Doing an Instrument Rating with just VOR/ILS equipped plane?

CC268

CC268

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CC268
Just wondering what you guys think of doing my Instrument Rating in an airplane that is equipped with dual VOR (one is a VOR/ILS), but no DME...is this viable or not very smart? I can learn the other systems (GPS, etc) later maybe?
 
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ILS, LOC, VOR and you're done. Make sure none of the approaches you'd be doing are stamped DME REQUIRED and you should be okay.

Oh look -- there are more opinions on the way!
 
I plan on doing the exact same thing. I have a VOR and a VOR/ILS, but no DME.
 
It is how I'm doing mine.

Actually, there's one plane with dual VOR/LOC, one with GS and a DME. The DME is intermittent. The GS only works on frequencies which end in 0. :(

So mostly I'm flying the other plane which has 1 VOR/LOC with GS and a very old GPS which we can only use as a DME. There are plenty of approaches in the central Florida area so I'm OK. I figure I'll learn the new(er) equipment when I have access.

John
 
Should be an easy ride. It's not hard to learn GPS approaches after you get your ticket.
 
It's done all the time. As long as it's IFR legal. I wouldn't suggest doing this with only one nav/comm (or you'll be doing a lot of twisting and switching), but two shouldn't be an issue.

I would expect GPS approach questions on your oral, since they do have some idiosyncrasies. Such as the meaning of the CDI dots. And how to tell if you use LPV or LNAV minimums. But you can practice those as easily on a simulator (the Redbirds, for instance, have a pretty good 430/530 model, though the knob feels wrong), if it's necessary to really understand them.
 
I just finished with an instrument student who owns an airplane equipped like that. Actually, he has DME as well.

While the training went fine, we were noticeably limited in the approaches we could fly that were available locally. Without DME, he would have been even more limited. Especially as the FAA cancelled a bunch of VOR approaches earlier this year, you may notice yourself flying the same approaches again and again unless you extend your lessons farther and farther away from your home field (not a bad idea, of course, but does tend to lengthen the lessons).

Basically, it's becoming harder in many areas of the country to train effectively with only VOR/ILS. (By effectively, I mean having access to many different approaches at many different airports reasonably nearby.)
 
MAKG1 said:
It's done all the time. As long as it's IFR legal. I wouldn't suggest doing this with only one nav/comm (or you'll be doing a lot of twisting and switching), but two shouldn't be an issue.

I would expect GPS approach questions on your oral, since they do have some idiosyncrasies. Such as the meaning of the CDI dots. And how to tell if you use LPV or LNAV minimums. But you can practice those as easily on a simulator (the Redbirds, for instance, have a pretty good 430/530 model, though the knob feels wrong), if it's necessary to really understand them.
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Thanks and there are two NAV/COMs...I am fairly familiar with the 430 as I used it in my PPL, but I will check out the Redbird thing your talking about.
 
RussR said:
I just finished with an instrument student who owns an airplane equipped like that. Actually, he has DME as well.

While the training went fine, we were noticeably limited in the approaches we could fly that were available locally. Without DME, he would have been even more limited. Especially as the FAA cancelled a bunch of VOR approaches earlier this year, you may notice yourself flying the same approaches again and again unless you extend your lessons farther and farther away from your home field (not a bad idea, of course, but does tend to lengthen the lessons).

Basically, it's becoming harder in many areas of the country to train effectively with only VOR/ILS. (By effectively, I mean having access to many different approaches at many different airports reasonably nearby.)
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Yes I have been told that Arizona is like that as well...just not worth buying a GPS to throw in the plane.
 
Same here buy a cheap plane like Piper Archer and remove DME and leave just VOR, ILS and LOC for basic IFR. Add GPS later.
 
Blueangel said:
Same here buy a cheap plane like Piper Archer and remove DME and leave just VOR, ILS and LOC for basic IFR. Add GPS later.
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Me and my dad are in the process of buying a Piper Cherokee 140 right now...beautiful plane actually...I can save A LOT of cash going this route and hiring an independent instructor instead of going to my previous flight school. This will likely cut my cost in half and then I can go learn the GPS in another plane after. That is the plan, but I wanted to see what everyone here thought. So far it is looking good.

Not to mention I can fly A LOT if I have my own aircraft...will probably try to fly 3 times a week atleast which will help get me some hours for when I go after my Commercial as well.
 
