Does Not Get It

arnoha

arnoha

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arnoha
After reading the close call thread, I thought I'd head over to ASRS site to read some local reports. I do that occasionally to see where the problem spots are around here and maybe figure out how to avoid them. Usually the narratives are well written and the pilots and controllers are very careful to look at things fairly objectively. I like that the anonymous, blame-free nature of an ASRS report seems to really bring out the best in people. Most of the time.

But not every time. I read this report. Holy hell, unless I'm really missing something, this is a pilot who just Does Not Get It. I'll stop there and let the report speak for itself. (ACN: 1281346)

Time building for Commercial Pilot Certificate. Issue happened on the way back trip from SQL. Early morning departure engine is running, ready for IFR clearance. Calling Clearance Deliver for clearance multiple times, but no answer is received. My phone was off and I have tried to call other approach frequencies, but no one answers. Calling CTAF in the SQL to ask guys if they know another frequency for clearance delivery. One guy replied that the tower will open at 7am. But my decision was to pick up airborne-clearance. On an initial climb runway 30 departure leg and when I passed pattern altitude, I switched radio from CTAF to Oakland Approach and tried to call them again to "check in". ATC replied: "[Aircraft X] Stand By! remain outside of class B airspace". I was still climbing and did not know where specifically to go. I knew that SQL is located within class B airspace, even though airport itself was class D. That is why I was in rush to pick a clearance or request and receive assistance to guide me through airspace without touching class B. I was trying to find a gap on frequency to speak with him and tell him that I need assistance to stay away of B. And the reason why I was not able to manage it myself is because of the increased workload to a single pilot being very low and flying in very busy congested airspace. I looked at my chart and try to figure out where am I in relation to class B airspace and then what altitude to remain on and which heading to fly, but still it was hard for me to look down on chart because I felt unprotected in airspace, that is why I decided to fly the airplane in first place and wait for ATC to call me or find a gap and talk to him. At approximately 1,500feet-1,900 feet I found a short gap and call him again for assistance. ATC replied: "[Aircraft X] Stand By! remain outside of class B airspace". I remember that the frequency start to be busy again and I could not talk to him back. I started to circle and still figuring out where to go and having hope that ATC gonna get back to me and help me. I remember that I was approximately at 2,300 feet when I made my [third] call and ATC replied: "I told you to remain outside of class B airspace! Now turn to the East immediately". Upon my compliance he said to me to copy a phone number and call it upon arrival. He said that I entered class B airspace without clearance. Rest of my flight was very normal and I made it safely. Upon my arrival I charged my phone and called that number. I spoke with person representing San Fransisco TRACON. The person said that a report needed to be filed and asked my personal information, where I respectfully declined it and I said that I need a legal advice from attorney and then that I'll call them back. Today after conversation with my attorney I called them and gave them all of my information in case they gonna file letter of investigation.

SUMMARY:
1. Calling for clearance on the ground, but we did not established communication
2. Calling airborne without yet busting any airspace, ATC constantly replies Stand By.
3. I could have wait until the tower will open in 30 minutes, I could look for someone on an "empty field" and ask them to call an approach or FSS for me to get clearance. But I did not do it. Because I was not comfortable doing it. I looked positive to pick up an airborne clearance in this case. I did not expect of neglect ATC assistance. He saw me in a radar on initial call and further, but did not take care of me. He knew that I had filed the IFR flight plan and I need a clearance. But yet they give me their stand by's, not providing any vectors any suggestions, without giving any room to talk on a dynamic environment and then fearing me to file a report for pilot deviation. Like a punishment machine. You can't talk to them, you can't tell them to stand by, because they got very angry when you do so, especially if you fly small airplanes.

When people say that ATC there to provide assistance for us, pilots. In this case dose not seem like that at all. I am disagree that it is only my fault.
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Those are the people you gotta worry about.
 
:eek: my my where would I even begin! So I won't... :D

stupid is Forest Gump.jpeg
 
Obviously SQL is not in Class B airspace. It all goes downhill from there.
 
It is scary how many people have licenses that should not.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Sounds like the pilot is unable to objectively evaluate their own performance. That's a fatal failing in this business
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What really bothers me is that this seems to be someone aiming for a commercial pilot job. Which means the fatalities won't just be himself if he manages to get that far.
 
Non-native speaker and possibly therefore not overly familiar with atc procedures/airspace ?

Not in any way an excuse, just a question arising from the way the report is written.
 
Zeldman said:
I had a couple middle eastern students that would blame everyone but themselves.
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Yup me too, and even a couple student Iranian Air Force controllers. :eek:
None of them, pilots & controllers, turned out good.
 
Keep your head up,there's plenty of lackluster or un informed pilots out there.
 
Although English appears to not be native, English proficiency seems very good. I doubt language played any part in this at all.

