DOGE and the FAA

[MRC01]

What are the stall characteristics of Malibus, Cirruses, Barons, TBMs…? The previous standards were written when very few pilots went through initial training in high performance airplanes. The mere fact that they wrote the Light Sport standards after the Private standards were changed indicates that there’s a difference.

Yes there is a difference. The M20J that I used to get my complex was trickier to control down to the cusp of the stall. It kept my feet busier than in my 172. Most of the higher performance airplanes are like this - designed for low drag rather than forgiving stall characteristics. Slow flight can be done safely but it takes some practice. Doing the slow flight training in the M20J definitely made me a better safer pilot in that airplane.

Whatever someone flies, mastering slow flight in that airplane is a good thing. If it's a high performance airplane having more challenging stall characteristics, even more important to get that slow flight training. Those who fly high performance airplanes should hold themselves to the higher standards necessary for safe operation.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yes there is a difference. The M20J that I used to get my complex was trickier to control down to the cusp of the stall. It kept my feet busier than in my 172. Most of the higher performance airplanes are like this - designed for low drag rather than forgiving stall characteristics. Slow flight can be done safely but it takes some practice. Doing the slow flight training in the M20J definitely made me a better safer pilot in that airplane.

Whatever someone flies, mastering slow flight in that airplane is a good thing. If it's a high performance airplane having more challenging stall characteristics, even more important to get that slow flight training. Those who fly high performance airplanes should hold themselves to the higher standards necessary for safe operation.

I disagree that subjecting examiners to the potential need for spin recovery in an airplane not certified for spins is a good thing.

 

[Half Fast]

The mere fact that they wrote the Light Sport standards after the Private standards were changed indicates that there’s a difference.

Nope. You have it backward. The change from PTS to ACS for Private happened long after the SP rules were written.

 

[Barrett50]

Trust me, I'm not arguing that government waste is a good thing. But it's also true that I'm old enough to have been hearing the "can't go on like this much longer" for 50 years, so I'm suspicious that, finally, this time it will be true. Heck, when I bought my first house, in the 80's, I remember the old-timers telling me that housing was unaffordable and they didn't understand how 'kids' could do it. Sound familiar?

I guess technically you are right. It could go on like this as proven by the Reichsmark, and the Confederate 'greenbacks' which are worth less tha the paper they are printed on. OBTW, both of those examples ended in the destruction of the nation that fiated them.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Nope. You have it backward. The change from PTS to ACS for Private happened long after the SP rules were written.

And they still decided the change was necessary.

 

[Half Fast]

Replacing an experienced employee with someone whose main qualification is political loyalty is not efficient.

Ron Wanttaja

Well, it might be an efficient way to change the status quo rather rapidly.

 

[Half Fast]

And they still decided the change was necessary.

Yes, and some of us are saying they decided wrongly. Whatever plane a pilot is flying, shouldn’t the pilot become proficient enough to fly it at MCA? Won’t that create a safer pilot?

 

[AKiss20]

Well, it might be an efficient way to change the status quo rather rapidly.

That’s like saying a house fire is an efficient way to redecorate.

 

[172andyou]

I guess technically you are right. It could go on like this as proven by the Reichsmark, and the Confederate 'greenbacks' which are worth less tha the paper they are printed on. OBTW, both of those examples ended in the destruction of the nation that fiated them.

You might want to dig in a little further on those two examples. Neither was destroyed by mismanagement of their budgets, economies nor fiat currencies.

 

[Baked Potato]

Well, it might be an efficient way to change the status quo rather rapidly.

Where does it end though? Do we want all of our public services to do a complete 180 every four years?

There's a reason why most public servants are hard to fire. If government were an at-will employment scenario, the president could simply bypass Congress and effectively alter (or nullify) the stated mission of any government agency simply by stocking the agencies with loyalists, regardless of their actual skillset.

With the way our political world codifies a blue/red binary choice that seems to ping pong back-and-forth between the two constantly, the last thing we want (if our aim is effective governance) is to completely clean the slate every cycle and start anew. I've gone through too many occurrences of that as a contractor (including with Lockheed) to know that so much time and money is spent performing catch-up when taking a project over from an ousted incumbent.

 

[Half Fast]

That’s like saying a house fire is an efficient way to redecorate.

Bad idea if your objective is to redecorate; possibly reasonable if your objective is to clear off the lot and rebuild.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yes, and some of us are saying they decided wrongly. Whatever plane a pilot is flying, shouldn’t the pilot become proficient enough to fly it at MCA? Won’t that create a safer pilot?

If everything that a pilot should be proficient at needed to be demonstrated on a checkride, that would be one long checkride.

 

[Barrett50]

You might want to dig in a little further on those two examples. Neither was destroyed by mismanagement of their budgets, economies nor fiat currencies.

