Do you think night flying should require a sing-off?

I get perfect greasers when doing my 3 currency full stops alone at night. Seriously, they are some of my best landings. Smooth air, light winds, no bumps!
 
Re: Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

I do too except when i have a passenger. I think it's conspiracy!


Just kidding, carrier landings become the norm at night for me.

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On calm nights, I'll roll out t the end and depart opposite direction. Makes three landings much quicker, no taxiing required, and provides variety.

Or hop over to a nearby field.
 
As far as JFK Jr. he falls into the trouble the way most people do, not that he couldn't fly on instruments but he hadn't realized WHEN he needed to fly on instruments. Here he was in a long flight up the shore which had nice visual reference. He then descends and turns out over the ocean to make his approach into the airport and loses everything. Not very high up, you've got very limited time to realize you're lost it and recover from the attitude you end up in.
 
I would be okay maybe adding on a stipulation that if a pilot is exercising his/her flying privileges at night (X number of hours logged), then the BFR ought to be done at night. For those pilots who choose to stick with day VFR, then there is no need to bother with additional requirements.

Maybe this is a terrible idea... but it would be even worse if I typed this idea out in song. Your speakers would shatter.
 
This is nuts! There's more than enough regulation already. If you're afraid to fly at night, then don't. But don't impose your fears on me. Next thing you know, no one will be able to leave the vicinity of the airport without multiengine certificate, instrument rating and an MEI/CFII in the right seat, but turbines are required to go near mountains.

Get a grip, get some training if you want it, then GO FLY!!
 
Re: Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

Didn't JFK Jr. Have an autopilot? Seems to me if he felt he had any problems he should have the autopilot do bulk of the flying, not like he couldn't afford all the avionics he wanted
 
Hank S said:
This is nuts! There's more than enough regulation already. If you're afraid to fly at night, then don't. But don't impose your fears on me. Next thing you know, no one will be able to leave the vicinity of the airport without multiengine certificate, instrument rating and an MEI/CFII in the right seat, but turbines are required to go near mountains.

Get a grip, get some training if you want it, then GO FLY!!
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Thank you Hank.

Some people have this thing about needing to regulate other people's conduct, whether a problem exists or not. I've long suspected there's a bit of projection taking place.
 
Hank S said:
This is nuts! There's more than enough regulation already. If you're afraid to fly at night, then don't. But don't impose your fears on me. Next thing you know, no one will be able to leave the vicinity of the airport without multiengine certificate, instrument rating and an MEI/CFII in the right seat, but turbines are required to go near mountains.

Get a grip, get some training if you want it, then GO FLY!!
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Hear hear
 
midlifeflyer said:
Some people have this thing about needing to regulate other people's conduct, whether a problem exists or not.
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Agreed. Another way of looking at it, oft heard from those with a libertarian bent: Not every good idea makes for a good law (or governmental regulation).
 
Hank S said:
Get a grip, get some training if you want it, then GO FLY!!
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It's really that simple. I did the bare minimum on my PPL and I do just enough night flying now to stay current with an occasional early morning take off.
 
Some countries require an instrument rating for night flying, Mexico for one if I'm not mistaken.
Now I'm not suggesting the US should require it just to follow Mexico's lead but OTOH pilots that are used to clear skies, full moon and a bunch of city lights are gonna' find that night with an overcast sky, no moon and out over remote country with few lights on the ground is essentially a control by sole reference to the instruments operation. Some won't be up to the task, JFK jr comes to mind.
 
I think flying at night in a non congested area is easier than flying in a congested area. In LI you can really get confused with all the lights and a lot of the lights tend to blend in with airport lights. At least in a non congested area once you hit a pocket of light, it will most likely be the airport and you'll probably be able to view the beacon easier.
 
jordane93 said:
I think flying at night in a non congested area is easier than flying in a congested area. In LI you can really get confused with all the lights and a lot of the lights tend to blend in with airport lights. At least in a non congested area once you hit a pocket of light, it will most likely be the airport and you'll probably be able to view the beacon easier.
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So you'd rather sing country instead of hip-hop?
 
dans2992 said:
Why was he so clueless with 310 hours? Was he not flying often?
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Too much dual time ... never made his own decisions.

peerlesscowboy said:
Some countries require an instrument rating for night flying, Mexico for one if I'm not mistaken.
Now I'm not suggesting the US should require it just to follow Mexico's lead but OTOH pilots that are used to clear skies, full moon and a bunch of city lights are gonna' find that night with an overcast sky, no moon and out over remote country with few lights on the ground is essentially a control by sole reference to the instruments operation. Some won't be up to the task, JFK jr comes to mind.
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Most pilots will probably never go over 300 hours total either, and never stray more than a few XC's from home. That said, they should be very comfortable with their own area.
 
