do you pray before you fly?

[bullwinkle]

I must say that this thread has fallen somewhere between fascinating and terrifying.

I would not fly with an overtly prayerful pilot. (By "overtly prayerful" I mean kneeling, chanting, eyes closed, holding a sacred talisman overhead before boarding). If it were subtle (meaning that no one knew it was happening), no harm done, I suppose.

Bottom line? I don't want to fly with someone who thinks that God is in control of their precise flight plan -- but I don't mind someone who is humbly asking their God for redemption should something go wrong.

What does it matter what a pilot's personal views are, if he's a good aviator? I'd fly with Chuck Yeager, even if he slaughtered a chicken and sprayed the blood on his airplane before each flight.

Some of these comments sound kind of bigoted. I either trust an individual pilot or I don't, based on skills and temperament. Their personal views of the Universe don't really enter into it, and more then their political views, favorite color, or if they drink Coke vs. Pepsi.

 

[bullwinkle]

Am I safe in assuming that if I prayed to the Pastafarian god, he/she/it would know I was vegetarian and only provide veggie meatballs?

Sorry dude, vegetarian "meat" balls are an affront to gods. All of them.

 

[MAKG1]

Do you have a Mecca indicating compass in the aircraft?

Yes. The whiskey compass has a big capital E on it.

You're not launching an unguided ballistic missile. It doesn't have to be that precise.

 

[MAKG1]

Well, it might be a semantic distinction. I love when I see stuff like the following from hard core materialist/atheist types:

"Religious people are so stupid, thinking God made the Universe out of nothingness in the blink of an eye! Everybody KNOWS that the Big Bang created the Universe out of nothingness in the blink of an eye!!!"

It sure is easy to knock down those straw men, isn't it?

 

[bullwinkle]

It sure is easy to knock down those straw men, isn't it?

If you say so. Just pointing out that there might not be as much difference between people as they think there is.

 

[RoscoeT]

Well, it might be a semantic distinction. I love when I see stuff like the following from hard core materialist/atheist types:

"Religious people are so stupid, thinking God made the Universe out of nothingness in the blink of an eye! Everybody KNOWS that the Big Bang created the Universe out of nothingness in the blink of an eye!!!"

Doesn't sound like you actually know many atheists. I have NEVER heard any atheist/agnostic say they KNOW how the universe was created. They do not. Nobody does. That is an underlying principle of being agnostic - defined as: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. The difference is that these people choose not to believe in fairy tales and mythology to account for things they do not understand, and no human ever truly will, IMO.

 

[write-stuff]

"God made the Universe out of nothingness in the blink of an eye!"

No evidence exists to support this.

Everybody KNOWS that the Big Bang created the Universe out of nothingness in the blink of an eye!!!"

A huge amount of evidence exists to support this.

But neither can be known with complete certainty. An atheist chooses the most likely of the two options.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I am god, I hear all your praying. I'll keep you safe in your little airplanes when I'm not busy checking facebook. Oh look Mary just changed her relationship status to 'it is complicated'

 

[bullwinkle]

No evidence exists to support this.



A huge amount of evidence exists to support this.

But neither can be known with complete certainty. An atheist chooses the most likely of the two options.

Sure. And if you substitute the word "God" for the words "Big Bang"...what do you get?

Many are missing my point here. SEMANTICS.

And yes, I know a LOT of atheists. Many of them are adamant that the answers to *all* questions can eventually be found through materialist/scientific methods.

Fine, but since all answers have *not* been found that way yet, this is as much an article of faith as saying all answers are found in God. I believe neither point of view. But if you asked most materialists is they rely on some measure of faith for their believes, they'd deny it to the death.

 

[bullwinkle]

Doesn't sound like you actually know many atheists. I have NEVER heard any atheist/agnostic say they KNOW how the universe was created. They do not. Nobody does. That is an underlying principle of being agnostic - defined as: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. The difference is that these people choose not to believe in fairy tales and mythology to account for things they do not understand, and no human ever truly will, IMO.

You are talking agnostic, I said atheist. Not the same. AT ALL.

 

[jimson]

Religion is the root cause of all evil.

I thought it was money?

 

[jimson]

No evidence exists to support this.



A huge amount of evidence exists to support this.

But neither can be known with complete certainty. An atheist chooses the most likely of the two options.

So it's more likely that there was first nothing and then nothing for no reason suddenly exploded creating replicating bits of formerly nothing that also for no reason combined and created everything?

