Dog bite diverts plane

steingar said:
Dogs are not wolves, and have significant genetic differences ....
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Then how come I know people with dog/wolf hybrids? They can't be that significant if they are still able to interbreed.
 
steingar said:
Dogs are not wolves, and have significant genetic differences that result in behavioral changes leading to domesticity. However, what Doggtyred said is utterly true. Dogs that attack people are improperly raised and conditioned. There is usually no reason whatsoever for them to attack other than the mistaken and ignorant actions of their owners.

Good example. The %^%$&&@!! toy poodle that bit me was then scooped up and petted by its owner. She reinforced this horrid behavior. If my dog did that he'd have his head pinned to the ground for his efforts, and he would remain that way until he submitted.

People hate yappy little dogs. I own one. He barks, it's his nature. He barks outside, it's time to come in, and he knows it. I don't like yappy little dogs either, and I won't let mine be one. Simple measures of control can make a dog's behavior far more acceptable.

The city/county comparison is just plain stupid. People in the city by and large don't use dogs as commercial entities, rather as pets and companions. Honestly, what sort of work is a dog supposed to do in an urban or suburban setting? Lots of people on farms also have dogs that are pets, and I've seen them drop some serious coin to keep them healthy.

And their are plenty of stupid people on farms who do lots of dumb stuff to dogs, just like there are in the city. Fewer in the country, because there are far fewer people in the country than the city.
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I don't feel like arguing with someone who came up with this gem:

Pet owner should be charged with something expensive. There is no reason whatsoever anyone's pet dog should bite anybody.
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steingar said:
Dogs are not wolves, and have significant genetic differences that result in behavioral changes leading to domesticity. However, what Doggtyred said is utterly true. Dogs that attack people are improperly raised and conditioned. There is usually no reason whatsoever for them to attack other than the mistaken and ignorant actions of their owners.
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Keep on believing that, you'll keep on being wrong.

This year I've dealt with over 400 dogs, everything from wolf hybrids down to purse dogs, most from worse conditions than your yappy dog will ever know. The only ones that have gone for me (it's been 2, I know how to act around dogs), there's been a good reason for it and I understood why.
 
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EdFred said:
Then how come I know people with dog/wolf hybrids? They can't be that significant if they are still able to interbreed.
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You can make hybrids of lions and tigers, horses and mules, and others. Just because two things can breed doesn't necessarily imply genetically similar behavior.
 
Just watched a Nat. Geo. documentary on Dogs. They indicated that dogs share 98% of their DNA with wolves. Dogs are unequivocally wolf descendants. Also interesting was the fact that through DNA the dog/wolf split can be traced back 10,000 years.
 
You share 98% of your DNA with chimpanzees. Should we put you in the zoo so you can throw your feces at everyone?
 
steingar said:
You share 98% of your DNA with chimpanzees. Should we put you in the zoo so you can throw your feces at everyone?
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Well, clearly those chimpanzees are just poorly trained. There is no reason for any chimpanzee to throw feces at anyone. Ever. :rolleyes2:
 
EdFred said:
Then how come I know people with dog/wolf hybrids? They can't be that significant if they are still able to interbreed.
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stagecoachco said:
Just watched a Nat. Geo. documentary on Dogs. They indicated that dogs share 98% of their DNA with wolves. Dogs are unequivocally wolf descendants. Also interesting was the fact that through DNA the dog/wolf split can be traced back 10,000 years.
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It doesn't take much of an DNA difference to be "significant". A single base change in DNA causes factor V Leiden, one cause of deep vein thrombosis (clotting). It's significant if you have the disease.
 
steingar said:
<SNIP>

The city/county comparison is just plain stupid. People in the city by and large don't use dogs as commercial entities, rather as pets and companions. Honestly, what sort of work is a dog supposed to do in an urban or suburban setting?<SNIP>
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Herd Canada geese to the corporate park across the street?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
It doesn't take much of an DNA difference to be "significant". A single base change in DNA causes factor V Leiden, one cause of deep vein thrombosis (clotting). It's significant if you have the disease.
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Sure, and the difference between cockroaches and lobsters is one chromosome.

So here would be my question: Look at my rottweiler vs. a wolf and look at my rottweiler vs. a Chihuahua. Discuss the genetic differences.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Sure, and the difference between cockroaches and lobsters is one chromosome.

So here would be my question: Look at my rottweiler vs. a wolf and look at my rottweiler vs. a Chihuahua. Discuss the genetic differences.
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One might argue that a Chihuahua is closer genetically to a rat than to a wolf.:wink2:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Sure, and the difference between cockroaches and lobsters is one chromosome.

So here would be my question: Look at my rottweiler vs. a wolf and look at my rottweiler vs. a Chihuahua. Discuss the genetic differences.
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I'm sorry- I don't understand what point you are making. Which species of cockroach and which species of lobster?

