Does a failed annual cancel out the last annual even if inside 12 months?

50kttailwind

50kttailwind

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50kttailwind
I saw a hypothetical come up. Potential buyer goes full annual on a plane that is for sale. The A&P finds an issue that needs to be fixed in order to pass annual. The last, successful annual was done less than 12 months ago.

If the owner say no and wants to fly it away, is he still legal and covered by being in annual from the last one?

I tried to find a reg covering this, but I came up short.
 
Once a pilot or aircraft owner is aware a plane is un-airworthy, that's it.

Aircraft for sale should go through a "pre-buy" inspection rather than an annual inspection. Ironically a pre-buy inspection is oftentimes more rigorous than an annual, and can stop the process at any point in the pre-buy inspection. Depends what the buyer has requested to investigate.

Un-airworthy is un-airworthy, regardless of how it was discovered.
 
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There are some conditions that make an aircraft unairworthy that don’t preclude getting a ferry permit to fly back to the home base.
 
Also I’m told a potential buyer supposedly can’t do an “annual” on the plane. Only the owner makes entries in its logbook. They can do a prebuy but can’t “annual” a plane. That being said - if something is found that makes it unairworthy they supposedly need to take that in to account.
 
“needs to be fixed in order to pass annual” pretty vague. Is the plane airworthy or not.
 
50kttailwind said:
If the owner say no and wants to fly it away, is he still legal and covered by being in annual from the last one?
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Will depend on how the mechanic signs off the work for the 2nd "annual." If he signs it per 43.11 as an "annual with discrepancies" then the 1st annual is no longer in effect regardless of time remaining. If he signs it as a 100 hr or prebuy then the 1st annual is in effect. 91.409 states "within the preceding 12 calendar months."
Anthem said:
Also I’m told a potential buyer supposedly can’t do an “annual” on the plane.
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A buyer can perform whatever the owner permits. However if the buyer performs more work than authorized by the owner that is a different matter and a screw up on the owner for letting it happen.
Anthem said:
Only the owner makes entries in its logbook
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FYI: the owner is responsible for ensuring the writeups are enterred into the maintenance record. The maintenance provider is required to make those entries in the record. Part 43 and 91 have the references.
NordicDave said:
Un-airworthy is un-airworthy, regardless of how it was discovered.
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Keep in mind airworthy is subjective to the person making the determination. In general, there is no rule that prevents one mechanic making a different determination than another. Without more info on the OP example hard to add more.
 
I'm about to relist my Mooney, and I have this worry. I think the answer is the aircraft doesn't go remote for an annual. If someone wants an annual I don't mind, but their mechanic is going to do it in my hangar or a nearby shop I trust. No way will I go remote for an inspection or an annual.
 
Not airworthy is subjective. When done pre-buy it’s unlikely the inspecting mechanic made logbook entries. The prospective buyer has every right to seek a second opinion. Condition to fly it is ultimately the pilot’s decision as long as the logs are legal.
 
Bell206 said:
Will depend on how the mechanic signs off the work for the 2nd "annual." If he signs it per 43.11 as an "annual with discrepancies" then the 1st annual is no longer in effect regardless of time remaining. If he signs it as a 100 hr or prebuy then the 1st annual is in effect. 91.409 states "within the preceding 12 calendar months."
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Yes, so it's probably a good idea to have the mechanic prepare a sticker for the logbook rather than having him write directly into it. That way the sticker can be reviewed and the exact entry discussed, edited, and agreed upon before it gets pasted into the record.
 
If a mechanic performs an annual, they’re going to either put in the logs “approved for return to service”, or just not put anything, right?

Nobody puts in the logs “this plane is grounded”. So, if the previous annual is still valid, the decision to fly it would be on the pilot, no?
 
But then you would be in a position of flying a plane with known deficiencies.
 
steingar said:
I think the answer is the aircraft doesn't go remote for an annual. If someone wants an annual I don't mind, but their mechanic is going to do it in my hangar or a nearby shop I trust. No way will I go remote for an inspection or an annual.
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I let an airplane go remote for an annual once and it worked out well, but I knew the mechanic. The agreement we had was that I would pay for any airworthiness issues, but anything else was on the buyer if he wanted them fixed and I had to approve in case he backed out of the deal. The biggest issue he found was someone had made the kick panels out of old street signs and covered them with leather!
 
dans2992 said:
If a mechanic performs an annual, they’re going to either put in the logs “approved for return to service”, or just not put anything, right?
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No. I the case of an annual, there are 2 record entry options available per Part 43 as follows:
“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with annual inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.” Or, “I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with annual inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.” So there will be an entry made by the mechanic.
dans2992 said:
Nobody puts in the logs “this plane is grounded”. So, if the previous annual is still valid, the decision to fly it would be on the pilot, no?
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There's nothing to prevent someone from entering "aircraft is grounded." However, it would be rare in recreational Part 91 ops vs say Part 135, etc. ops. However, if one of the above Part 43 annual write-ups were entered then the previous annual would null and void. So if the pilot flew with a "list of discrepancies" in his pocket, it would be his decision to fly an unairworthy aircraft without an SFP.
Half Fast said:
That way the sticker can be reviewed and the exact entry discussed, edited, and agreed upon before it gets pasted into the record.
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My answer was in context to the original question. If the mechanic had signed for an actual annual then not much to discuss, edit, or agree to on the write up. Whether the entry is on a sticker or whatever, that would be solely up to the owner and not the mechanic.
 