I can't tell from the prose exactly where the writer may be from. My family being from the Middle East, I have familiarity with the errors that tend to be made and this doesn't ring quite true on that. Most of the foreign students around here are Chinese or Japanese. (There are both Chinese and Japanese airlines that have regional agreements to train here...I'm not just picking those two as a way of saying generically Asian. I think it's China East and ANA, but not 100% sure.) But that doesn't ring quite right from the prose, either.

I can't tell, and it really doesn't matter. I haven't personally witnessed a pilot with this level of ignorant entitlement, but I've seen it in other areas from basically every nationality, of course including raised-right-here Americans. Speculation on nationality here is pointless.
 
arnoha said:
Speculation on nationality here is pointless.
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Pointless, maybe, but I enjoy it. Fortunately, most of the students around here are Marines using their GI Bill benefits to get their license. Their American is real good and the non-compliant/overly stupid get filtered out with a BCD :)
 
Morgan3820 said:
Pointless, maybe, but I enjoy it. Fortunately, most of the students around here are Marines using their GI Bill benefits to get their license. Their American is real good and the non-compliant/overly stupid get filtered out with a BCD :)
Click to expand...

BCD?
 
I was flying today and when I taxied off the runway I noticed the Cessna 172 that landed before I did, sitting on another taxiway on the runway side of a hold short line. As I listened to ground control desperately trying to get the guy to pull up past the hold short line I saw a Southwest 737 on short final. I turned to my passenger and said, "dude, we just got a front row seat to a pilot deviation and a torqued controller." Sure enough the 737 went around and the heavy Asian accented pilot in the Cessna was given a phone number to call. The controller was very professional about it but I could tell he wanted to rip the guy's head off.
 
Wow. All that just to avoid a 30 minute delay for the tower to open? While I haven't tried to contact NorCal from the ground there, I find it really hard to believe they can't see Oakland FSS. It's directly across the Bay.
 
I wasn't familiar with the identifier or the airspace when I first read it. I just looked at the chart and am even more amazed. Avoiding the Class B looks pretty easy if he just looked at the chart and had half a clue and a plan.
 
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Dave Theisen said:
I wasn't familiar with the identifier or the airspace when I first read it. I just looked at the chart and even more amazed. Avoiding the Class B looks pretty easy if he just looked at the chart and had half a clue and a plan.
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I fly there all the time. Follow the parallel highway southeast at 1400 or below, and you're fine.

I think it's obvious this guy didn't have -- or maybe didn't understand -- a chart and was going to rely on a clearance to take care of his airspace.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I wasn't familiar with the identifier or the airspace when I first read it. I just looked at the chart and even more amazed. Avoiding the Class B looks pretty easy if he just looked at the chart and had half a clue and a plan.
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No kidding stay west of the field, fly south, don't creep up above 4k until you're at 21DME (accommodate slant range and some safety factor). This sounds like he was under the impression that he was confusing IFR clearance issued by FSS with a Bravo clearance. While I'm not proficient with ops from satellite airports within a B surface area, which this is not, he got there somehow so should have been able to ask the last B controller how to get out or any number of other solutions including just reading the AIM.
 
airheadpenguin said:
No kidding stay west of the field, fly south, don't creep up above 4k until you're at 21DME (accommodate slant range and some safety factor). This sounds like he was under the impression that he was confusing IFR clearance issued by FSS with a Bravo clearance. While I'm not proficient with ops from satellite airports within a B surface area, which this is not, he got there somehow so should have been able to ask the last B controller how to get out or any number of other solutions including just reading the AIM.
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SQL is under class B, not in it, so he could have gotten in without talking to a class B controller. (Although if he had done that, it seems like he would have known where the non-B airspace was.)
 
Probably got in while talking to the SQL tower and if he was at TPA he was under the bravo shelf. Tower was closed when he left.

He seems clueless about his own responsibilities. He had a chart. Amazing he didn't have enough sense to look at it while he was still on the ground.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
found this, I guess he missed it?
- FOR CD WHEN ATCT CLSD CTC NORCAL APCH AT 916-361-3829.
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He didn't even know tower was closed until someone on CTAF told him. He hadn't done any basic homework - just kicked the tires and lit the fire.
 
