Does ADHD exist? Or is it a result of over-analyzing kids?

Is ADHD real? I'm not talking about other mental problems just ADHD

  • Yes

    Votes: 29 41.4%

  • No

    Votes: 41 58.6%
  • Total voters
    70
  • Poll closed .
D

docmirror

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http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/03/no-no-thing-adhd/

http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/03/ban-psychiatrically-diagnosing-drugging-children/

I don't know what these two guys are selling, if they are selling anything. But I've always been skeptical about the ADHD diagnosis. My skepticism was further fueled when my son got a 'diagnosis' of mild ADHD when he was in 2nd grade. Only to find out that the school got an added bump in state funding for each special needs kid they took in, and ADHD was at the top of the special needs category. I had a blistering talk with the principal and told them to never utter those letters again, and it better not be in any written communication with respect to my son.

Anyway, it's a bit of a slog to go through all the reading and some of the videos but if you have kids, you owe it to yourself to read and watch. If not, your kid will soon be identified as 'mild ADHD' and you can bet a prescription of mind-altering drugs is not far behind. We know what the aeromedical system does with that already.
 
I don't have evidence that ADHD doesn't exist ... I wouldn't be surprised if it was grossly overdiagnosed. But to say that not one person has ADHD might be a bit of stretch.
 
I think it does exist but Doctors really need to slow down on prescribing meds for ADHD/ADD cases. They are overprescribing/overevaluating.
 
Of course it does.

Sure, it may be over diagnosed in children, but to say it doesn't exist is incredibly ignorant.
 
I think what we call ADHD is just an overstimulated brain. We get so much thrown at us constantly that our brain gets tired and checks out. Add in homework, over stimulation by computer games, books, stress, bullying, parents, growing up, social responsibilities at a young age, etc.

I've got a working theory that this same over stimulation can persist well into the adult years and might be a major contributing cause to obesity and T2 diabetes. My working theory chain is: over stimulation/stress -> excess hormonal responses -> excess liver response -> poor blood sugar control -> cravings -> weight gain -> impaired insulin response -> diabetes.

It's a working theory...but I think it's basically sound. There are probably other factors which play into this, over stimulation is not the only path. But once you're at the end of the chain, cutting off the front is meaningless; remove the stimulation and stress and you're still overweight with poor insulin response.

There was a thread about a year ago about the French people's experience with ADHD...or their lack of it. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69741 Still a good read.
 
I won't deny that ADHD exists, but your point about making almost every kid a medical case is spot on. I would like to see kids eat a more balanced diet, truely exercise, sleep more consistently, and have some structure in their lives before considering putting them on a mind altering prescription. Even for those kids where the above doesn't work I would like to see some non-prescription ways of managing it tried before officially "diagnosing" them. When I was a kid we would do almost anything to keep from riding the short bus, but I suppose times have changed.
 
Just bad lazy parents and a greedy medical and educational system.


People forget that doctors are just like mechanics of any other skilled labor, no one is dumb enough to walk into a car dealer with a car and say, fix everything that you think is wrong with it, I agree with any suggestion you make.

Take charge of medical matters, if you don't want something or don't think you need it, just say so, and remeber its all about the money, lots of profit in drugs, tests and education.
 
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Yes. It exists but I am not sure it is a real problem.
It certainly doesn't need to be labeled on every kid that is hyper w/ a good imagination.

I was that kid and even as an adult, my mind churns on a hundred other things at once but I can control it. Hence the ability to fly planes. I don't need pills to control it. I was never given riddlin or anything and I just learned that I have to control it if I am going to execute a process successfully.

I have family members that need meds to control it and I think they have it worse then me.

But yeah, I think ADHD is real and I think it can be a good thing if you can control it. I come up with a lot of outside the box solutions to things because I don't stay inside the problem.

I just read what I typed and then picked up my guitar and started teaching myself the intro to "Hell's Bells" because ADHD reminded me of AC/DC. I bet without ADHD we wouldn't have AC/DC

Squirrel!!
 
I chalk up ADHD to be on par with gluten-free.