The mechanic can hand the owner his entry (sticker)....and the owner can decide where it goes.....;)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
The mechanic can hand the owner his entry (sticker)....and the owner can decide where it goes.....;)
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So long as the owner accepts stickers. While not common there are owners who do not and its the owners prerogative what format the maintenance record takes. Usually its the owner requesting a sticker and the mechanic wanting to write in the book. Regardless there's guidance on this.;)
 
Bell206 said:
My answer was in context to the original question. If the mechanic had signed for an actual annual then not much to discuss, edit, or agree to on the write up.
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On a few occasions I have needed the mechanic to correct an erroneous p/n, or found he had swapped two digits on the tach reading, or similar. Much easier and cleaner to print a new sticker.

It hasn’t happened yet, but if we disagreed over whether an item was an airworthiness issue we could discuss it, look at a reference, maybe get another opinion, and hopefully resolve it before the sticker went in. So far differing opinions have been settled before we were at the logbook stage.
 
Half Fast said:
Much easier and cleaner to print a new sticker.
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True. But there are some entries that need to follow certain guidance which limits the discussion or editing outside of correcting errors. I've had owners who did not agree with my verbiage on occasion and it took showing them the requirements for them to finally understand.
 
I would never allow an unknown mechanic to make entries in my planes logbook. They can do a prebuy - period. If the new owner upon closing wants to convert it to an annual that’s between him and the mechanic and what they agree to do AFTER closing. There are too many unscrupulous business practices out there that to trust anyone to make entries would be borderline stupid. The mechanic and buyer could be colluding to mark it unairworthy at a field you can’t get out of to lower the price of a sale. Sorry - not happening. My plane my logs
 
Bell206 said:
True. But there are some entries that need to follow certain guidance which limits the discussion or editing outside of correcting errors. I've had owners who did not agree with my verbiage on occasion and it took showing them the requirements for them to finally understand.
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There is no mandatory entry from your shop.....you can provide your input, but the owner makes the final decision. Even if you give it back to him in a box....nothing is required for you. You don't get to condemn or mutilate his plane.

Now...if he wants it returned to service then that's another issue.

There is a Cherokee that I started the annual....and found a crease on the underside of the wing. I didn't get too far into it but found damage. The owner, to this day, doesn't know what happened. But it appears that he taxied over a fence post. I helped him get a ferry permit to fly it to a shop for repairs. What happened after that....I don't know. I didn't have to make a mark in his log book....even with what I did. The next guy will do that.
 
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Here's my take on the OP question. An annual inspection is just an inspection and it is good for one year. The annual is a snapshot in time. An aircraft has to have been inspected within the previous 12 months for it to be legal to fly provided it is airworthy at the time of the flight. The A&P with IA that signs the logbook either finds the aircraft is airworthy or he gives the owner a list of discrepancies that he considers unairworthy. The inspection is complete either way and is good for one year. If the inspection was completed one month after the previous annual, the aircraft will need an inspection after the twelve months of the latest inspection has expired--the previous annual is rendered moot. In order for the aircraft to be legally flown it has to be "airworthy." Whether a discrepancy that makes an aircraft unairworthy is noted during an annual, a 100 hour, a prebuy, or during a preflight, the second an owner/operator is made aware of the existence of a discrepancy that renders an aircraft unairworthy, the aircraft is illegal to operate. Fix the discrepancy(ies) log the actions taken, and the aircraft is considered airworthy when an authorized person signs the return to service. For a standard category aircraft to be legally airworthy it has to conform to its type certificate or be in a properly altered condition (eg STCs) AND be in a safe condition for flight. Experimentals don't get annual inspections because they have no type certificate to conform to so they can't be "airworthy" in the legal sense, Instead, an experimental aircraft gets "condition" inspection to check that it is in a safe condition for flight. An A&P does not "ground" unairworthy aircraft. Unairworthy discrepancies "ground" an aircraft. It's the owner/operator's responsibility to resolve unairworthy discrepancies and have the aircraft returned to service by someone authorized to do so,
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I didn't have to make a mark in his log book....even with what I did.
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Checkout_my_Six said:
The next guy will do that.
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FYI: all maintenance requires a record entry. 43.9(a) plainly states this which even applies to those without a certificate. The approval for return to service is merely the final or 4th part to this rule and does not exempt the first 3 parts. Does an owner who receives their aircraft in a “box” or a mechanic who starts and finishes a project worry about this detail? Doubtful. But in certain circumstances the lack of a record for previous maintenance has bit the unsuspecting owner and mechanic with additional costs/issues for the owner and for the mechanic possible suspension of his certificate for a spell. It is what it is my friend. Your choice. ;)
 
The only time my logs were with someone working on my plane was the pre-buy, and that was because the plane was delivered with them inside. All other maintenance, the logs stay at home and a sticker is supplied to me. For Annual, I supply a PDF copy of the logs so the A&P/IA can look for anything they need to verify.
 
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