do you pray before you fly?

[FastEddieB]

I think we are born with it. Whether it is nourished or squelched largely depends on the environment we grow up in. But that's just my thoughts.

Perfectly reasonable, but I have a very different take.

I think we are born largely with a tabula rasa - a blank slate.

But a blank slate that is more like a highly absorbent sponge - primed and ready to absorb language, concepts, imprinting with parental figures, that sort of thing.

So whatever you pour into a young mind is very likely to "stick". Google tells me that “Give me the child until he is seven and I'll give you the man” is a Jesuit quote, but it serves well here.

Dawkins gave us the concept of a "meme". He also compares religion to a "mind virus". I think the analogy is apt. The modern religions are all survivors - thousands of previous, inferior memes have died out. The successful ones have effective "hooks" that replicate generation after generation, evolving to survive. The remaining ones have very powerful appeal. Forgiveness of all your sins, eternal life, virgins as reward for jihad, reincarnation, nirvana/enlightenment - you name it.

As I said, children are born with a powerful imprinting instinct, much like baby ducks. In its plastic, malleable and formative years, present a child with the concept of a "heavenly father" and its very likely to remain with them for life. Even the most objectively unlikely concepts: virgin births, talking snakes, angels, demons, God listening and answering prayers, heaven, hell, whatever - insert them at a young enough age and they're likely to be internalized to the point where they seem reasonable even into adult life. Reasonable also to others similarly inculcated with the same memes, who will just reinforce said concepts. To others, not so much. From the outside looking in, much of what others believe fervently in looks an awful lot like mythology.

Anyway, that's my take, and I think it fits the evidence pretty well. But since faith, by definition, is NOT based on evidence, I don't really expect to sway any minds.

 

[overdrive148]

Not swaying my mind... because I totally agree.

Although, my aunt and uncle tried pushing church and religion on me when I was pretty young and under their roof (long story - custody battles and CPS and etc) and I just couldn't stand to take part in any of it, of my own accord and reasoning. I wasn't really told anything contrary before either.

 

[tmyers]

Perfectly reasonable, but I have a very different take.

I think we are born largely with a tabula rasa - a blank slate.

Maybe not as different as it sounds, Inspiration is only blank slate that can be inspired. The sponge absorbs what is around it both good and bad. Still there are some that make good from very bad situations, where does that come from?

 

[Henning]

Maybe not as different as it sounds, Inspiration is only blank slate that can be inspired. The sponge absorbs what is around it both good and bad. Still there are some that make good from very bad situations, where does that come from?

Intelligence, which leads to the key question, "where does intelligence come from?" Intelligence is the ability to take what you have and make more from it.

 

[FastEddieB]

Still there are some that make good from very bad situations, where does that come from?

And some that make bad from very good situations.

I would place that as "human nature" or "psychology", not anything to do with religion or theology. Not sure it "comes from" anywhere, other than maybe evolutionary pressures.

 

[Jay Honeck]

There is no such thing as excessive risk really, especially with your own life. Death is inevitable, enjoy life to the fullest, experience everything you desire; that's what life is about. What scared people think is irrelevant to me.

It's tied to curiosity and the desire to learn, what we are all programmed for from birth. Fear to the point of denying experience is a culturally taught phenomenon.

I'm not sure about that. In my own family, raised by the same parents, in the same circumstance, I am the risk taker. I have always ridden motorcycles, flown airplanes, moved vast distances, started new businesses, etc. My siblings (and my parents) were/are much more staid in their lifestyles.

So if there can be such wild variation within a single family, it's hard to pin risk taking on culture, although I'm sure it plays a part.

Interestingly (although probably irrelevant), my two siblings are fairly religious. Neither have taken any risks in life since high school, as far as I can tell.

 

[Henning]

I'm not sure about that. In my own family, raised by the same parents, in the same circumstance, I am the risk taker. I have always ridden motorcycles, flown airplanes, moved vast distances, started new businesses, etc. My siblings (and my parents) were/are much more staid in their lifestyles.

So if there can be such wild variation within a single family, it's hard to pin risk taking on culture, although I'm sure it plays a part.