Some people have issues, 90+% probably don't
 
EdFred said:
I chalk up ADHD to be on par with gluten-free.

Some people have issues, 90+% probably don't
Click to expand...

And you have both issues. You are doomed.
You can't have Gluten but you keep getting distracted while looking for it on the ingredient list. Perfect storm.
 
If I would have been born 3 years later, I probably would have been labeled as ADHD.
 
Bob Noel said:
I don't have evidence that ADHD doesn't exist ... I wouldn't be surprised if it was grossly overdiagnosed. But to say that not one person has ADHD might be a bit of stretch.
Click to expand...

Logically, if you are looking for the absence of existence of something, you may be looking for a long, long time. ;)
 
docmirror said:
Logically, if you are looking for the absence of existence of something, you may be looking for a long, long time. ;)
Click to expand...

Are you saying I should stop looking for Big Foot, 20' tall pink elephants, and the Loch Ness monster?
 
EdFred said:
I chalk up ADHD to be on par with gluten-free.

Some people have issues, 90+% probably don't
Click to expand...

Pretty much, except I'd say the false positive rate is closer to 98 percent. I'd also put peanut allergies in the same category.

The fact that public schools get extra subsidies for every kid they diagnose and drug is the biggest reason for the rate of over diagnosis in the case of ADHD.

Rich
 
They exists in the form of a label. Society, especially the psychiatric community love to label things, ADD, ADHD, PTSD, ect... and then the drug companies like to manufacture the fix for those conditions and sell them as treatments.

To each their own but I am highly against putting my own kids on any type of medication.
 
EdFred said:
I chalk up ADHD to be on par with gluten-free.

Some people have issues, 90+% probably don't
Click to expand...

This sums it up. Most human behaviors fall along a bell shaped curve, with the majority being at the apex of the curve and minority at the outliers. Often there really is something biologically wrong with the outliers, i.e. there are cases of ADHD where treatment will substantially help the individual. My guess is the ADHC diagnosis has crept up the curve toward the middle in response to monetary concerns.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I won't deny that ADHD exists, but your point about making almost every kid a medical case is spot on. I would like to see kids eat a more balanced diet, truely exercise, sleep more consistently, and have some structure in their lives before considering putting them on a mind altering prescription. Even for those kids where the above doesn't work I would like to see some non-prescription ways of managing it tried before officially "diagnosing" them.
Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%.

There are kids & adults that really benefit from the meds, but I believe all the other avenues of treatment should be exhausted before going that route -especially with children. Children thrive in structured environments, so getting them on a regular schedule with enough sleep, exercise, and proper food, in addition to consistent parenting (rules don't change from day to day), goes far with treatment for ADHD symptoms. Won't fix everybody, but if the parents are consistent with this, we have seen it work with many of the kids at our counseling agency.

But you can do all these things with some kids, and they still need the meds to function. I would say that is rare though.
 
"It's for the children."


:rolleyes:
 
Mrs. SixPapaCharlie said:
Children thrive in structured environments....
Click to expand...

A bit OT, but I hear people saying that a lot. I have no data or anything to dispute it with, just the memory of hating just about every structured activity, bedtime, routine, etc when I was a kid. I always just wanted to go my own way by the time I was around 11 or 12 and I never really lost that independent way of doing things. I'm still pretty happy with it...
 
Yes, it exists. But I think it's improperly labeled as a dysfunction. It's just a different way for the brain to work. It doesn't work well in a classroom setting, but it can be really advantageous in other environments.

Here's my quick story. My daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. It was considered mild and my wife and I elected to manage it without meds. It was difficult, but she was getting by.

Once she hit fifth grade, it became too much. Her confidence in her academic abilities was plummeting. I knew how smart she was. I had seen her test scores. At the same time, it started affecting her relationship with us. Every night was us pushing her to finish her homework with escalating frustration on both sides.

So, we took the advice of our pediatrician and started her on the lowest available dose of an ADHD medication. Her first medicated day at school, we forgot to tell her teacher that we were trying this. About halfway through the day, the teacher calls my wife and tells her that my daughter is having an amazing day, as if a light came on. That was big positive reinforcement for our tough decision.