Agnostics are the honest one's because they admit they haven't got a clue and are willing to entertain any possibility.

 

[tmyers]

I never pray, I have no tongue for it. But my passengers always pray a lot. Never could figure that out.

We have been meaning to talk to you about your flying!!!!!!!

 

[tmyers]

If you don't pray, fine, but don't disparage those who do.

If you do pray, fine, but don't disparage those who don't.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[MAKG1]

So it's more likely that there was first nothing and then nothing for no reason suddenly exploded creating replicating bits of formerly nothing that also for no reason combined and created everything?

Straw man argument.

The hot big bang says that the universe was once much denser than it is now.

And that's ALL it says. It says nothing about "creating from nothingness" or any other such BS.

You will never find a scientist making a scientific statement about what was "before" the Big Bang. Ever. You might find a couple of misguided folks speculating -- and speculation is not science. You will certainly find a whole helluva lot of people speaking out of their butts trying to discredit a model for what it doesn't actually say.

What you CAN say with some certainty is that the universe is a whole helluva lot older than 6000 years. That one's easy even without cosmological arguments.

 

[Anthony]

I usually thank the plane for getting me home safely after the flight.

 

[steingar]

WTF is a "veggie meatball"? Isn't that an oxymoron? Why not just call it what it is: a veggball?

Textured vegetable protein. We use them in pasta when we feel the need for a bit more protein, mostly for convenience.

 

[tmyers]

We've always prayed before road trips, as well as our trips by air, whether private or commercial. When flying professionally, I just let my morning devotional carry the day. I figure when the passengers see me during boarding the devout ones will be praying the entire flight!

I am sure they are comforted when they see you, thinking you have been flying airliners for 20 years or more..... little do they know!!!!!!!

 

[MrManH]

I usually say a prayer on my way to the airport. I pray for a safe, educational and enjoyable flight. I don't do it in the plane especially with passengers next to me. As pointed out by others, I don't want to give them the idea that I put their safety into somebody else's hands. However when I see a passenger doing one, it always makes me smile (in a good way). Now if I'm cruising in straight and level flight with a low workload, I'll say a prayer while scanning outside to say thanks for what I'm able to do right now.

 

[FormerHangie]

I have a question: Why would you pray to ask God for something?

Let me preface this with where I'm coming from. I was raised Catholic, but stopped practicing as a young adult, Since then I've become increasingly skeptical about the existence of a god. Anyway, let me explain my reasoning here. Assuming God is omniscient, he knows what you're doing, and doesn't need a reminder to keep you safe. Also, assuming God is in control and intervenes in the running of the world, why would anyone think that he would alter his plans to suit any human's needs or wants? Assuming God wants to be worshipped, it seems to me that the only correct prayers are those that praise and worship him. Asking for things is somewhere between annoying and disrespectful.

I'm not trying to attack anyone's faith, it's just something I've not been able to reconcile in my own mind.

 

[MrManH]

I have a question: Why would you pray to ask God for something?

Let me preface this with where I'm coming from. I was raised Catholic, but stopped practicing as a young adult, Since then I've become increasingly skeptical about the existence of a god. Anyway, let me explain my reasoning here. Assuming God is omniscient, he knows what you're doing, and doesn't need a reminder to keep you safe. Also, assuming God is in control and intervenes in the running of the world, why would anyone think that he would alter his plans to suit any human's needs or wants? Assuming God wants to be worshipped, it seems to me that the only correct prayers are those that praise and worship him. Asking for things is somewhere between annoying and disrespectful.

I'm not trying to attack anyone's faith, it's just something I've not been able to reconcile in my own mind.

Ask and you shall receive.

Yes God works in mysterious ways etc, but if you don't even ask then you have no right to complain. It's kinda like choosing not to vote because you don't think it makes a difference and then complain about the guy who gets elected. I live in Chicago, I hate Chicago politics, my political views are the minority here so I know my vote is worthless, but I still vote. I can agree that asking for materialistic things is disrespectful, but asking for help to make better use of the gifts that he gave you, I don't find that disrespectful.

 

[Jay Honeck]

What does it matter what a pilot's personal views are, if he's a good aviator? I'd fly with Chuck Yeager, even if he slaughtered a chicken and sprayed the blood on his airplane before each flight.

Some of these comments sound kind of bigoted. I either trust an individual pilot or I don't, based on skills and temperament.

You answered your own question.

