Do you normally make clearing turns in routine VFR flight?

alfadog

alfadog

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alfadog
I went up with a new-to-me (LOL) CFII a couple weeks ago to get going again on my IR. We were in a club 172M. One thing he dinged me on was my failure to make clearing turns during climb-out turns and in level flight turns. Frankly, I never do. I keep the nose on the horizon during climb-out for visibility but do not make clearing turns. He wanted me to do it all the time. Not 90-degree clearing turns like you might make for maneuvering flight like stalls, etc. but at least lift the wing to see, what, an airplane three feet away? I think it is an over-abundance of caution but wonder, is that mostly just me?

I would like some input from the group as to whether you routinely make clearing turns in just normal VFR flight. Especially if you are in a high-wing airplane. Do you lift a wing or both wings before turning? Which one? How high? How about low-wings?

All input is appreciated.
 
alfadog said:
I went up with a new-to-me (LOL) CFII a couple weeks ago to get going again on my IR. We were in a club 172M. One thing he dinged me on was my failure to make clearing turns during climb-out turns and in level flight turns. Frankly, I never do. I keep the nose on the horizon during climb-out for visibility but do not make clearing turns. He wanted me to do it all the time. Not 90-degree clearing turns like you might make for maneuvering flight like stalls, etc. but at least lift the wing to see, what, an airplane three feet away? I think it is an over-abundance of caution but wonder, is that mostly just me?

I would like some input from the group as to whether you routinely make clearing turns in just normal VFR flight. Especially if you are in a high-wing airplane. Do you lift a wing or both wings before turning? Which one? How high? How about low-wings?

All input is appreciated.
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How about with very shallow climbs during filthy hot weather? I can't see anything directly in front of me so I tend turn and climb over terrain I've looked at.
 
Let me see if I have this straight -- your instructor wants clearing turns before you turn the plane? Or just to lift a wing to see in the direction you're turning before turning in a high wing plane? If the former, I'd say it's silly. If the latter, I'd say it's mandatory -- the visibility into the turn in most high wing planes is terrible (those with the leading edge well aft like the Cessna Cardinals excepted).
 
I could see the value of lifting the wing briefly (in a high-wing) to see what is descending next to you that you're turning into. That said, I'm with you that 99.9% of the time simply looking in the direction that you're planning to turn is sufficient for safety. However, if your instructor wants it that way then I can't see the harm and it's not exactly a bad idea. I may try this next time I'm flying and see how much benefit it provides.

Now, turning BEFORE looking is something I would say is NOT sufficiently safe. Lowering that wing without looking cuts out too much of your visibility.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Let me see if I have this straight -- your instructor wants clearing turns before you turn the plane? Or just to lift a wing to see in the direction you're turning before turning in a high wing plane? If the former, I'd say it's silly. If the latter, I'd say it's mandatory -- the visibility into the turn in most high wing planes is terrible (those with the leading edge well aft like the Cessna Cardinals excepted).
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Probably more the latter. What is wrong with the viz out the side of a 172, especially in level flight? I can look out the window and see where I am going. Could there be an airplane blocked by the wing that would actually present a conflict possibility? Unlikely, I am not flying formation with anyone.
 
I don't do clearing turns but my wing is 20 feet behind me and visibility is not obstructed. In my training days when I flew a C172 we always lifted the wing to look before turning.

After my PPL I transitioned to all Piper products and with the low wing the clearing thing stopped. IMO that's the biggest advantage of low wing aircraft..not having to turn left before turning right and vise versa.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Let me see if I have this straight -- your instructor wants clearing turns before you turn the plane? Or just to lift a wing to see in the direction you're turning before turning in a high wing plane? If the former, I'd say it's silly. If the latter, I'd say it's mandatory -- the visibility into the turn in most high wing planes is terrible (those with the leading edge well aft like the Cessna Cardinals excepted).
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OK, my opinion of the odds of doing this meaning anything notwithstanding, what are you looking for when instructing in a 172? Are we just talking lift the wing on the inside of the turn say 15 degrees before turning?
 
If this is needed for a high wing, why not a low wing? After all, if you don't lower the wing on the turn side a little before making the actual turn, you could turn into climbing traffic!

Honestly, I fly a high wing and I give a good look and then turn. I don't lift the wing first unless I know something is there I want to check first, it's a crowded airspace, or there is some other cause for concern before turning.
 
alfadog said:
Probably more the latter. What is wrong with the viz out the side of a 172, especially in level flight? I can look out the window and see where I am going.
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When I have the seat cranked high enough that I can see over the glare shield in a 172, the top of the side window is a little too low for a good look to the side. If I have the seat cranked down low enough for that not to be a factor, or duck my head, a plane only slightly above me and descending is still blocked by the wing.