About 2 months later, I take her to breakfast and forget to give her the medication before I drop her off. Again, the teacher calls my wife about halfway through the day and tells her that my daughter has slipped back into old habits, seems spaced out and isn't getting her work done. Not good news, but again, reinforcement for our decision.

Fast forward to now...she's making great grades at a very difficult private school, enjoys studying and gets her work done without being asked. Her favorite subjects are the ones where she once struggled so much...math and Latin. Her confidence has returned and, as a result, she's become more outgoing and is making more friends. I couldn't be happier with our decision to allow her to take the meds (she had a say in the decision), and I was very much a skeptic heading in to this experience.

I hate that it's labeled a disease or abnormality. It's just that she has a brain that's always multitasking. That doesn't work when you're supposed to sit still and listen to a teacher talk for an hour. But it works really well when she's out of the classroom. In fact, our doctor has told us that this is really just a classroom issue and that once she's out of that environment, she'll probably stop the medication as she'll realize little benefit.

So, that's my experience. I have no doubt that it's a real issue and I'm really pleased that we made the decision that we did.
 
Amazing that Latin is still taught somewhere! I read a very interesting book called Climbing Parnassus that makes a really good case for classical education, and attributes a lot of civilization's downward slide to the lack of it. You are right that your daughter may one day be off the medication. Our daughter took herself off eventually. She was, and has been since, very successful academically.

cowman said:
A bit OT, but I hear people saying that a lot. I have no data or anything to dispute it with, just the memory of hating just about every structured activity, bedtime, routine, etc when I was a kid. I always just wanted to go my own way by the time I was around 11 or 12 and I never really lost that independent way of doing things. I'm still pretty happy with it...
Click to expand...
That is called "oppositional." Not necessarily related to "structure." I take structure to mean some kind of limit as opposed to complete freedom. Small children need limits to feel safe. If you put a child in an unbounded area, he/she will limit their scope of exploration to a small center space; if you put a child in a fenced area, he/she will tend to explore the whole area, up to all the fences. If a child feels unsafe, their world becomes smaller and more threatening. They will have trust issues. This often happens when parents are either neglectful or fail to see that the boundaries they are setting are inadequate for a particular child.






 
The classical education has worked really well for our kids. We absolutely love the school.
 
steingar said:
This sums it up. Most human behaviors fall along a bell shaped curve, with the majority being at the apex of the curve and minority at the outliers. Often there really is something biologically wrong with the outliers, i.e. there are cases of ADHD where treatment will substantially help the individual. My guess is the ADHC diagnosis has crept up the curve toward the middle in response to monetary concerns.
Click to expand...
I'm going to agree with this only I will expand it to say that I think that many impulses and behaviors, even in the normal range, are affected by biology, more than we would probably like to admit. On the other hand that does not mean that slight deviations from "normal" should be medicated away or diagnosed as a disease.
 
Becky said:
That is called "oppositional." Not necessarily related to "structure." I take structure to mean some kind of limit as opposed to complete freedom. Small children need limits to feel safe. If you put a child in an unbounded area, he/she will limit their scope of exploration to a small center space; if you put a child in a fenced area, he/she will tend to explore the whole area, up to all the fences. If a child feels unsafe, their world becomes smaller and more threatening. They will have trust issues. This often happens when parents are either neglectful or fail to see that the boundaries they are setting are inadequate for a particular child.
Click to expand...

I don't know that I would call it oppositional, but only because I see kids with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, and that is a whole other category itself, and one of the hardest I find to treat.