Skills are only as good as temperament. Someone who slaughters a chicken before flight (or falls to his knees, while wailing) has failed to demonstrate the cool, logical temperament that flying IMHO requires.

(And if Yeager did that, he'd be commited.)

To take the discussion to its logical extreme, the guy who flew the airliner into the mountains had skill, but his temperament was unsuitable.

Bottom line: I want a pilot who will fight with every fiber of his being to survive -- not someone who shrugs and says "It's God's will." YMMV.

 

[MrManH]

You answered your own question.

Skills are only as good as temperament. Someone who slaughters a chicken before flight (or falls to his knees, while wailing) has failed to demonstrate the cool, logical temperament that flying IMHO requires.

(And if Yeager did that, he'd be commited.)

To take the discussion to its logical extreme, the guy who flew the airliner into the mountains had skill, but his temperament was unsuitable.

Bottom line: I want a pilot who will fight with every fiber of his being to survive -- not someone who shrugs and says "It's God's will." YMMV.

Hell yeah, I'm not for resignation.

 

[DFH65]

So now POA has determined in it's infinite wisdom that people of faith are not mentally fit to fly. Good to know. Add that to the other great bits of wisdom heard here regularly.

 

[Fearless Tower]

So now POA has determined in it's infinite wisdom that people of faith are not mentally fit to fly. Good to know. Add that to the other great bits of wisdom heard here regularly.

No.

Just "Mr Zoom Climb/90KTAS is Slow Flight Guy" That guy does not speak for all of POA.

I am a Christian. I do pray (but not necessarily before a flight).

I also know from my own personal experiences in aviation and the military that if presented with a potentially disastrous situation, my survival instinct will result in me doing everything in my power to survive the outcome.

If the airplane breaks apart in flight, I WILL grab the biggest piece and at least ATTEMPT to fly it down, praying along the way.

 

[bullwinkle]

Bottom line: I want a pilot who will fight with every fiber of his being to survive -- not someone who shrugs and says "It's God's will." YMMV.

I don't know where you guys are getting religious = resigned to die in a tough situation.

I've never met anyone who thinks or acts like that.

 

[coloradobluesky]

SEX is the cause of most sin. The others are power and money. Remember, the serpent MADE her do it! (and then she made HIM do it). You don't have to be a psychologist to know what the serpent is! And of course God, gee, all he did was say "you can eat from every tree EXCEPT this one!!" Hmm, no wonder they wanted to eat from it! ANYONE WOULD!!

And guess what? Everyone wants sex power and money.

 

[bullwinkle]

Straw man argument.

The hot big bang says that the universe was once much denser than it is now.

And that's ALL it says. It says nothing about "creating from nothingness" or any other such BS.

Might want to tell the scientists at CERN that, their web page on the topic says:

"According to most astrophysicists, all the matter found in the universe today -- including the matter in people, plants, animals, the earth, stars, and galaxies -- was created at the very first moment of time, thought to be about 13 billion years ago.

The universe began, scientists believe, with every speck of its energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our vast universe."

Ask the really hard questions: If the Big Bang started from an infinitely small and energetic point, where did that point come from? What triggered that state of equilibrium into creating all matter in the Universe? How did life begin?

Science has no answers for those questions. I'm not saying it *can't* answer them, I'm saying it hasn't. So if you think it *can* answer them, that is an article of FAITH.

What you CAN say with some certainty is that the universe is a whole helluva lot older than 6000 years. That one's easy even without cosmological arguments.

Now THAT is a straw man. Nobody here, religious or otherwise, has said anything about the Universe being 6000 years old. Some religious people do believe that. Some scientists believe in UFOs. Does that mean that either belief is a precondition for either religion or science?

Equating one with the other is simply a rhetorical device to discredit a position you don't like.

 

[bullwinkle]

SEX is the cause of most sin. The others are power and money. Remember, the serpent MADE her do it! (and then she made HIM do it). You don't have to be a psychologist to know what the serpent is! And of course God, gee, all he did was say "you can eat from every tree EXCEPT this one!!" Hmm, no wonder they wanted to eat from it! ANYONE WOULD!!

And guess what? Everyone wants sex power and money.

Lots of people want to turn legitimate deep discussions on cosmology into facile jokes about biblical interpretation. It's an excellent defense mechanism to avoid difficult questions on the nature of the Universe.

The Bible has little to do with religion, even with Christianity.