Could there be an airplane blocked by the wing that would actually present a conflict possibility?
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Absolutely yes -- BTDT. Got the you-know-what scared out of me one hazy summer afternoon about 35 years ago turning crosswind in the traffic pattern at Bowman Field in Louisville KY. Probably as close as I ever came to a mid-air, and never saw the other plane until I rolled into the turn and it was too late to maneuver to avoid -- sheer luck we didn't collide.

Unlikely, I am not flying formation with anyone.
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Most mid-airs involve planes not trying to fly formation with each other.

BTW, most examiners look for this so-called "chicken wing" maneuver on PP practical tests, and will spank you if you don't do it.
 
bullwinkle said:
If this is needed for a high wing, why not a low wing? After all, if you don't lower the wing on the turn side a little before making the actual turn, you could turn into climbing traffic!
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The difference in a low-wing plane is that lowering the wing to roll into the turn clears rather than further blocks your view while rolling in.
 
alfadog said:
I would like some input from the group as to whether you routinely make clearing turns in just normal VFR flight. Especially if you are in a high-wing airplane. Do you lift a wing or both wings before turning? Which one? How high? How about low-wings?

All input is appreciated.
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I'm thinking that instructional flight and normal transportation flights are different.

On instructional flights one is often calling out and doing various maneuvers. The CFI says do this, student proceeds to do it. In this case, it makes a lot of sense to take a look around before plunging into it since you didn't know it was coming and didn't have a chance to preview the airspace.

On transportation flights, one is planning their next action minutes in advance. I'm thinking that the best way to clear the area is to start paying attention to what's out there well in advance of getting there or doing anything. Even being vectored by ATC, one often has a sense of where they are going and even better, can hear likely traffic.

I've found myself on the rare occasion where I'm demoing an impromptu maneuver for someone, or where I've given the stick to a passenger, clearing the area before proceeding. Sometimes I forget too.
 
Why not give the instructor the controls and ask him/her to show you what he wants or is talking about?
 
Yes, it only takes a second to lift the wing and check your blind spot. I've seen students focus mostly straight ahead and go into a 30 degree bank in the pattern like there would never be anyone there.
 
It depends. I'm sure the hell not going to beat up a pilot that already knows how to fly for not doing it on every single turn. Some instructors fail to understand there is a difference between giving someone training that already has a clue versus their own students starting from scratch.
 
I was taught to always lift a wing and take a look to the side and behind, especially on climb out before turning cross wind.
 
alfadog said:
I went up with a new-to-me (LOL) CFII a couple weeks ago to get going again on my IR. We were in a club 172M. One thing he dinged me on was my failure to make clearing turns during climb-out turns and in level flight turns. Frankly, I never do. I keep the nose on the horizon during climb-out for visibility but do not make clearing turns. He wanted me to do it all the time. Not 90-degree clearing turns like you might make for maneuvering flight like stalls, etc. but at least lift the wing to see, what, an airplane three feet away? I think it is an over-abundance of caution but wonder, is that mostly just me?

I would like some input from the group as to whether you routinely make clearing turns in just normal VFR flight. Especially if you are in a high-wing airplane. Do you lift a wing or both wings before turning? Which one? How high? How about low-wings?

All input is appreciated.
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We'll, does the club have a low-wing IFR bird?

It would really help too if everyone would keep their lights on down low, near an airport or while maneuvering. I see many not using them for takeoff or landing, possibly to save on bulbs.

My lights are on from takeoff to cruise and then back on for descent. If cruising below 5000' or congested airspace, they are on continuously.
 
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In a 172 or 182, yes, I lift a wing before any large turn. In a 177, I do that if it's out of habit…the wing is further back and you can see 90 deg. I also won't turn more than 90 deg (plus a little fudge for WCA) at once in any high wing.

In a low wing, it's all different.

You're not looking for an airplane 3 feet away. You're looking for one headed for the same spot you're about to turn into. Say, you're turning crosswind to remain in the pattern, and someone else is aiming for the downwind, the same distance away you are.

You can get away with some very substantial collision avoidance maneuvers climbing out at 75 KIAS or faster, but it's a whole lot better not to need them in the first place. And you should practice those canyon turns before really needing them. You can turn a 172 on a dime in conditions quite close to what you have during a standard (Vy) climb out, but you can't be wimpy.
 