Interestingly (although probably irrelevant), my two siblings are fairly religious. Neither have taken any risks in life since high school, as far as I can tell.

Risk taking is inherent, risk avoidance is taught/learned. Let a kid go with no instruction and watch them plug a fork in the wall socket. Risk takers are those who temper, or challenge (depending on how far they go) those teachings.

 

[azure]

Risk taking is inherent, risk avoidance is taught/learned. Let a kid go with no instruction and watch them plug a fork in the wall socket. Risk takers are those who temper, or challenge (depending on how far they go) those teachings.

Something tells me the kid who plugs a fork into a wall socket has no idea that it's a risky thing to do.

Yet many of us do things that we *know* carry substantial risk of pain or death, yet we do them anyway, albeit while taking steps to minimize the risk. Two weeks ago I climbed Mt. Hunger here in VT alone, even though I know that hiking alone in this area is risky and several hikers have had to be rescued from remote parts of the Worcesters in recent years. I did it because I really wanted to do it, the weather forecast was benign that day, and I had no one to go with. I've also many times since getting my IR gone up in hard IMC, just for the experience and proficiency benefit, even though my plane has a possible single point failure mode (alternator) that could potentially be disastrous without the possibility of an ATC-guided approach like a PAR.

I think you're right that we who take risks need to overcome learned fear to do so, but how we do that is not always a conscious process. I used to be quite the scaredy cat, but have become more fatalistic in my old age and I'm not really sure why.

 

[Henning]

Something tells me the kid who plugs a fork into a wall socket has no idea that it's a risky thing to do.

Yet many of us do things that we *know* carry substantial risk of pain or death, yet we do them anyway, albeit while taking steps to minimize the risk. Two weeks ago I climbed Mt. Hunger here in VT alone, even though I know that hiking alone in this area is risky and several hikers have had to be rescued from remote parts of the Worcesters in recent years. I did it because I really wanted to do it, the weather forecast was benign that day, and I had no one to go with. I've also many times since getting my IR gone up in hard IMC, just for the experience and proficiency benefit, even though my plane has a possible single point failure mode (alternator) that could potentially be disastrous without the possibility of an ATC-guided approach like a PAR.

I think you're right that we who take risks need to overcome learned fear to do so, but how we do that is not always a conscious process. I used to be quite the scaredy cat, but have become more fatalistic in my old age and I'm not really sure why.

Exactly the concept of 'risk' itself is learned, curiosity is what leads us into 'risk'.

BTW, if your alternator fails, why is not having a PAR available an increased risk? If you have COM, you typically have NAV.

 

[azure]

Exactly the concept of 'risk' itself is learned, curiosity is what leads us into 'risk'.

Agreed.

BTW, if your alternator fails, why is not having a PAR available an increased risk? If you have COM, you typically have NAV.

I will not have COM, or NAV for long. With everything running my avionics will drain the battery quite fast - I would have only about 10-15 minutes of useful power after the alternator dies. My Sandel complains immediately so my emergency procedure for alternator failure would be to shut it off, leaving me with only compass for heading info and GPS for track.

By comparison, a vacuum failure would be almost a non-event.

I need to get together with a good avionics technician to work out a better load-based selective shutoff plan. But unless I can get to an IAF quickly enough, absent a PAR I'd be shooting an approach using ForeFlight. And here in VT it's often more than 15 minutes to a suitable field with an IAP.

 

[Henning]

Agreed.

I will not have COM, or NAV for long. With everything running my avionics will drain the battery quite fast - I would have only about 10-15 minutes of useful power after the alternator dies. My Sandel complains immediately so my emergency procedure for alternator failure would be to shut it off, leaving me with only compass for heading info and GPS for track.

By comparison, a vacuum failure would be almost a non-event.

I need to get together with a good avionics technician to work out a better load-based selective shutoff plan. But unless I can get to an IAF quickly enough, absent a PAR I'd be shooting an approach using ForeFlight. And here in VT it's often more than 15 minutes to a suitable field with an IAP.

If you have no COM, you aren't shooting a PAR (I think a TXP is required as well, but maybe not). An iPad with Garmin Pilot or 796 and and GDL-39-3D would be of great benefit though.