I didn't say they were destroyed BY those factors, but they were still destroyed. There are other examples not quite as bad, but still a nasty outcome coinciding with the fiat of the currency.

 

[MRC01]

Earlier, you said:

That would probably require limiting private pilot checkrides to airplanes without nasty stall characteristics.

I agree.

I disagree that subjecting examiners to the potential need for spin recovery in an airplane not certified for spins is a good thing.

I agree here too yet with a different "spin". A student pilot shouldn't use a high performance single, or an airplane not certified for intentional spins, for his checkride. A DPE could tell instructors and students not to show up in a plane like that for a PP checkride.

The key distinction is the pilot's level of skill and experience. High performance airplanes should be for high performance pilots having the skills and experience to fly them safely. For an experienced pilot already proficient in slow flight, learning slow flight in a high performance airplane does not have the same risk as in the hands of a student.

 

[Half Fast]

Do we want all of our public services to do a complete 180 every four years?

No, but the longer we go without correcting small course deviations, the greater (and more painful) becomes the total required correction. I won’t go further, as doing so might run afoul of the forum rules.

There's a reason why most public servants are hard to fire.

Certainly, but the question is how far down in an organization to draw that line. If the unelected public servants have enough control and authority to thwart the objectives of elected officials (and hence be in opposition to the voters themselves), then the elected officials must be able to fire and replace them. Otherwise we damage the clear constitutional powers of those we elect.

 

[Half Fast]

If everything that a pilot should be proficient at needed to be demonstrated on a checkride, that would be one long checkride.

But in this case the student is doing slow flight anyway; we’re merely discussing the pass/fail criteria.

 

[MIFlyer]

Learn to fly the airplane behind the power curve, the region of reverse command, all the way to the buffet just on the cusp of stalling. Learn to do gentle turns at that speed, to recover to normal airspeed smoothly without stalling, and to stall it intentionally and recover keeping wings level. Nothing new here, just the stuff we used to do before the FAA changed it.

Why? Flying landings too fast is more common than too slow. I believe one reason for this is that too many pilots aren't proficient in slow flight, they don't like how the controls feel, so they don't slow down enough. Then they wonder why they float halfway down the runway in ground effect. And if something bad happens, they're going faster which is more energy, more damage and injuries.

I'm not familiar with what sport pilot does, but if it's what the PTS for PP used to be before the FAA changed the slow flight rules, then yes, that.

right! I never want to stall, but I want to meet the ground with the lowest energy safely possible!

 

[Baked Potato]

Certainly, but the question is how far down in an organization to draw that line. If the unelected public servants have enough control and authority to thwart the objectives of elected officials (and hence be in opposition to the voters themselves), then the elected officials must be able to fire and replace them. Otherwise we damage the clear constitutional powers of those we elect.

Well, I'd count cabinet positions as unelected. It's already the case that the chairs (and even board members/commissioners/advisory committee members/etc) of all of the agencies can be fired and replaced. The president's discretion and objectives are already prominently on full display at those levels.

I'd not make the case that national election results provide a clear and detailed enough mandate on each and every issue that justifies the firing and replacement of tens of thousands of employees across dozens of disciplines.

 

[MauleSkinner]

But in this case the student is doing slow flight anyway; we’re merely discussing the pass/fail criteria.

Pass/fail criteria is basically +1 or 2 knots, -0. Whether that’s 1-2 knots above stall or 5-6 doesn’t make a difference.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I agree here too yet with a different "spin". A student pilot shouldn't use a high performance single, or an airplane not certified for intentional spins, for his checkride. A DPE could tell instructors and students not to show up in a plane like that for a PP checkride.

push that through at a regulatory level, and you can probably get the ACS changed.

Or just require every pilot to start with a SP certificate.

 

[Half Fast]

Pass/fail criteria is basically +1 or 2 knots, -0. Whether that’s 1-2 knots above stall or 5-6 doesn’t make a difference.

Yes, it most certainly does.

 

[Half Fast]

I'd not make the case that national election results provide a clear and detailed enough mandate on each and every issue that justifies the firing and replacement of tens of thousands of employees across dozens of disciplines.

Maybe, maybe not. It really depends upon whether those "tens of thousands" have the ability to subvert the goals of elected officials. I doubt that there are really that many who do.

"Mandate" seems to be a buzzword, but it's really meaningless. An elected official, whether he won by one vote or one million, must be able to carry out the duties of his office, and that includes defining objectives and (in the case of the executive branch) executing them. In order to do this, he must be able to make necessary staffing decisions, and if a civil service employee is acting on his own volition to prevent that, the elected official must be able to remove and replace him. I rather doubt that firing tens of thousands is necessary, but certainly several hundred might be a possibility given the size of our government.

In any case, it's not up to an unelected civil service employee to decide whether or not a "mandate" exists and whether he should have to carry out tasks as assigned.

 

[Half Fast]

Or just require every pilot to start with a SP certificate.