CC268 said:
Just wondering what you guys think of doing my Instrument Rating in an airplane that is equipped with dual VOR/ILS, but no DME...is this viable or not very smart? I can learn the other systems (GPS, etc) later maybe?
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I would say this is stupid. I say this because that's what I did. And I am stupid. So, there you go.
 
rolivi said:
ILS, LOC, VOR and you're done. Make sure none of the approaches you'd be doing are stamped DME REQUIRED and you should be okay.
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Well, you also need to check the notes box, too, to see if DME is required. They only stamp DME required in the plan view when its required to get from the en route environment to procedure entry. If DME is only required for the missed, then they hide the DME required in the notes box.
 
MAKG1 said:
I would expect GPS approach questions on your oral, since they do have some idiosyncrasies. Such as the meaning of the CDI dots. And how to tell if you use LPV or LNAV minimums. But you can practice those as easily on a simulator (the Redbirds, for instance, have a pretty good 430/530 model, though the knob feels wrong), if it's necessary to really understand them.
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If you have no GPS, then you can expect no such question on the oral. At least you could before the change from the PTS to what they currently call it. But I presume that's still true.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Huh? o_O
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I have heard that your are limited in terms of the amount approaches here in the Phoenix area if you don't have a GPS. Idk I haven't even started my Instrument ground school so my knowledge is none...I was just repeating was I have heard...doesn't mean its true.
 
It's how I did mine. Worked fine.

Don't have to worry about shooting a DME arc ether ;) not that a arc is hard to shoot once you learn it properly.
 
CC268 said:
I have heard that your are limited in terms of the amount approaches here in the Phoenix area if you don't have a GPS. Idk I haven't even started my Instrument ground school so my knowledge is none...I was just repeating was I have heard...doesn't mean its true.
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You comment: "just not worth buying a GPS to throw in the plane." contradicts that, thus the "huh?"
 
Your situational awareness will be WAAAY better if you don't bring along and train with a damn moving map GPS.
 
I've been smack dab in that "fun" Walt. I'll gladly miss it. Tucson's approaches are mainly GPS as well.
 
Well it is what it is...I have the opportunity to do my Instrument for dirt cheap and then transition to GPS later...not worth spending 10k to put a GPS in a Cherokee 140 lol...unless there is a cheaper route to get a GPS
 
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Walboy said:
Just be ready for a discontinuance on your checkride and wasted training time when KIWA isn't cooperative. Why not install a used DME?
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That could certainly be an option. This would open more options up in the Phoenix area?
 
Okay great we will have to look into getting a DME then!
 
CC268 said:
Just wondering what you guys think of doing my Instrument Rating in an airplane that is equipped with dual VOR/ILS, but no DME...is this viable or not very smart? I can learn the other systems (GPS, etc) later maybe?
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One more vote for go ahead full steam. That's how I did mine, and see nothing wrong with adding more training later as needed, when you get the fancier stuff. If anything, it will teach you the basics even better than relying on color moving maps.
I'd save the DME money for buying the good stuff later, BTW.
 
Walboy said:
Talk to a local CFIIs who do lots of checkrides. They may have a different opinion. Definitely look for used if you think you're going to either upgrade to a GPS or keep the airplane for a relatively short period of time. If the airplane doesn't have a current IFR cert, then you're probably going to be meeting with an avionics guy anyway.
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Yea I need to talk with some CFIIs...good thing is that the airplane is indeed currently IFR certified
 
Yea it has two VORs, two nav/com
 
I would join the group saying go ahead. You might also want to check the approach plates. Some say "DME or Radar Required." If they do, you can use ATC radar.
 
Walboy said:
Talk to a local CFIIs who do lots of checkrides. They may have a different opinion. Definitely look for used if you think you're going to either upgrade to a GPS or keep the airplane for a relatively short period of time. If the airplane doesn't have a current IFR cert, then you're probably going to be meeting with an avionics guy anyway.
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Who care about what some CFI with near zero real world IMC time thinks, both the CFI and the DPE are working for you, fly to PTS = pass.

My ideal would be

Train in a dual nav/com non GPS, no iPad, no moving maps, no AP.

Transition to a /G GNS or better with a HSI or better and a AP, for day to day flying.

Build a solid foundation, add to that.
 
James331 said:
Who care about what some CFI with near zero real world IMC time thinks, both the CFI and the DPE are working for you, fly to PTS = pass.

My ideal would be

Train in a dual nav/com non GPS, no iPad, no moving maps, no AP.

Transition to a /G GNS or better with a HSI or better and a AP, for day to day flying.

Build a solid foundation, add to that.
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Yea that is kind of the plan...we plan on having this Cherokee 140 for maybe a year or two and then spending maybe 75k or so on a Mooney, Vans, or something
 
I'd just suggest making sure you find somebody to keep you on the straight and narrow of GPS when the time comes. It's easy to learn, but given the number of pilots for whom I've had to learn equipment so that I could teach them what they claimed they knew...:rolleyes:
 
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