 

[Henning]

The funny thing about prayer is that it works 100% of the time. If you pray for someone in the hospital to get better and they do: "See! Prayer works, God is good!" If you pray for someone to get better and they don't: "God works in mysterious ways", or "It was his time, God called him home."

I don't have negative feelings about any individual with strong religious beliefs, more power to you if it helps you through your day (many of my immediate family members are quite religious). That said, I do feel sorry, more on the level of humanity, about the need for religion. The logic-driven guy inside of me finds that quite sad.

Look around you, I say. The universe is filled with crazy amazing things, it's okay to not have all the answers. We don't need to make things up to not feel alone...we have each other and an entire Universe to explore, and for me that's enough.

That is the the problem with the belief structure that religion sells$$$. God does no work at all, we do it. God does not work in mysterious ways, it's actually quite simple. God organizes the information for a new universe that will provide plenty of Dark Enegry and new information to to feed our Multiverse organism. Then Cosmic Energy collected at the core of each Black Hole is used to generate another pulse of Time to drive the information and initial energy forward through space and excite the quanta floating in space into existence at the beginning of each universe pair (matter and anti matter) in the troughs of the time wave.

We can either follow the information injected at the universe's as well as each life's inception, "God's Plan", or choose not to through free will, with our actions and new information affecting the future, and also available to any universe in the future of the multiverse.

Time is a force that propels the information and energy package forward to react with the quanta in space to create matter, and Gravity is the resultant force from the act of that creation.

The intelligence of God is the same one we all use, and it links everything in the multiverse together. There is no 'you, me, and them', there is only us, and we are destroying ourselves.

 

[danhagan]

I say a short silent prayer during run up procedures.

I noticed the other day that my CFI appeared to be doing the same.
I didn't ask hin about it, but I'm fairly certain that he was.

That's the CFI Prayer:

Lord, please don't let this #%$&% student kill me on this flight

I'm religious, but don't pray before flight. I ***DO*** speak to the plane when it is acting up (have had smoke in the cockpit, as well as a mag failure at 400 AGL just past departure end of runway).

Me to airplane: I've already pitched to best glide and chosen a landing spot. I'm going to make it, you might not if you keep this up

 

[Henning]

SEX is the cause of most sin. The others are power and money. Remember, the serpent MADE her do it! (and then she made HIM do it). You don't have to be a psychologist to know what the serpent is! And of course God, gee, all he did was say "you can eat from every tree EXCEPT this one!!" Hmm, no wonder they wanted to eat from it! ANYONE WOULD!!

And guess what? Everyone wants sex power and money.

Sex is not the cause of sin, GREED is. Adam & Eve... Given everything but a bit of food. "Here, have everything and enjoy yourselves, just leave me this bit of food." What do we do? We eat the food, and that is what greed does, it makes us direct out thoughts inward to ourselves and causes us to take what is not ours from others. That creates negative information and negative energy which God cannot use to grow the multiverse with. Hence, we are eating the Apple. God wants us to have fun and enjoy ourselves to the fullest because God experiences everything we do as well. There are only two species on Earth that have sex for fun, humans and dolphins. We don't have this gift in order to not use it.

Usury was forbidden from the first inspiration man got for the creation of money, and usury is what gave the greedy the tool to take over the thoughts of man and direct them to money. Every religious revolution has addressed this issue, every one of them failed.

Look at the 10 Commandments, 3 of them forbid coveting, 1 forbids murder, not one word about sex.

The Snake is the origin of denial of personal responsibility.

 

[FastEddieB]

You brought it up and now you run away? tsk, tsk, tsk

I'm truly sorry.

It was early when I posted. I somehow thought that including Pastafarian prayers and veggie meatballs in the same post would clearly label it as a joke.

But now I see how some might have seen it as an open invitation to begin a discussion on vegetarianism with an introductory snarky comment about "meat-envy".

I was clearly wrong, but that's a conversation I will gladly "run away" from - history has shown me there's just no point.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm truly sorry.

It was early when I posted. I somehow thought that including Pastafarian prayers and veggie meatballs in the same post would clearly label it as a joke.

But now I see how some might have seen it as an open invitation to begin a discussion on vegetarianism with an introductory snarky comment about "meat-envy".

I was clearly wrong, but that's a conversation I will gladly "run away" from - history has shown me there's just no point.

Just look at where the other current thread about diet has gone...

