Do you log it?

DFH65

DFH65

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DFH65
So your out flying with a friend and he says, "your plane." You fly for 20-30 minutes. Do you log that time?

For example I have a PSEL and have flown in a friends J3 a few times probably and hour or so of stick time. Would you log that or not bother?

I don't really plan on adding anything other than a tailwheel endorsement and possibly a sea plane rating at some point so the hours are virtually meaningless the only value I could see at some point might be for insurance purposes.

Have some twin time too but guessing I can't log that as I am not rated for a twin.

If you were to log it after the fact how would you note that in the logbook since time has passed?
 
DFH65 said:
So your out flying with a friend and he says, "your plane." You fly for 20-30 minutes. Do you log that time?

For example I have a PSEL and have flown in a friends J3 a few times probably and hour or so of stick time. Would you log that or not bother?

I don't really plan on adding anything other than a tailwheel endorsement and possibly a sea plane rating at some point so the hours are virtually meaningless the only value I could see at some point might be for insurance purposes.

Have some twin time too but guessing I can't log that as I am not rated for a twin.

If you were to log it after the fact how would you note that in the logbook since time has passed?
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If you were going for an airline interview that may raise some questions. If that is not the case, log away! Since you are not multi rated, you are correct, you couldn't log that unless you were with an MEI. Since you aren't going airlines(or at least that is what I gathered from your post) I wouldn't worry about going back to log 20 minutes of flight time. If so, I guess you could use your best guess as to when the flight took place. Not sure if you have a tailwheel endorsement or not. If so I know you can log PIC time while working for your endorsement with a CFI in the plane. If a buddy lets you fly it and you don't have an endorsement, I don't think you can log PIC time then.
 
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I wouldn't bother to log it, I'd wait till you had your endorsment.

I don't understand what the airlines have to do with anything here, log it per the FARs, and if anything be conservative on when you log it.
 
Do pilots and copilots in a 747 split their log? No. For any flight, there can be only one PIC. One of you is a passenger.
 
Does the FO log PIC if the FO is the PF?
 
CTLSi said:
Do pilots and copilots in a 747 split their log? No. For any flight, there can be only one PIC. One of you is a passenger.
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Actually they do split time. Not that these guys really care about logging time anymore but when my dad flies (767-400) and the captain takes a break for a few hours and he acts as a relief captain then he could certainly log that as PIC.
 
Personally I wouldn't log it till I could act as PIC (tailwheel endorsment)
 
CTLSi said:
For any flight, there can be only one PIC.
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Wrong.

If an instructor is training someone who is already rated in the aircraft...

...the student logs PIC since he or she is the sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he or she is rated.

...the instructor simultaneously logs PIC time while acting as an authorized instructor in flight.

You may quibble that only one is REALLY PIC, but this discussion is about logging time.
 
James331 said:
Personally I wouldn't log it till I could act as PIC (tailwheel endorsment)
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That sounds like a gray area.

One might have the rating required to fly a J3 (Single Engine Land), but just not have the requisite endorsement.

So, you could argue that you are in fact "sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which you are rated", and hence qualified to log it as PIC.

Could go either way, but I'd probably log it in that situation, unless there's legal interpretation to the contrary.

The twin, on the other hand, no.
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
Not sure if you have a tailwheel endorsement or not. If so I know you can log PIC time while working for your endorsement with a CFI in the plane. If a buddy lets you fly it and you don't have an endorsement, I don't think you can log PIC time then.
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You can't ACT as PIC without the endorsement (or time logged from the olden days) but you can log all day long as long as you are rated (ASEL often covers it) and manipulating.

Too bad there isn't some kind of flow chart to cover this stuff. ;)

But back to the original question - what would be the advantage of not logging it? Save ink?

Insurance companies like big numbers. Big numbers come from adding up a lot of little numbers.
 
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CTLSi said:
Do pilots and copilots in a 747 split their log? No. For any flight, there can be only one PIC. One of you is a passenger.
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Doesn't mean both can't log the time as PIC at the same time if the FO is properly rated.

Otherwise, I am not sure what you are getting at.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Why is that?
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Knew a guy that logged a bunch of time in a Cessna 310 just riding along. When he went to his airline interview, one of the guys on the other end of the table asked him about flying the Cessna 310. When he couldn't answer simple systems questions about it, he looked like a complete idiot. He isn't employed by that airline by the way.

As far as the logging goes, I stand corrected. Here it is straight from the FAA.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2009/herman - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
 
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The question was really a "Do YOU?" not "Can you?" Thanks for all the responses.
 
DFH65 said:
The question was really a "Do YOU?" not "Can you?" Thanks for all the responses.
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Since I have the endorsement, yes.

Would I have done it when I didn't have the endorsement, yes and no.

If I was doing take-offs and landings in it, yeah I'd log it.
If he let me have it during cruise flight... not really valuable tailwheel time so no I wouldn't log it.

Disclaimer: All personal opinion
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
Knew a guy that logged a bunch of time in a Cessna 310 just riding along. When he went to his airline interview, one of the guys on the other end of the table asked him about flying the Cessna 310. When he couldn't answer simple systems questions about it, he looked like a complete idiot. He isn't employed by that airline by the way.

As far as the logging goes, I stand corrected. Here it is straight from the FAA.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2009/herman - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
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Okay, the question raised being actual competency.
 
Answer to the posted question: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Probably more likely to log it in an unfamiliar aircraft (including one I don't have the endorsement for) than a familiar one.
 
I have no desire to go airlines. Yet I log everything I legally can.
 
Lesson to be learned: if going into an airline interview, know the systems of any aircraft you've logged significant time in.
 