That being said, I completely agree with your write-up about structure. When I use the term structure, I don't mean rigidity. People (even kids) have to learn to roll with the punches to some extent, meaning the kids don't have to be in bed at 8pm on the dot 365 days a year. But they should know the standard rules of the house, and that the parents will enforce them consistently. At my agency, we see a lot of parents that will let things slide one day, only to come down way harsh on the same action the very next week. This leaves the kids confused, and, as Becky mentioned, feeling unsafe. Which often leads to acting out behaviors, as they try to figure out where the true boundaries actually lie.
 
steingar said:
This sums it up. Most human behaviors fall along a bell shaped curve, with the majority being at the apex of the curve and minority at the outliers. Often there really is something biologically wrong with the outliers, i.e. there are cases of ADHD where treatment will substantially help the individual. My guess is the ADHC diagnosis has crept up the curve toward the middle in response to monetary concerns.
Click to expand...
I agree with this, but there's a complicating factor, namely that the meds for ADHD improve performance in "normal" kids as well, which is part of why they're in such demand on college campuses. So a positive response to treatment can't be taken as confirmatory that the child actually has the disease.

I'm honestly not certain that this diagnosis is real, in the sense of being a bonafide brain disorder, except maybe in some extreme cases, and I have no idea how to distinguish those from people who are just a couple sigma away from the mean.
 
James331 said:
Just bad lazy parents and a greedy medical and educational system.
Click to expand...

I would add that it is with the wholehearted support of a VERY LAZY educational lobby that LOVES to have kids diangosed with siomething - anything - then DEMAND more money to take care of those poor disabled children, while doing nothing of the sort.
 
ADHD = TOTAL SCAM........

As previously posted... Schools loved it because it enhanced the funding for their obsolete cesspool of teaching....
 
docmirror said:
http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/03/no-no-thing-adhd/

http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/03/ban-psychiatrically-diagnosing-drugging-children/

I don't know what these two guys are selling, if they are selling anything. But I've always been skeptical about the ADHD diagnosis. My skepticism was further fueled when my son got a 'diagnosis' of mild ADHD when he was in 2nd grade. Only to find out that the school got an added bump in state funding for each special needs kid they took in, and ADHD was at the top of the special needs category. I had a blistering talk with the principal and told them to never utter those letters again, and it better not be in any written communication with respect to my son.

Anyway, it's a bit of a slog to go through all the reading and some of the videos but if you have kids, you owe it to yourself to read and watch. If not, your kid will soon be identified as 'mild ADHD' and you can bet a prescription of mind-altering drugs is not far behind. We know what the aeromedical system does with that already.
Click to expand...


I've always considered it a sign of a misdirected society.
 
azure said:
I agree with this, but there's a complicating factor, namely that the meds for ADHD improve performance in "normal" kids as well, which is part of why they're in such demand on college campuses. So a positive response to treatment can't be taken as confirmatory that the child actually has the disease.

I'm honestly not certain that this diagnosis is real, in the sense of being a bonafide brain disorder, except maybe in some extreme cases, and I have no idea how to distinguish those from people who are just a couple sigma away from the mean.
Click to expand...

Meth, HGH, Steroids, etc all also increase "performance"

Some of the best artists were on all sorts of trippy drugs

Honestly I don't see much of a diffence between buying drugs from a doctor or a dealer, it's all bad for you and all mostly used for the same reasons.

Personally I'd pass.
 
It's all about selling drugs anyway, the more kids you can put on a prescription the better.

However you want to be careful what you wish for. Most of the drugs are speed, and a society on speed is not a good place to be.
 
OverTQ said:
Of course it does.

Sure, it may be over diagnosed in children, but to say it doesn't exist is incredibly ignorant.
Click to expand...

That it exists there is no doubt, the question that goes unasked is, "Is it a defect?" Should we be trying to limit it, or should we be selecting those people for programs that advance at their pace and provide the opportunities to put that hyper-ness to use?:dunno:

The problem with having a single standard egalitarian society is that all common services have to be directed to include the lowest common denominator. Hyper kids lose interest in that system and cause problems.
 
The REAL question that should be asked is: IF it exists at all, like so many other things the government shoves its nose into, is it a bad thing?

Is a warmer planet a bad thing? Other than people who seem to have something to gain, financially, off of saying yes, I haven't seen anything to make me think so.

Is private ownership of guns a bad thing? Only in the minds of people who will not rest until America is JUST LIKE north korea.

Is drinking a 20 ounce soda a bad thing? Only for a parasite progressive mayor, and his city of idiots.