To maybe add fuel to the fire, what makes the HP or complex sign off much different. These were added regulations added in the 90's if I have read them correctly. Is flying at night more dangerous than flying with 201 hp as opposed to 180 hp? I can kinda see the complex sing off (or the tail wheel) for that matter, but insurance company will not insure the hull without some time in those planes? It seems the insurance being granted is almost more stringent than the current sign off requirements. I would not fly without insurance, so getting the insurance companies OK is almost a must to me. Therefor, are those sign offs also too much, given another defacto system is in place?
 
drotto said:
To maybe add fuel to the fire, what makes the HP or complex sign off much different. These were added regulations added in the 90's if I have read them correctly.
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Accident and incident history. And there are still a lot of gear-ups - probably more than night-caused incidents.

BTW, the sign-off goes back at least to the 60's or early 70's although until the late 90s, the complex and high performance endorsements were combined.

And the 1973 amendment of the rule had some comments that the 200 should actually be 250 HP, with the FAA responding:
The FAA does not agree. The greatest difference in terms of complexity of systems, control characteristics, and performance occurs between airplanes of more than 200 horsepower and those of 200 horsepower or less.​
 
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drotto said:
To maybe add fuel to the fire, what makes the HP or complex sign off much different. These were added regulations added in the 90's if I have read them correctly. Is flying at night more dangerous than flying with 201 hp as opposed to 180 hp? I can kinda see the complex sing off (or the tail wheel) for that matter, but insurance company will not insure the hull without some time in those planes? It seems the insurance being granted is almost more stringent than the current sign off requirements. I would not fly without insurance, so getting the insurance companies OK is almost a must to me. Therefor, are those sign offs also too much, given another defacto system is in place?
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The private doesn't require 3 hours in a complex or 3 hours in a high performance.
 
dmspilot said:
The private doesn't require 3 hours in a complex or 3 hours in a high performance.
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That's a pretty good point.

When I taught a little more regularly, we would do at least one night flight before the cross country. That one included such things as stalls, slow flight and steep turns (steep turns are really fun at night :devil:). The cross country would include an very dark area. I've had at least one student say he would not fly at night without additional instruction.

I think that's the idea - at least a taste so the pilot can make an informed decision.
 
In Europe it's an additional sign off (or virtually requires an IR). But I would rather leave things as they are… how often do we hear about VFR night accidents? Not often, probably because most VFR pilots are cautious about flying at night. Why add a regulation when people know to get additional training anyway? At the end of long trips, I've landed when it was getting pretty dark, but generally I try to avoid it.
 
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Re: Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

denverpilot said:
I always hold sing-offs in the cockpit. I'm a good singer.
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Yeah, me too, but it's hard to hear the tower when singing in the pattern.
 
I am somewhere between conservative and libertarian in my political views. That said, to think there is NO regulating required is silly, and I will debate anyone on that point.
If you want to kill yourself, that is your choice. If you are licensed to kill unknowing people in your airplane, that's a different animal.
 
Kritchlow said:
I am somewhere between conservative and libertarian in my political views. That said, to think there is NO regulating required is silly, and I will debate anyone on that point.
If you want to kill yourself, that is your choice. If you are licensed to kill unknowing people in your airplane, that's a different animal.
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All pilots with certificates higher than "Student Pilot" are permitted to carry passengers, and thus are "licensed to kill unknowing people" in an airplane. Many do--day VFR, day IMC and day VFR-into-IMC. Given the number of accident reports where the pilot was breaking multiple FARs [including currency, medical, aircraft annual, etc.], more regulations will not reduce the accident rate, they will only reduce the pilot rate as fewer will complete the additional training.

IF NIGHT FLYING BOTHERS YOU, DON'T FLY AT NIGHT. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT OTHERS SHOULD NOT FLY AT NIGHT.

