the Altimatic/Century autopilot. That's why I was hoping someone here had figured a better way with the Garmins.
 
bkspero said:
My plane has a Century IIB autopilot that needs input from both the AI and heading bug to operate. I was hoping to get dual G5s to replace my vacuum AI/DG and be able to ditch my vacuum pump. But found out that a G5 in the AI role will not provide the needed roll information to the autopilot, so I would need to keep a vacuum AI and the vacuum pump to drive the AP. Isn't the Altimatic III a rebranded Century III that also needs an AI capable of providing roll information to the autopilot? If so, then it couldn't be driven by a G5.

Is the Century IIB on the list of legacy autopilots supported by the Aspen E5?
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https://aspenavionics.com/support/evolution-approvals/

Most of the Century stuff is supported. At least one ACU is required. The EA100 can replace the vacuum AI. An experienced shop is needed for the installation so the ACU is matched to the autopilot.
 
bkspero said:
My plane has a Century IIB autopilot that needs input from both the AI and heading bug to operate. I was hoping to get dual G5s to replace my vacuum AI/DG and be able to ditch my vacuum pump. But found out that a G5 in the AI role will not provide the needed roll information to the autopilot, so I would need to keep a vacuum AI and the vacuum pump to drive the AP. Isn't the Altimatic III a rebranded Century III that also needs an AI capable of providing roll information to the autopilot? If so, then it couldn't be driven by a G5.

Is the Century IIB on the list of legacy autopilots supported by the Aspen E5?
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In mine I have century 2000, I installed the G5 as a replacement for TC, moved the vacuum AI to TC hole. Everything works, but I need to keep the vacuum system


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Good points above. Yes most if not all Century AP need the vacuum AI to receive roll information. At first I thought that was a negative as I installed my G5’s. In hindsight I actually think it’s fine if not a solid positive. Having that vacuum AI in the TC hole is a very solid and independent backup attitude reference for those digital AI displays.

So let’s say in theory both G5’s go black or red X. (Not gonna happen) but let’s say it happens. My vacuum AI and Century 41 should keep right on flying the plane (wings level) as I calm myself and adjust my plan / scan. Yes I would lose the HSI (HDG) input to the AP but that would simply allow the plane to drift off heading rather than any significant attitude changes.

I realize something like the Dynon’s package is much prettier and loaded with function but I wonder if my “parched together” panel doesn’t offer substantially more safety in the event of failure. Independent G5’s, a vacuum AI. OEM ASI / VSI / ALT, IFD 550 (with synthetic vision), an AP that receives its attitude input from something within but not “central” (think about that) to my primary scan, etc.

So would I put a Dynon skyview in my plane if it was an option for my PA32 and I could go back in time before spending the money on all my upgrades over time? Absolutely. I like shiny new awesome gadgets. Lots of function but still no more redundant than my current panel.
 
arkvet said:
Good points above. Yes most if not all Century AP need the vacuum AI to receive roll information. At first I thought that was a negative as I installed my G5’s. In hindsight I actually think it’s fine if not a solid positive. Having that vacuum AI in the TC hole is a very solid and independent backup attitude reference for those digital AI displays.

So let’s say in theory both G5’s go black or red X. (Not gonna happen) but let’s say it happens. My vacuum AI and Century 41 should keep right on flying the plane (wings level) as I calm myself and adjust my plan / scan. Yes I would lose the HSI (HDG) input to the AP but that would simply allow the plane to drift off heading rather than any significant attitude changes.
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Yeah, it's not a bad backup, and having the AP look at the legacy ADI is an advantage too -- it will make troubleshooting very straightforward. I would still rather get rid of my vacuum system altogether at some point in the near to intermediate future; two G5s is plenty of redundancy (that's two units and two battery backups in addition to the aircraft's primary and backup electrical power sources), but in the meantime, it still offers value as a totally independent backup.

I'm really surprised at how many people feel comfortable flying behind an Aspen with no secondary ADI backup. Two G5s offer so much more redundancy.
 