A difference of an entire chromosome is anywhere from 10,000 bases to a billion bases; this difference is enough to place an organism in a different family, much less differing genus and species.

The genetic differences between your dogs isn't simply in the genes, but their expression and regulation as well.

I suspect Mike is talking from a scientific point-of-view, where you are saying "they all breed- how different can they be". Those differences can be significant and the environment, including their training, is very important as well.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I suspect Mike is talking from a scientific point-of-view, where you are saying "they all breed- how different can they be". Those differences can be significant and the environment, including their training, is very important as well.
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Actually, I never said "they all breed, how different can they be." I was asking a question of how different they are genetically, because I don't know.

But the real point from my perspective is that behaviorally there are a lot of similarities. Proper training is key regardless of creature, but I've yet to see a bird who's been trained not to bite, and have the scars to prove it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Sure, and the difference between cockroaches and lobsters is one chromosome.

So here would be my question: Look at my rottweiler vs. a wolf and look at my rottweiler vs. a Chihuahua. Discuss the genetic differences.
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Ted, you should really stop arguing with a geneticist about genetics. You are in way over your head.

What difference does one chromosome make? Well, if you have an extra chromosome other than number 21, or the X or Y, you won't even make it out of the uterus. One chromosome means the difference between life and death. If you get an extra 21 (the smallest of the non-sex chromosomes) you have Downs Syndrome, and will not contribute that extra chromosome (or any other genetic information) to the next generation.

The difference between your Rotweiler and a wolf is domesticity. Wolves are not domesticated, and cannot do many of the mental tricks any dog can do. The difference between your Rotweiler and Chihuahua is more complex. Behaviorally, they are far more similar to each other than to a wolf. On the other hand, I would argue that they now represent different species. The definition of separate species is that they do not mate and make fertile offspring. Your Rotweiler could not easily produce offspring from a Chihuahua. If a male Rotweiler mated with a female Chihuahua, it is doubtful she could successfully carry a litter (though I only suppose this, and if someone knows I am wrong I will gladly admit it). A male Chihuahua cannot mate with a female Rotweiler. Certainly the cross could be done with IVF, but not with natural mating.

Hence what is genetically similar to what and what can mate with what are two very separate questions. Domestic dogs were at one point derived from and share tremendous genetic similarity to wolves. It is the differences that are important, however, just as it is the differences between us and the other primates that are important, despite the tremendous genetic similarity.
 
steingar said:
Ted, you should really stop arguing with a geneticist about genetics. You are in way over your head.
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I wasn't, I was asking a question that you took as an argument. But to that point, you shouldn't be arguing with someone who deals with dogs as much as I do (plus used to train and rehabilitate dogs with better success than anyone else at the facility) about dog behavior. Just knowing what you do about genetics does not mean you know what you think you do about behaviors. I'm done arguing with you on this.

Thank you for the genetic answers, provides some interesting info, and pretty much what I expected.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
Actually, I never said "they all breed, how different can they be." I was asking a question of how different they are genetically, because I don't know.

But the real point from my perspective is that behaviorally there are a lot of similarities. Proper training is key regardless of creature, but I've yet to see a bird who's been trained not to bite, and have the scars to prove it.
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Sorry I misunderstood you- I was trying to recast your question differently.

The genetic differences aren't enough to keep them from breeding, but the differences between a dog and wolf are probably greater than those between the the rottweiler and the chihuahua. Mike would be better able to answer this question than I. The genetic differences between wolves and dogs are sufficient to allow a pet in our environment that can be trained and an animal that would need to be put down after it became an adult.

The results of genetics, environment (including training), and behavior are difficult to separate from each other as to cause and effect.
 
I'm not sure what difference genetics makes in this discussion. A dog will bite if provoked. So would anyone here, I'll bet. Most of us consider ourselves somewhat domesticated too.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm not sure what difference genetics makes in this discussion. A dog will bite if provoked. So would anyone here, I'll bet. Most of us consider ourselves somewhat domesticated too.
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An animal with "docile" genes requires greater provocation before it bites. This relates to some of the discussion between wolves and dogs.
 
Everskyward said:
So do people with "docile" genes. :rofl:

But that doesn't mean it won't happen.
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Very true. I's just a matter of where the breaking point is. Someone was alluding to that earlier in the thread where they could get Mike's dog to bite him.
 
Any dog that is not insane can be trained not to bite without severe provocation, far more than someone interacting with its owner. This is an integral part of the pack behavior which is instinctive to dogs and is part of why they made excellent domestic pets. Because of this pack behavior they will recognize humans as the pack leader, which is one of the reasons they are so outstandingly loyal. Moreover, it provides them with an instinctive mechanism to recognize their own territory and where their scat should go. Non pack animals have a much harder time learning that concept, or are unable to do so.
 
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