 

[azure]

If you have no COM, you aren't shooting a PAR (I think a TXP is required as well, but maybe not). An iPad with Garmin Pilot or 796 and and GDL-39-3D would be of great benefit though.

Hand held radio works for COM, though with difficulty due to engine noise. Better than trying to shoot an approach using FF, anyway.

 

[Mutts]

I didn't think I had to do it, I saw the passengers praying feverishly already.

 

[Henning]

Hand held radio works for COM, though with difficulty due to engine noise. Better than trying to shoot an approach using FF, anyway.

Depends how low the deck/visibility is. I have not had good experience using hand held radios in planes.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Depends how low the deck/visibility is. I have not had good experience using hand held radios in planes.

Me, neither.

We lost coms in a clapped out Apache flying into MSP at night, many moons ago. My CFI buddy whipped out his Icom handheld -- and couldn't hear a thing over the engine noise.

He ended up sticking it under his headphones, between his ear and the earpiece., and turning it all the way up. I think he's still deaf in that ear. lol

That was when I bought the headset adaptor for my handheld.

 

[jesse]

True, but we pilots take what many describe as excessive risks for what some describe as limited utility.

It's always fascinating to study the difference between (and motivation behind) people who routinely take risks, and those who don't.

I don't think it's a death wish, per se, but perhaps rather a lowered fear of death. The real question is: Why?

It doesn't appear to be tied to religion, or who prays, which is somewhat surprising.

I view life as this thing I get to experience, don't know why, and know it only lasts so much.

Since my life is a limited resource I mostly certainly don't want to die early but I also don't want to not enjoy it. If I don't take risks with my life I won't enjoy the life. If I take too many risks the life may not last as long as I would like as a result I won't get as much enjoyment as I can.

So there's a balance in there. Take risks to enjoy life. Don't take so many I cut life too short.

The more enjoyment I can get the better I think life is. It's an equation....

I don't fear death whatsoever. I fear wasting my life and not enjoying it to its maximum potential much more so.

The one comforting thing in the whole equation is that if I screw up and life terminates early I won't know it happened and up to this point I've had a lot of enjoyment.

What I don't want to do is end up in a bed at the end of life, in pain, incapable of doing anything I would enjoy, only able to think about how I wasted life and can't go back and enjoy it. Yes...that's probably the only thing I fear...and I fear that by far more than I do taking calculated risks that weigh heavily in my favor.

 

[Jay Honeck]

What I don't want to do is end up in a bed at the end of life, in pain, incapable of doing anything I would enjoy, only able to think about how I wasted life and can't go back and enjoy it. Yes...that's probably the only thing I fear...and I fear that by far more than I do taking calculated risks that weigh heavily in my favor.

Sounds like a good prayer, to me. Just gotta add "Amen!"

 

[ollopa]

I have seen to much that can not be explained to know that someone is indeed watching.

There is more then what we see with our eye's.

Like magnetism! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvmvxAcT_Yc
Hahahaha

Just because you couldn't understand it doesn't mean that nobody else in the entire world can. And while there certainly are many unexplained mysteries in the universe, that doesn't mean that some particular religion is the best explanation--especially when it only goes so far as "Don't question Him."

I have seen too much that contradicts your premise to know that there is indeed nobody watching.

 

[Jim_CAK]

I view life as this thing I get to experience, don't know why, and know it only lasts so much.

Since my life is a limited resource I mostly certainly don't want to die early but I also don't want to not enjoy it. If I don't take risks with my life I won't enjoy the life. If I take too many risks the life may not last as long as I would like as a result I won't get as much enjoyment as I can.

So there's a balance in there. Take risks to enjoy life. Don't take so many I cut life too short.

The more enjoyment I can get the better I think life is. It's an equation....

I don't fear death whatsoever. I fear wasting my life and not enjoying it to its maximum potential much more so.

The one comforting thing in the whole equation is that if I screw up and life terminates early I won't know it happened and up to this point I've had a lot of enjoyment.

What I don't want to do is end up in a bed at the end of life, in pain, incapable of doing anything I would enjoy, only able to think about how I wasted life and can't go back and enjoy it. Yes...that's probably the only thing I fear...and I fear that by far more than I do taking calculated risks that weigh heavily in my favor.

we need a "like" button. Good post

 

[flyingriki]

Oh yeah, I pray. Given what geico thinks about my ride I better pray!