PLEASE STOP IMPOSING YOUR OWN FEARS ON THE REST OF THE WORLD!!

I don't like broccoli, so the grocery stores here should not be allowed to sell it, and restaurants here should not be able to serve it. This makes as much sense as your fear of night flight requiring me to get additional training.
 
Hank S said:
All pilots with certificates higher than "Student Pilot" are permitted to carry passengers, and thus are "licensed to kill unknowing people" in an airplane. Many do--day VFR, day IMC and day VFR-into-IMC. Given the number of accident reports where the pilot was breaking multiple FARs [including currency, medical, aircraft annual, etc.], more regulations will not reduce the accident rate, they will only reduce the pilot rate as fewer will complete the additional training.

IF NIGHT FLYING BOTHERS YOU, DON'T FLY AT NIGHT. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT OTHERS SHOULD NOT FLY AT NIGHT.

PLEASE STOP IMPOSING YOUR OWN FEARS ON THE REST OF THE WORLD!!

I don't like broccoli, so the grocery stores here should not be allowed to sell it, and restaurants here should not be able to serve it. This makes as much sense as your fear of night flight requiring me to get additional training.
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So, do you not believe an instrument rating should be required to fly in IMC?
 
Hank S said:
All pilots with certificates higher than "Student Pilot" are permitted to carry passengers, and thus are "licensed to kill unknowing people" in an airplane. Many do--day VFR, day IMC and day VFR-into-IMC. Given the number of accident reports where the pilot was breaking multiple FARs [including currency, medical, aircraft annual, etc.], more regulations will not reduce the accident rate, they will only reduce the pilot rate as fewer will complete the additional training.

IF NIGHT FLYING BOTHERS YOU, DON'T FLY AT NIGHT. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT OTHERS SHOULD NOT FLY AT NIGHT.

PLEASE STOP IMPOSING YOUR OWN FEARS ON THE REST OF THE WORLD!!

I don't like broccoli, so the grocery stores here should not be allowed to sell it, and restaurants here should not be able to serve it. This makes as much sense as your fear of night flight requiring me to get additional training.
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Clearly you do believe is some regulation in aviation...
 
Hank S said:
All pilots with certificates higher than "Student Pilot" are permitted to carry passengers, and thus are "licensed to kill unknowing people" in an airplane. Many do--day VFR, day IMC and day VFR-into-IMC. Given the number of accident reports where the pilot was breaking multiple FARs [including currency, medical, aircraft annual, etc.], more regulations will not reduce the accident rate, they will only reduce the pilot rate as fewer will complete the additional training.

IF NIGHT FLYING BOTHERS YOU, DON'T FLY AT NIGHT. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT OTHERS SHOULD NOT FLY AT NIGHT.

PLEASE STOP IMPOSING YOUR OWN FEARS ON THE REST OF THE WORLD!!

I don't like broccoli, so the grocery stores here should not be allowed to sell it, and restaurants here should not be able to serve it. This makes as much sense as your fear of night flight requiring me to get additional training.
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And I'll assume while you're using the term "YOU" and "YOUR FEARS", you are not yelling at me specifically. I'm just fine with night flying.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
So, do you not believe an instrument rating should be required to fly in IMC?
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Apparently I have not been clear.

All that IS required to fly at night is a PPL.

All that SHOULD BE required to fly at night is a PPL.

Whether or not to make a particular flight, day or night, over a metropolitan area, the desert or a few mountains, solo or with an instructor/experienced copilot, is up to the PIC.

Some flights I make without a second thought. Some I watch, wait and study for days. Sometimes these are outbound and home on the same trip. By itself, to me, "night" has never been a consideration. Late night landing after a busy day or two, with questionable weather? THERE is a reason to think, evaluate a consider leaving earlier or in the morning. Not flying to supper because the half hour flight home would be in the dark? No way in H3ll I'd cancel or eat early without something else significant making me rethink it. I.e., weather moving in, turbulence, restaurant closing early, etc.
 
Hank S said:
Apparently I have not been clear.

All that IS required to fly at night is a PPL.

All that SHOULD BE required to fly at night is a PPL.

Whether or not to make a particular flight, day or night, over a metropolitan area, the desert or a few mountains, solo or with an instructor/experienced copilot, is up to the PIC.