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alfadog said:
I went up with a new-to-me (LOL) CFII a couple weeks ago to get going again on my IR. We were in a club 172M. One thing he dinged me on was my failure to make clearing turns during climb-out turns and in level flight turns. Frankly, I never do. I keep the nose on the horizon during climb-out for visibility but do not make clearing turns. He wanted me to do it all the time. Not 90-degree clearing turns like you might make for maneuvering flight like stalls, etc. but at least lift the wing to see, what, an airplane three feet away? I think it is an over-abundance of caution but wonder, is that mostly just me?

I would like some input from the group as to whether you routinely make clearing turns in just normal VFR flight. Especially if you are in a high-wing airplane. Do you lift a wing or both wings before turning? Which one? How high? How about low-wings?

All input is appreciated.
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I was taught slight, wing-up (high wing) or wing-dip (low wing) in the direction of the turn, just in the chance there is an aircraft descending or ascending in the blind spot.

Any instructor I fly with I tell them, "you can't offend me, I am paying you to teach me, not just ride-along". I think I learn at least something each flight.
 
Yup. Always raise the wing and look before you turn. For me there's some muscle memory connection from the habit of doing this with renewing my attention to a good, proper scan.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, most examiners look for this so-called "chicken wing" maneuver on PP practical tests, and will spank you if you don't do it.
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Thanks, Ron. BTW, why "chicken wing". I Googled it and the best I could come up with was the below:

http://www.chickenwingscomics.com/

2013-09-24-cw0728.jpg
 
I dunno, I always thought of that maneuver as more of a "dog leg" than a chicken wing. But I guess that term is already taken.
 
alfadog said:
Thanks, Ron. BTW, why "chicken wing".
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Beats me. It was someone to whom I was giving a flight review a couple of decades ago who introduced me to the term, which I've heard repeatedly since. I'd certainly never heard it before, although I'd learned to do it from Day 1 in the back seat of a Cub. Maybe it's because turning in a direction you haven't cleared is like playing chicken, and you're moving your wing to avoid that? :dunno:
 
I'll usually scan the area, dip the wings a little, then turn. I'll admit I don't do this as often as I should but I'll usually do it in areas where there is a large concentration of student training, arrivals into JFK/LGA/EWR, and the north and south shores of Long Island. While climbing, I'll periodically decrease my rate of climb to see what's in front of me
 
jordane93 said:
I'll usually scan the area, dip the wings a little, then turn. I'll admit I don't do this as often as I should but I'll usually do it in areas where there is a large concentration of student training, arrivals into JFK/LGA/EWR, and the north and south shores of Long Island. While climbing, I'll periodically decrease my rate of climb to see what's in front of me
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I assume you fly a low-wing?
 
Ron Levy said:
Beats me. It was someone to whom I was giving a flight review a couple of decades ago who introduced me to the term, which I've heard repeatedly since. I'd certainly never heard it before, although I'd learned to do it from Day 1 in the back seat of a Cub. Maybe it's because turning in a direction you haven't cleared is like playing chicken, and you're moving your wing to avoid that? :dunno:
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I figured it had something to do with this:

 
I don't. I just lean forward and look. I can see every bit of 90 degrees which is more than enough. The reason I don't is passengers tend not to like it and neither do I. You're going to have to raise the wing maybe 15 degrees to really get a good look. Then bank it back the other way to do the turn. So a total of 45 degrees of banking to establish a standard rate turn. I hate flying with other pilots that are constantly doing stuff like this. Dropping the nose, pitching it up, yawing, wing lifting, etc. it just wears me out and makes me nervous. Of course they always have a reason. I like a smooth operator.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I don't. I just lean forward and look. I can see every bit of 90 degrees which is more than enough. The reason I don't is passengers tend not to like it and neither do I. You're going to have to raise the wing maybe 15 degrees to really get a good look.
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Hardly that much. In any event, the FAA expects it on every turn in a high wing plane where the wing blocks your view (not necessary, say, on a DHC-8), and DPE's look for it on practical tests. Caveat aviator.
 
No, it's only 5 deg or so, unless you're turning much too low. 300 ft below TPA at lowest. And a 30 deg bank is a LOT faster than standard rate in a 172. Should take less than 15 deg for standard rate even at 100 KIAS. Standard rate turns in the pattern aren't a good idea unless you're on an instrument approach above decision height.
 