Ryan F. said:
I'm really surprised at how many people feel comfortable flying behind an Aspen with no secondary ADI backup. Two G5s offer so much more redundancy.
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The Aspen equipped IFR capable airplanes I know of at my airport all have two screens - PFD and MFD. Thats how they dealt with the redundancy issue. These installations date back at least 4 years or more, and I think the dual Aspen offered the redundant AHRS that the Garmin G500 did not.

The single screen in a VFR airplane is something I've only seen in pictures. I think the Aspen price was historically too high to swallow for the owners I know. But the dual G5 installions are proliferating like mushrooms now, especially in the 172s at my home base. Perhaps because they started off competing with the expensive Garmin G500/600 maybe Aspen was late to recognize the price barrier for simple, mostly VFR airplanes.
 
There's a lot of misunderstandings here. Chief among them is the confusion between Aspen's E5 and "VFR" offerings. The VFR has been around for a while, and while the E5 is fairly similar, it is NOT the same. It is approved for IFR and has some features the VFR doesn't.

While I do like Garmin, and I dislike the lack of an HSI (or TAS display) on the E5, the E5 has some things that are pretty compelling for me:

1) It can feed attitude information to my (KFC150) autopilot. With the E5 I can thus ditch my vacuum system and KI-256 AI. With G5s, I have to keep my dying KI-256 and my vacuum system.
2) It would add GPSS to my setup. I do not have a GPSS roll steering converter for the KFC150, and the G5 doesn't provide it.

I would like to see Garmin address these. If the G5 could replace my AI/FD, we would have put in dual G5s already. Alas, it cannot so we're stuck waiting to see what Garmin does next.
 
GRG55 said:
and only paid Garmin $2200 + $2900 for the hardware & software.
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$2149 and $2975, respectively.

Garmin G5 PFD
Garmin G5 HSI
Garmin GPS400W
STEC 30 + ALT

What an absolute beast of a rig. I have 28 hours on them, 2.9 actual IMC. GPSS works great, tracks LPV dead nuts, spins the knob to a heading perfectly. HSI is simple, works great.

No way I'd install those ugly Aspens.
 
jimmyjack said:
$2149 and $2975, respectively.

Garmin G5 PFD
Garmin G5 HSI
Garmin GPS400W
STEC 30 + ALT

What an absolute beast of a rig. I have 28 hours on them, 2.9 actual IMC. GPSS works great, tracks LPV dead nuts, spins the knob to a heading perfectly. HSI is simple, works great.

No way I'd install those ugly Aspens.
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No kidding $5,000 upgrade for HSI, no way... Correction they have a special right now the Evolution Pro is $7,995 at this time so addl $3k for HSI and some other add on's. Maybe as the screen is definitely larger as no bezel between the units
 
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I like my dual G5 setup.. It gives me a nice cozy feeling that I have a backup AI if needed... Also, it's a great upgrade to my 66' Cherokee 180's panel..
 

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Indiana_Pilot said:
I like my dual G5 setup.. It gives me a nice cozy feeling that I have a backup AI if needed... Also, it's a great upgrade to my 66' Cherokee 180's panel..
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It would seem to me that's the primary market for the G5. If I were putting together an IFR panel for an experimental right now, a G5 would be on the short list of considerations as a good backup to the other panel glass.

But if I were in the market to update a certified bird, for sure I'd be looking at the G5 as a way to get some glass and good redundancy along with some enhanced capability on the panel. And there are orders of magnitude more old certified panels out there as compared to experimentals.
 
Does the IFR approved version of whatever Aspen display we are talking about have a battery backup?

The redundancy of two G5's is very attractive to me. Having all your eggs in one basket, i.e. everything is on one display, means you still need a backup ADI if you are going to fly serious IFR.
 
Groundpounder said:
Does the IFR approved version of whatever Aspen display we are talking about have a battery backup?

The redundancy of two G5's is very attractive to me. Having all your eggs in one basket, i.e. everything is on one display, means you still need a backup ADI if you are going to fly serious IFR.
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Yes it does. Both the G5 and E5 are battery backed. By serious IFR, do you mean that anyone who is still on steam gauges cannot fly “serious” IFR? I thought I was flying serious IFR when I was hard imc for 45 minutes, but I see now it was just basic IFR since I do not have a back up AI installed.
 