 

[iWantWings]

If I know I'll be flying, I'll pray, sure. But I do it before I get to the airport - once I walk into the office and ask for the logbook, it's all about doing what i can do to make the flight a good one.

I'll add a few more things...

My parents - in particular my dad - is all against me flying GA for the purpose of "a good time". He sees it as an unreasonable, unnecessary risk, for the purpose of entertainment. And on that note, he continues to say that I must not put God to test, or I must not tempt God. What my dad is alluding to is that I cannot be doing something unreasonable (which he thinks is the case when flying GA for the purse of fun) and than pray for God's protection.

I agree with my dad with the truth that I must not put God to the test, but I disagree with my dad's notion that flying GA for fun and saying a prayer is "putting God to the test", or "tempting God".

If I was going to take unnecessary risks like not checking the fuel, oil, flying inverted in the pattern, or ferry my friend's plane (ha-ha, just kiddin'), and then pray for all be well - then that's no good, no doubt.

But, if I do all the things that I know I must do to make the flight a good one, then, sure, I will say a prayer and know that I'm not putting God to the test.

 

[Henning]

If I know I'll be flying, I'll pray, sure. But I do it before I get to the airport - once I walk into the office and ask for the logbook, it's all about doing what i can do to make the flight a good one.

I'll add a few more things...

My parents - in particular my dad - is all against me flying GA for the purpose of "a good time". He sees it as an unreasonable, unnecessary risk, for the purpose of entertainment. And on that note, he continues to say that I must not put God to test, or I must not tempt God. What my dad is alluding to is that I cannot be doing something unreasonable (which he thinks is the case when flying GA for the purse of fun) and than pray for God's protection.

I agree with my dad with the truth that I must not put God to the test, but I disagree with my dad's notion that flying GA for fun and saying a prayer is "putting God to the test", or "tempting God".

If I was going to take unnecessary risks like not checking the fuel, oil, flying inverted in the pattern, or ferry my friend's plane (ha-ha, just kiddin'), and then pray for all be well - then that's no good, no doubt.

But, if I do all the things that I know I must do to make the flight a good one, then, sure, I will say a prayer and know that I'm not putting God to the test.

God wants you to experience everything and enjoy life to its fullest. We don't enjoy it for no reason. Just tell your dad he's really bumming God out.

 

[MAKG1]

Might want to tell the scientists at CERN that, their web page on the topic says:

"According to most astrophysicists, all the matter found in the universe today -- including the matter in people, plants, animals, the earth, stars, and galaxies -- was created at the very first moment of time, thought to be about 13 billion years ago.

The universe began, scientists believe, with every speck of its energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our vast universe."

Ask the really hard questions: If the Big Bang started from an infinitely small and energetic point, where did that point come from? What triggered that state of equilibrium into creating all matter in the Universe? How did life begin?

No scientist wrote that website. There may be scientists at CERN, but it's an outreach -- not science -- function to write the external website.

It's wrong. It's known to be wrong. It has been known to be wrong since the first Hot Big Bang models more than 50 years ago.

And your conclusions from it are also wrong by GIGO.

The correct statement is that all the matter we can see now -- NOT all the matter in the universe -- was in a very small volume at a short time after "the Big Bang." It is not known -- nor is it knowable -- what happened at t<=0.

There is no evidence that there was ever any infinity, nor any "point" containing all the matter in the known universe. The models go back to a finite, albeit very high, density. There is an enormous difference. ANY statement about what happens before the Planck time is speculative or more likely just wrong. And 10^{-44} sec might be small, but it is still greater than zero.

Yes, there is a huge amount of BS out there. Don't confuse pop literature -- including CERN's website -- with science. Those of us who have actually done some work in the field cringe every time we see someone describe the Big Bang as infinitely dense or an "explosion" or any number of wildly wrong pop representations.

I'll repeat. All the Hot Big Bang says is that the universe was once much denser than it is now. A number of observations constrain the rate at which it is expanding and accelerating, and there are a number of interesting and verifiable consequences of that, after about t=3 sec (and the real good ones are more like 100,000 years). Arguments against speculation beyond that domain are straw men. All of them.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I don't know where you guys are getting religious = resigned to die in a tough situation.

I've never met anyone who thinks or acts like that.

To which I must ask: Why?

 

[CT4ME]

To each his own.

I see prayer as having about as much impact on flying, as having a 3rd class medical.

 

[BarryCooper]

Prayer is about having a personal relationship with God. Prayer is a conversation. It's not some magical Genie-type request for something.