Ron Levy said:
Hardly that much. In any event, the FAA expects it on every turn in a high wing plane where the wing blocks your view (not necessary, say, on a DHC-8), and DPE's look for it on practical tests. Caveat aviator.
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I do clearing turns when preparing for maneuvering. Never have lifted a wing before I make a turn from straight and level flight even with a DPE and they have never said a word.:dunno:
 
MAKG1 said:
No, it's only 5 deg or so, unless you're turning much too low. 300 ft below TPA at lowest. And a 30 deg bank is a LOT faster than standard rate in a 172. Should take less than 15 deg for standard rate even at 100 KIAS. Standard rate turns in the pattern aren't a good idea unless you're on an instrument approach above decision height.
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Let's say we are mostly worried about aircraft inside of 1/2 a mile. If we raise the wing 5 degrees then even at 1/2 a mile (2640') you can only see up an additional 230'. If you did the same to 15 degrees then at 1/2 a mile you could see up an additional 707'. What is your logic for 5 degrees?

What I mean't by 30 degrees of bank is not that you were ever holding 30 degrees. Just that if you bank the wrong direction and then turn back to a standard rate 15 degree turn the total amount banked to establish the turn is 45 degrees.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I don't. I just lean forward and look. I can see every bit of 90 degrees which is more than enough.
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This is what I've always done, lean forward and look out the side of the windshield. My assumption is this clears me up to the leading edge of my wing. Any other conflicts that this wont find would be someone descending onto me from above or someone overtaking me from behind. Both of those seem like I would have difficulty seeing them if I were to raise a wing only 10 - 15 degrees or so.

See the attached picture for the viewing angle I'm talking about.

That said, this sounds like a "how much can it really hurt?" sort of thing, I will try this and likely adopt this practice as well. At the very least it gives you a second to double check what you're turning into.
 

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Alexb2000 said:
Let's say we are mostly worried about aircraft inside of 1/2 a mile. If we raise the wing 5 degrees then even at 1/2 a mile (2640') you can only see up an additional 230'. If you did the same to 15 degrees then at 1/2 a mile you could see up an additional 707'. What is your logic for 5 degrees?

What I mean't by 30 degrees of bank is not that you were ever holding 30 degrees. Just that if you bank the wrong direction and then turn back to a standard rate 15 degree turn the total amount banked to establish the turn is 45 degrees.
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707 feet is total overkill unless you're turning crosswind at 100 AGL. ESPECIALLY if you're using it as an excuse not to look.

I don't know how you can take 15 deg, subtract -15, and get 45. A more reasonable calculation is 20 deg - (-5 deg), half what you're complaining about.

And you need to be looking out further than 1/2 mile. The close in stuff you should know from earlier in your climb. It's the guy on the B-52 downwind you don't want to cut off.
 
MAKG1 said:
707 feet is total overkill unless you're turning crosswind at 100 AGL. ESPECIALLY if you're using it as an excuse not to look.

I don't know how you can take 15 deg, subtract -15, and get 45. A more reasonable calculation is 20 deg - (-5 deg), half what you're complaining about.

And you need to be looking out further than 1/2 mile. The close in stuff you should know from earlier in your climb. It's the guy on the B-52 downwind you don't want to cut off.
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I don't think we're understanding each other. No biggie.
 
bnt83 said:
How about with very shallow climbs during filthy hot weather? I can't see anything directly in front of me so I tend turn and climb over terrain I've looked at.
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Not that much of an issue in South Florida but I can see your point in more uneven terrain.
 
MAKG1 said:
707 feet is total overkill unless you're turning crosswind at 100 AGL. ESPECIALLY if you're using it as an excuse not to look.

I don't know how you can take 15 deg, subtract -15, and get 45. A more reasonable calculation is 20 deg - (-5 deg), half what you're complaining about.

And you need to be looking out further than 1/2 mile. The close in stuff you should know from earlier in your climb. It's the guy on the B-52 downwind you don't want to cut off.
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From straight and level you bank 15d to the left to clear, then 15d back to level then 15d to enter a shallow turn to the right. 45d.

° = alt-0176 (on the numpad only); definitely more trouble than it is worth on a laptop.
 
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Alexb2000 said:
I do clearing turns when preparing for maneuvering. Never have lifted a wing before I make a turn from straight and level flight even with a DPE and they have never said a word.:dunno:
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You're a very lucky pilot. But luck eventually runs out. I suggest you develop a new habit in this regard.
 
Ron Levy said:
You're a very lucky pilot. But luck eventually runs out. I suggest you develop a new habit in this regard.
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I think that's a reach Ron. I see very few pilots doing it and statistically speaking it's extremely unlikely it would ever matter.

Could you point me the part of the PTS that states a pilot must pick a wing up before making a normal turn from straight and level flight?
 
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