Just for giggles, I thought I'd try to find the mistakes. I'm not IR, so I'm likely to make my own mistakes on those parts.
  1. Did not read the AF/D entry on SQL to know services available and when.
  2. There is no Clearance Delivery at SQL. Did he mean Ground, or was he calling over to OAK or SFO?
  3. One does not call random approach frequencies from the ground to get a clearance. (Told this is not actually true and is a valid procedure.)
  4. Apparently needless impatience.
  5. CTAF is not an information service.
  6. Does not understand that his filed plan starts at SQL, and not in the air. The airborne clearance will be different. (Not true? I clearly don't understand this one.)
  7. There is no Oakland Approach. This was only a couple years ago...it was definitely NORCAL.
  8. Can't "check in" as a first call. He wasn't in the system yet.
  9. Did not plan for VFR portion of flight before IFR clearance.
  10. Does not realize his flight is currently VFR?
  11. Does not seem to understand that under Bravo is not the same as in Bravo.
  12. Believes ATC is there to help him navigate.
  13. Does not know where the edges of the surrounding airspace are.
  14. Screws up aviate-navigate-communicate and attempts to communicate before navigating.
  15. Fails to remain outside of Bravo when without a Bravo clearance.
  16. There is no San Francisco TRACON. It's NORCAL.
  17. Felt he was entitled to be "taken care of" by ATC.
  18. Feels it's OK to depend on random other pilots for kindness to ensure his safety.
  19. ATC cannot magically divine that a 1200 squawk has an IFR plan on file and what "needs" that pilot has.
  20. Believes ATC exists to provide "assistance" to pilots. (The magic word is "separation" and even that has qualifiers.)
  21. Depended on the best possible outcome instead of planning for the worst case.
  22. ATC does not care how big the plane you fly is.
  23. You can tell ATC to stand by. Not for every response, but it is pretty common.
  24. Believes ATC is quick to anger and wants to generate violations.
That's from a direct reading. I could certainly start to analyze it down further. It would be comical if it weren't so dangerous.
 
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arnoha said:
Just for giggles, I thought I'd try to find the mistakes. I'm not IR, so I'm likely to make my own mistakes on those parts.
  1. Did not read the AF/D entry on SQL to know services available and when.
  2. There is no Clearance Delivery at SQL. Did he mean Ground, or was he calling over to OAK or SFO?
  3. One does not call random approach frequencies from the ground to get a clearance.
  4. Apparently needless impatience.
  5. CTAF is not an information service.
  6. Does not understand that his filed plan starts at SQL, and not in the air. The airborne clearance will be different.
  7. There is no Oakland Approach. This was only a couple years ago...it was definitely NORCAL.
  8. Can't "check in" as a first call. He wasn't in the system yet.
  9. Did not plan for VFR portion of flight before IFR clearance.
  10. Does not realize his flight is currently VFR?
  11. Does not seem to understand that under Bravo is not the same as in Bravo.
  12. Believes ATC is there to help him navigate.
  13. Does not know where the edges of the surrounding airspace are.
  14. Screws up aviate-navigate-communicate and attempts to communicate before navigating.
  15. Fails to remain outside of Bravo when without a Bravo clearance.
  16. There is no San Francisco TRACON. It's NORCAL.
  17. Felt he was entitled to be "taken care of" by ATC.
  18. Feels it's OK to depend on random other pilots for kindness to ensure his safety.
  19. ATC cannot magically divine that a 1200 squawk has an IFR plan on file and what "needs" that pilot has.
  20. Believes ATC exists to provide "assistance" to pilots. (The magic word is "separation" and even that has qualifiers.)
  21. Depended on the best possible outcome instead of planning for the worst case.
  22. ATC does not care how big the plane you fly is.
  23. You can tell ATC to stand by. Not for every response, but it is pretty common.
  24. Believes ATC is quick to anger and wants to generate violations.
That's from a direct reading. I could certainly start to analyze it down further. It would be comical if it weren't so dangerous.
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A couple of these are not correct. You can sometimes get IFR clearances from Approach on the ground. That's how it's done at Watsonville, for instance. Generally, you try the frequency in the chart supplement. If there is a phone number, the radio probably doesn't work, and that's fairly common around the bay due to terrain. At a nontowered airport, all clearances start in the air, unless there is a SID to assign (there isn't at SQL -- instead, there is an optional procedure that takes off on 12 and blasts into Class B, terminating at SJC VOR). And Approach does know about your IFR flight plan. BUT, an airborne clearance can take a while, and you must be prepared to fly VFR until you have it.
 
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MAKG1 said:
A couple of these are not correct. You can sometimes get IFR clearances from Approach on the ground. That's how it's done at Watsonville, for instance. Generally, you try the frequency in the chart supplement. If there is a phone number, the radio probably doesn't work, and that's fairly common around the bay due to terrain. At a nontowered airport, all clearances start in the air, unless there is a SID to assign (there isn't at SQL -- instead, there is an optional procedure that takes off on 12 and blasts into Class B, terminating at SJC VOR). And Approach does know about your IFR flight plan. BUT, an airborne clearance can take a while, and you must be prepared to fly VFR until you have it.
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Thanks for the corrections. My understanding was that at a non-towered airport, you'd call for clearance on the phone and get a window to depart in. Help me out: how does it work if you have to depart directly into IMC from a non-towered field? Can't bomb around VFR in those conditions waiting for a clearance.
 
arnoha said:
Thanks for the corrections. My understanding was that at a non-towered airport, you'd call for clearance on the phone and get a window to depart in. Help me out: how does it work if you have to depart directly into IMC from a non-towered field? Can't bomb around VFR in those conditions waiting for a clearance.
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When I was at GTR in MS there was a remote frequency there to Columbus approach before they had a tower . You would call up and request your clearance, request FF, etc. If IFR flight plan, they'd give you your clearance and tell you to call for release. Once you've completed your run-up and ready to go, you call 'em back and they release you with a void time.
 
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