Unit74 said:
Yes it does. Both the G5 and E5 are battery backed. By serious IFR, do you mean that anyone who is still on steam gauges cannot fly “serious” IFR? I thought I was flying serious IFR when I was hard imc for 45 minutes, but I see now it was just basic IFR since I do not have a back up AI installed.
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My opinion*, is that if you are going to fly IMC on a regular basis there needs to be a backup ADI of some sort.

*Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one, and they think theirs doesn't stink.
 
Indiana_Pilot said:
I wish the G5 would drive my old Century 1 Auto Pilot..


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$7200 will get you a Trutrak installed....... if you are on the AML of course.
 
Indiana_Pilot said:
That’s not terrible..


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It’s unbelievable if you asked me.... for under $10k you can do a G5 and the TT installed. Turns your Cherokee into a serious piece of equipment.
 
Unit74 said:
It’s unbelievable if you asked me.... for under $10k you can do a G5 and the TT installed. Turns your Cherokee into a serious piece of equipment.
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How long does the install generally take? I’d be happy with heading and altitude hold!

Wouldn’t the GFC500 be a better option though?


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Indiana_Pilot said:
How long does the install generally take? I’d be happy with heading and altitude hold!

Wouldn’t the GFC500 be a better option though?


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Yes..... but your now $20k-ish for the GFC 500. I’d think most shops can do it in a week or so if nothing causes snags. Pick your poison. If you can live without auto trim, the TT will do the same job as the GFC for half the cost.i talked to Trutrak recently and first priority is the AML and they do have autotrim on the to-do list for upgrades. I suspect in a couple years it will be available.
 
The GFC 500 was $7800 with auto trim (3 servos), TT $5000 with 2, if you are already installing the G5s, it’s only $2800 difference, plus installation. Obviously with 3 servos and connections required to G5s, the Garmin installation with be a bit more (50% ?), but it’s not $10K.


Tom
 
teejayevans said:
The GFC 500 was $7800 with auto trim (3 servos), TT $5000 with 2, if you are already installing the G5s, it’s only $2800 difference, plus installation. Obviously with 3 servos and connections required to G5s, the Garmin installation with be a bit more (50% ?), but it’s not $10K.


Tom
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Real quotes I have seen are $13k on the GFC 500 installed WITH pitch trim plus the G5's for about $8k more installed. The GFC does not come WITH pitch trim. It is an option. The Garmin website is a bit misleading on costs. You can have a 2 servo GFC 500 for $10k installed, but if you are going to do it, do it right and go pitch trim I say. You can go TruTrack for $7500 fly away and keep $2500 in you pocket. But, the GFC gives you a flight director if that is desirable. I'm not flying big iron and have no need for it, as I am sure most do not either so the TT just makes more fiscal sense. But sensibility be damned, buy what the check book can handle!!

Talking equipment cost is also very misleading. Installation is a huge monetary factory in complicated system installs. It is the bottom dollar that matters. And don't forget tax if that is in play.
 
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Indiana_Pilot said:
How long does the install generally take? I’d be happy with heading and altitude hold!

Wouldn’t the GFC500 be a better option though?
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Yes, if you need or want the additional functionality:
ILS/VOR tracking, IAS climbs, envelop protection, flight director, instrument approach down to minimums.

But if you’re happy with just heading and altitude hold, then TT will suffice (does gps track, not magnetic heading). Heck a stec 50 can do all that.
It depends, is this your forever plane? Then I would go for the better AP.
How expensive is the plane?
I ask because maybe a $30,000 plane with TT would be a plus, a $150,000 with TT would be considered a negative. The more expensive the plane, the better you expect the avionics. If I had a $250,000+ plane, I might consider the GFC600 as the expected AP.
There is no 1 size fits all. If you expect to sell the plane, ask yourself what will potential buyers want.


Tom
 
teejayevans said:
I ask because maybe a $30,000 plane with TT would be a plus, a $150,000 with TT would be considered a negative. The more expensive the plane, the better you expect the avionics. If I had a $250,000+ plane, I might consider the GFC600 as the expected AP.


Tom
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Now you are talking trash just to talk trash. Your comments are rather jaded.....And transparent. You don't happen to drink tea with your pinky sticking out, do you? :rolleyes:
 
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