Great idea! That's what I did.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I guess technically you are right. It could go on like this as proven by the Reichsmark, and the Confederate 'greenbacks' which are worth less tha the paper they are printed on. OBTW, both of those examples ended in the destruction of the nation that fiated them.

Before we get all breathless, let 's take a step back and get some perspective. The US is a $30 trillion economy. Of course you would expect debt levels to increase over time, just as the debt level of ATT is much larger now than it was on 1950. However, having said that, how out of line are we today as compared to historical levels of spending? A couple charts:

The sky isn't falling, and Covid notwithstanding the percentages are pretty much in line with when we thought there was some semblance of fiscal sanity. Any reasonable economist would ask if changes at the revenue and spending margins to get back to historically acceptable levels would be preferable to the disruption and costs of burning it all down.

 

[bflynn]

I click on that and it says “do you want to download….” I do. Now what? What do I do to see it? I’m on an IPad mini 6.

I would (did) download to iBooks. Its easier to read that way.

 

[Bob Noel]

You guys are trying hard to push this political. This thread will get locked soon.

it's already political and has been so for many posts. however, there are some that are focused on the original purpose of the thread.

 

[Bob Noel]

Before we get all breathless, let 's take a step back and get some perspective. The US is a $30 trillion economy. Of course you would expect debt levels to increase over time, just as the debt level of ATT is much larger now than it was on 1950. However, having said that, how out of line are we today as compared to historical levels of spending? A couple charts:View attachment 135266View attachment 135267

The sky isn't falling, and Covid notwithstanding the percentages are pretty much in line with when we thought there was some semblance of fiscal sanity. Any reasonable economist would ask if changes at the revenue and spending margins to get back to historically acceptable levels would be preferable to the disruption and costs of burning it all down.

incomplete picture... missing federal revenues, the cost of paying interest on the debt, and throw in the extra borrowing costs for everyone else because of the total debt.

 

[hindsight2020]

I've met some docs who may be perfectly competent in their specialty, but who would have no clue about how to evaluate someone for fitness as a pilot.

I could say the same thing about some of the hacks with AME and HIMS next to their last name....

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yes, it most certainly does.

Only if you’re not proficient. And if you’re not proficient, you shouldn’t be taking the checkride.

 

[hindsight2020]

On a spreadsheet that’s zero difference. Headcount in most businesses is the biggest expense.

...In the Federal govt, payroll is 4% of US total budget spending. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good scapegoat. My neighbor hates me, guess I hate him too.

Austerity is just rank sadism from the language of grievance crowd. With friends like these who needs enemies type of thing...

 

[Warmi]

Yup. "Private enterprise will always do it better" is a fallacy. Example: https://www.sfgate.com/california-p...ctor-aramark-endangered-visitors-19449430.php

Because you need competition for markets to do their magic.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

...In the Federal govt, payroll is 4% of US total budget spending. But let's not get facts get in the way of a good scapegoat.

I was talking about business headcount, not the gubmint.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I click on that and it says “do you want to download….” I do. Now what? What do I do to see it? I’m on an IPad mini 6.

https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf

 

[Dave Anderson]

end it’s a bureaucracy which has rules and procedures that the workers cannot depart from. There is good and bad in that.

If we could eliminate half or third of red tape for new planes, innovation etc it would be a major win!!!

 

[Dave Anderson]

seems like a number of posters are unable to resist policitcal commentary unrelated to FAA efficiency

I tried as long as cordial we can survive a difference of opinion. We better learn sometime

 

[Dave Anderson]

I'm amazed this thread didn't go sideways and become political. It's refreshing. Thanks for staying on topic and allowing various opinions to emerge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I asked nicely !!!

 

[Dave Anderson]

Correct. It would require a change to the law to eliminate the class 3 pre-req for Basic Med.

Which should be done. The class 3 seems to have little value. Prior to 1960 or so, a flight physical for private pilots could be performed by any physician. Let’s return to that.

Laws are congress my understanding is DOGE can only Make recommendations under the executive branch or staffing

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Some moderation between completely risk-free safety and wild abandon free-for-all of innovation would be cool. Like manufacturers (not home builders) slap a SUPER-EXPERIMENTAL on stuff and let ‘er rip. No lawsuits allowed, lol! You get what you get when you climb in, suck it up buttercup.

 

[Dave Anderson]

As a business guy, you probably know this, but he didn't cut 80% of costs. He cut 80% of staff. Big, big difference.

Well in some cases staff are the biggest costs! I’ve been in many businesses where this is the case. I work for a financial institution and many of twitters fleeing staff tried for jobs and when you have a ton of 200k+ employees it gets expensive!

 

[Dave Anderson]

The discussion is on inefficiency in government.

Yes. Please. I’m enjoying this discussion. We all have a side right now let’s let that side be about the aviation discussion at hand. I asked nicely!