 

[SbestCFII]

The value likely pales in comparison to a thorough flight-planning and preflight inspection, but there is certainly nothing wrong with it.

 

[denverpilot]

Pretty much everything we do is based in fear of death.

I always fear death when I activate the turd daughterboard.

 

[write-stuff]

I view life as this thing I get to experience, don't know why, and know it only lasts so much.

Since my life is a limited resource I mostly certainly don't want to die early but I also don't want to not enjoy it. If I don't take risks with my life I won't enjoy the life. If I take too many risks the life may not last as long as I would like as a result I won't get as much enjoyment as I can.

So there's a balance in there. Take risks to enjoy life. Don't take so many I cut life too short.

The more enjoyment I can get the better I think life is. It's an equation....

I don't fear death whatsoever. I fear wasting my life and not enjoying it to its maximum potential much more so.

The one comforting thing in the whole equation is that if I screw up and life terminates early I won't know it happened and up to this point I've had a lot of enjoyment.

Possibly the best description I've ever heard.

 

[SbestCFII]

That's the hazardous attitude of resignation. The plane is in your hands. Use your hands and brain to affect the outcome, because no one else can do it for you.

 

[dlsmith]

I'm not the best about praying, even though I would consider myself a religious person. But yes, a lot of times I do pray before and during a flight. Especially when I know I'm going to be or am already in a tight spot, mostly due to a mistake on my part of some sort. But I also know I have to do my part. I give it my all and hope God sees it fit to help me the rest of the way.


Being in an airplane is a lot like when I used to run rodeo circuits. I've been in some situations I shouldn't have made it out of, and I've looked back and said "by all logic that should've been the end of me". So I'm either extremely lucky or someone's watching out for me. I tend to think the latter

 

[FastEddieB]

But I also know I have to do my part. I give it my all and hope God sees it fit to help me the rest of the way.

Would he not do that anyway?

If he's omniscient, he's already aware of your situation - right?

Or do you see the prayer part as "nudging" him in the right direction?

And if he let you crash anyway, would you thank him for "unanswered prayers" - as in the Garth Brooks song?

Do you feel non-praying pilots are less likely to get his "help"?

To a nonbeliever, all this seems to be rife with logical contradictions. - hence the questions which seem to derive obviously from logical thought.

Just curious about though processes is all. If the prayer part gives you solace, pray away!

 

[jasstech]

One thing you have to understand if you truly want to understand prayer is that those of us who believe, believe God is our father. That makes us children. So to understand prayer, you only need to understand how children interact with parents. Some people thank their parents for doing what was best for them even when it wasn't what they wanted at the time. That is your unanswered prayers. When a child has a good relationship with their parents they have faith in them. To have a good relationship with God you have to have faith in Him. I am a very logical person but for some reason God has made it obvious to me a few times that He was answering my prayers. He made it obvious before those prayers were answered that they would be answered. I have no idea why He did that but I am very thankful for it because when my logical mind starts to doubt I have those experiences to fall back on. I pray that He gives that gift to everyone with a logical mind so they too can have faith amidst their doubt.

 

[FastEddieB]

One thing you have to understand if you truly want to understand prayer is that those of us who believe, believe God is our father. That makes us children.

Clearly a powerful and deeply held belief.

As I theorized before, I think it has a biological origin - we are born ready to imprint parental figures, and if a "heavenly" father is presented to a child, the normal imprinting that occurs with real parents gets hijacked to whatever religious figure is presented to the child as a "parent".

But I'm not trying to talk anyone out of any particular belief system. Just presenting that there may be naturalistic explanations to supernatural beliefs.

 

[yetti]

As I theorized before, I think it has a biological origin - we are born ready to imprint parental figures, and if a "heavenly" father is presented to a child, the normal imprinting that occurs with real parents gets hijacked to whatever religious figure is presented to the child as a "parent".

And that "biological imprint" desire came from where?

Or as Pascal put it

"What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself"

 

[Henning]

Would he not do that anyway?