Some flights I make without a second thought. Some I watch, wait and study for days. Sometimes these are outbound and home on the same trip. By itself, to me, "night" has never been a consideration. Late night landing after a busy day or two, with questionable weather? THERE is a reason to think, evaluate a consider leaving earlier or in the morning. Not flying to supper because the half hour flight home would be in the dark? No way in H3ll I'd cancel or eat early without something else significant making me rethink it. I.e., weather moving in, turbulence, restaurant closing early, etc.
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and I see you're instrument rated, as am I.
 
Kritchlow said:
Clearly you do believe is some regulation in aviation...
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Clearly there is MUCH regulation in aviation. What I don't understand is your desire to increase it, especially for something as simple as flying after dark.

My first night flight was the end if a 350+ nm XC after work on Friday, a whole five days after completing the insurance dual in the Mooney, with almost 90 hours in my logbook. Two months later, I flew from the NC coast 383nm back to WV, half after dark, to my 3000' home field, landing over the trees that keep us from having VASI or PAPI lights because they would be obstructed.

I don't fly a whole lot at night, but did recently go from S. Ala to far WV, 3.6 hours, departing after dark. I'm running about 15% night hours including about a third of my Instrument training, because after work fit my and CFII's schedule.

Took a coworker to supper, she and her husband were thrilled flying home at dark. Turning on the lights to taxi out took their breath away.

You trained to fly at night, and don't want to. That's fine. Some people train to fly XC and don't want to. How you use your PPL is up to you. Please leave how I can and can't use mine to me, or I'll butt into how you must use yours.
 
Hank S said:
Clearly there is MUCH regulation in aviation. What I don't understand is your desire to increase it, especially for something as simple as flying after dark.

My first night flight was the end if a 350+ nm XC after work on Friday, a whole five days after completing the insurance dual in the Mooney, with almost 90 hours in my logbook. Two months later, I flew from the NC coast 383nm back to WV, half after dark, to my 3000' home field, landing over the trees that keep us from having VASI or PAPI lights because they would be obstructed.

I don't fly a whole lot at night, but did recently go from S. Ala to far WV, 3.6 hours, departing after dark. I'm running about 15% night hours including about a third of my Instrument training, because after work fit my and CFII's schedule.

Took a coworker to supper, she and her husband were thrilled flying home at dark. Turning on the lights to taxi out took their breath away.

You trained to fly at night, and don't want to. That's fine. Some people train to fly XC and don't want to. How you use your PPL is up to you. Please leave how I can and can't use mine to me, or I'll butt into how you must use yours.
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Lol!!! I have about 13.000 hours, of which 6,000 are night.
I don't want more regulation, but I do see the logic in this one.
Btw... I'm an ATP at a major airline.

Also... If a VASI/PAPI would be obscured, by definition it's not a safe approach.
 
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Kritchlow said:
Also... If a VASI/PAPI would be obscured, by definition it's not a safe approach.
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There are no approaches, due to the trees at both ends. But the flight school there has steady business for their three Skyhawks. It's just another county airport, whose County Commission refuses to support it at all. About 40 planes are based there.

When weather is poor, fly an approach into the nearby Class D and finish up Slecial VFR (it's 4 nm), or land and wait for it to clear up. I've done both, but it's an annoying half hour drive due to the Ohio River being easy to fly over but difficult to drive across.
 
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Hank S said:
There are no approaches, due to the trees at both ends.
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That may be true, but I still would think the approach glide slope would be unacceptable regardless of weather.
 
Kritchlow said:
That may be true, but I still would think the approach glide slope would be unacceptable regardless of weather.
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What glide slope? Look out the window at the runway lights, can't even see the REILs until you clear the trees on short final.

Your slope is what you fly. The trees show up good in your landing light; when it burns out, just level off at 700' until the numbers are visible, then go to idle and land (elevation = 567 msl).
 
Hank S said:
What glide slope? Look out the window at the runway lights, can't even see the REILs until you clear the trees on short final.

Your slope is what you fly. The trees show up good in your landing light; when it burns out, just level off at 700' until the numbers are visible, then go to idle and land (elevation = 567 msl).
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There is always a proper glide slope. Usually about 3 degrees, but can be a bit more. One should always calculate this, especially at night. It's approx 300 feet per mile.
 
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