Is looking at a magazine where an ad is printed showing a hunting rifle a bad thing? Only in the minds of MORONS masquerading as teachers.

Is chewing your pop tart into a shape that might be reminiscent of the shape of a gun like object, but only if you have a really pathetic agenda, a bad thing? Only to pathetic, stupid tax payer paid morons, that think whatever they are told to think, and nothing else.

Is vote fraud a bad thing? Only to people who value honest elections, of which democrats seems to not be.

Is obamacare a good thing? Only to people who live for a government that rules their every thought.

The question isn't about allowing parasitic members of the academic community to drug your kids, till they're stoned out of their minds, for more tax payer funds: It's - is government or the government controlled medical community intervention a good thing?
 
RJM62 said:
Pretty much, except I'd say the false positive rate is closer to 98 percent. I'd also put peanut allergies in the same category.

The fact that public schools get extra subsidies for every kid they diagnose and drug is the biggest reason for the rate of over diagnosis in the case of ADHD.

Rich
Click to expand...

Right; follow the money.

For those out there like me who are of a "certain age", do you remember EVER having friends and classmates with a "peanut allergy", or ever even hearing of a kid who couldn't be in the same building as a single peanut?
 
I have two daughters, one has ADD, one does not. The one with ADD is the younger of the two. I refer to her as a human border collie. She was diagnosed as being ADD by her fifth grade teacher, in response to her falling grades. Apparently, that's a very common time for that to happen, as their classwork starts to become more demanding. Naturally, we were upset, and didn't want to medicate her, but nothing else was working, so that's what we tried, and her grades improved almost immediately.

Now, for those of you who think its lazy parenting, please tell me why it is that the older child has never had this issue. Trust me on this, they get the same parenting, live in the same house, have gone to the same schools, and dance at the same studio. She doesn't take her medication (Adderall) on the weekend, and I can tell you she behaves very differently Her follow thorough on basic household tasks is not good, although we do manage to get her to do her homework, but it can be a bit of a struggle.

For those of you "follow the money" folks, she was diagnosed by her teacher, who is a public employee and has no financial incentives. All this meant to her was some extra work. The school system does not get extra money for ADD children, much of the time, they don't even know which ones have been diagnosed as such. The diagnosis was confirmed by her pediatrician, who is her regular doctor. We called him and made the appointment, he had no control over who we chose, and received his standard fee for that sort thing. The only party in this chain that has made any substantial amount of money is the drug maker, who has no part in the decision making process.

Why is this diagnosis appearing now? For one thing, we're asking more of more children, we're trying to get more kids performing at a high level. Look at how selective many of the big state schools have become. When I was applying to colleges, the University of Florida, which was my home state's school, was a backup. Now it's a selective university. How about a really selective place, like Stanford? Half of the applicants to Stanford are their class valedictorians, and most of them don't get in. We all want the best for our children, and when something stands in the way of their success, we do our best to overcome it. Years ago, when someone wasn't all that good of a student, no one worried about it all that much, if they wanted to go to college, they'd get in somewhere, and if they didn't, fine, there were other things to do for a living. Nowadays, most of us don't accept that.
 
EVERY child is a different parenting experience. I will never understand actual adults that think one size fits all when it comes to individual children.

Just because you got what you consider the best out of one child, means absolutely nothing when comparing the next one.

People are ALL individuals.

Thinking they're not is a set up for disappointment, and possibly for unnecessary drugs, but only an actual doctor could tell for sure.

As for pretending that the teacher acted only in the best interests of your child is a farce. Schools receive significant extra funding every time they manage to get a child stoned on ADD drugs.

Follow the money and many answers become clear...
 
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Florida Cracker said:
I would add that it is with the wholehearted support of a VERY LAZY educational lobby that LOVES to have kids diangosed with siomething - anything - then DEMAND more money to take care of those poor disabled children, while doing nothing of the sort.
Click to expand...


ADD kids are not in any way, shape, or form considered to be special needs. They aren't given any special treatment, have no dedicated teachers, and are certainly not considered disabled. It gets diagnosed, hopefully it gets treated, but the school system doesn't treat them any differently than any non-ADD child.
 
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