If he's omniscient, he's already aware of your situation - right?

Or do you see the prayer part as "nudging" him in the right direction?

And if he let you crash anyway, would you thank him for "unanswered prayers" - as in the Garth Brooks song?

Do you feel non-praying pilots are less likely to get his "help"?

To a nonbeliever, all this seems to be rife with logical contradictions. - hence the questions which seem to derive obviously from logical thought.

Just curious about though processes is all. If the prayer part gives you solace, pray away!

Prayer is only really effective in that it allows for a moment of reflection to collect thoughts and ideas of how to proceed. The quality of omnipotence is the false assumption presented by religion. God can do nothing except provide information, it's up to us to use it or not, and how.

 

[jasstech]

Clearly a powerful and deeply held belief.

As I theorized before, I think it has a biological origin - we are born ready to imprint parental figures, and if a "heavenly" father is presented to a child, the normal imprinting that occurs with real parents gets hijacked to whatever religious figure is presented to the child as a "parent".

But I'm not trying to talk anyone out of any particular belief system. Just presenting that there may be naturalistic explanations to supernatural beliefs.

I am not arguing against this nor do I believe it is untrue. This is the kind of stuff that at times has made me question my beliefs. However for some reason God chose multiple times to let me know my prayers would be answered before they were. Hearing God in this way makes it very easy to have faith. And faith is what it is all about anyway.

 

[bullwinkle]

That's the hazardous attitude of resignation. The plane is in your hands. Use your hands and brain to affect the outcome, because no one else can do it for you.

Hogwash.

Whether one prays in the cockpit or not has nothing whatsoever with resignation.

 

[Henning]

Hogwash.

Whether one prays in the cockpit or not has nothing whatsoever with resignation.

Resignation is not even a 'bad thing', it all depends to what you have resigned yourself. I was resigned to dying in icing one night. It's very calming actually, and allowed me to focus on the task at hand rather than worrying about dying. Didn't make me quit trying to fly the plane or thinking about how the ice was affecting the aerodynamics and what I needed to consider about that to modify my typical actions.

 

[bflynn]

Prayer is only really effective

To you. I know it's hard, but please try not to define prayer for the rest of us. We probably find your explanation just as bizarre as you find ours and in the end it really doesn't matter because there's room for both if we just have respect.

Now if you don't have respect then there's room for nothing but yourself...

 

[Henning]

To you. I know it's hard, but please try not to define prayer for the rest of us. We probably find your explanation just as bizarre as you find ours and in the end it really doesn't matter because there's room for both if we just have respect.

Now if you don't have respect then there's room for nothing but yourself...

What anyone believes is wholly irrelevant to the course of the future, only what they do.

 

[PeeGee]

usually I just have some pasta before I fly and I'm touched by his noodely appendage.

 

[bullwinkle]

usually I just have some pasta before I fly and I'm touched by his noodely appendage.

The whole "flying spaghetti monster" BS is really just a way to mock and demean people who have a different view of the Universe than you do. It's a lazy way of having a conversation.

As I have stated before, I'm not religious. But I also have no tolerance for those who mock others' beliefs. I'm not so arrogant as to believe I have all the answers, or even that the ones I think I do have are the rights ones.

This is (very) thinly veiled bigotry, masquerading as humor. I'm not a fan.

 

[Henning]

The whole "flying spaghetti monster" BS is really just a way to mock and demean people who have a different view of the Universe than you do. It's a lazy way of having a conversation.

As I have stated before, I'm not religious. But I also have no tolerance for those who mock others' beliefs. I'm not so arrogant as to believe I have all the answers, or even that the ones I think I do have are the rights ones.

This is (very) thinly veiled bigotry, masquerading as humor. I'm not a fan.

It doesn't really matter, people will think what they think, and learn what they learn through the course of each life. Lessons not learned in one will be be reintroduced in another.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

It doesn't really matter, people will think what they think, and learn what they learn through the course of each life. Lessons not learned in one will be be reintroduced in another.

how do you know that?

 

[narchee]

I have a landing calculator that has a ouija board on the reverse and sometimes before I fly I will consult the board and communicate with the late Gustave Whitehead for guidance before a flight.