James331 said:
I wouldn't bother to log it, I'd wait till you had your endorsment.
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Why wait?
I don't understand what the airlines have to do with anything here, log it per the FARs, and if anything be conservative on when you log it.
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Exactly, and since the regs say you can log it, why not? It might just make it easier later on to get insurance on a TW if you've logged a few more TW hours.
 
CTLSi said:
Do pilots and copilots in a 747 split their log? No. For any flight, there can be only one PIC. One of you is a passenger.
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picard-facepalm2.jpg

It's frustrating to go over this with the same posters time and time again. CTLSi's understanding of the regulations is, well, incomplete.

Logging PIC time and acting as PIC are two entirely separate issues. One can log PIC time without being the PIC or even being a required crewmember, and one can act as PIC without being able to log PIC time. If we have two PP-ASEL's, one of whom fully qualified and acting as the PIC in a C-172, and the other is flying the plane visually from the right seat, the left seater is acting as PIC but cannot log the time, while the right seater can log it as PIC time even though he is acting as PIC. This is well established in the regulations and numerous FAA Chief Counsel letter interpretations.

As for the 2-person crew of a 747 in air carrier service, the PIC is per 61.51(e)(2) logging PIC time for the entire flight no matter which of the two is flying. The F/O will normally be logging SIC time, with the possible exception of logging PIC time if the F/O holds a PIC type rating in the 747 (most don't) and is the sole manipulator of the controls for that time, in which case both pilots will be logging PIC time while that PIC-type-rated F/O is flying the plane. Note, however, that since a C-172 does not normally require two pilots, this issue will not arise in the OP's situation unless the pilot flying is hooded.
 
The way I read it I should be able to act as PIC on the plane I'm logging PIC time on.

Now my first solo was in a tailwheel so I don't really have a dog in this flight.

Are you probably OK to log it, most likely, but wouldn't put that in my logbook.
 
James331 said:
Personally I wouldn't log it till I could act as PIC (tailwheel endorsment)
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That's your prerogative, but there's no FAA reason not to log it, and there are some reasons why it's useful. And that's why I recommend logging everything which the FAA says is legal to log.
 
FastEddieB said:
Wrong.
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CTLSi was right about there being only one PIC -- only one person can be...

the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
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...as the term PIC is defined in 14 CFR 1.1.
Just remember that being PIC and logging PIC time are separate issues governed by separate regulations, and it is possible to be logging PIC time without being the PIC, and to be PIC without being able to log PIC time.

If an instructor is training someone who is already rated in the aircraft...

...the student logs PIC since he or she is the sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he or she is rated.

...the instructor simultaneously logs PIC time while acting as an authorized instructor in flight.
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Correct -- but only one of this can be the PIC even if both are simultaneously logging PIC time.

You may quibble that only one is REALLY PIC...
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Quibble away, but the FAA and NTSB are agreed that "[r]egardless of who is manipulating the controls of the aircraft during an instructional flight, or what degree of proficiency the student has attained, the flight instructor is always deemed to be the pilot-in command." Administrator v. Hamre, 3 NTSB 28, 31 (1977). But, of course, that's not the case here since we're talking about a PP PIC and a rated pilot passenger.

, but this discussion is about logging time.
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Exactly, and thus being PIC has little or nothing to do with whether you can or cannot log PIC time.
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FastEddieB said:
That sounds like a gray area.

One might have the rating required to fly a J3 (Single Engine Land), but just not have the requisite endorsement.

So, you could argue that you are in fact "sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which you are rated", and hence qualified to log it as PIC.

Could go either way, but I'd probably log it in that situation, unless there's legal interpretation to the contrary.
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Nothing gray or "either way" about it -- this one's been asked and answered repeatedly by the FAA Chief Counsel. 61.31 additional training endorsements are required only to act as PIC; only the applicable category, class, and type ratings are required to log PIC time as sole manipulator under 61.51(3)(1)(i).

The twin, on the other hand, no.
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Everybody's got that one right -- no rating, no logging PIC time.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Since I have the endorsement, yes.

Would I have done it when I didn't have the endorsement, yes and no.

If I was doing take-offs and landings in it, yeah I'd log it.
If he let me have it during cruise flight... not really valuable tailwheel time so no I wouldn't log it.

Disclaimer: All personal opinion
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As I said to the other poster, that's your prerogative, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing it, and several reasons why it can help you down the road.
 
James331 said:
The way I read it I should be able to act as PIC on the plane I'm logging PIC time on.
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I don't know what you're reading which says that, but either it isn't from the FAA or you're misreading it.
Are you probably OK to log it, most likely,
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Not most likely OK -- absolutely for sure OK.

but wouldn't put that in my logbook.
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That's your choice, but please don't tell anyone it's illegal or even possibly not legal because that would be incorrect. It's legal. Period.
 
Ron Levy said:
Only if the F/O holds a PIC type rating, and most don't.
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These days, almost all F/Os do. That said, logging the PIC while sole manipulator isn't typically done, since it's well known that you'll be laughed out of any interview situation if you attempt to do so.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's your choice, but please don't tell anyone it's illegal or even possibly not legal because that would be incorrect. It's legal. Period.
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Where did I say it was illegal Ron?

I just think it's BS to log PIC time in a plane you can't actually act as PIC in, that's a James thing and common sense thing, the FARs don't always agree with me or common sense for that matter.
 
kayoh190 said:
These days, almost all F/Os do. That said, logging the PIC while sole manipulator isn't typically done, since it's well known that you'll be laughed out of any interview situation if you attempt to do so.
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It's my impression that most in air carrier service have only an SIC type rating (and you can't log sole manipulator PIC time on that basis), but I could be wrong.
 
James331 said:
Where did I say it was illegal Ron?
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You said it was "most likely" legal, which suggests it might not be, and could be taken to mean there is an uncertain legal risk in logging it. That is simply not true -- it is most definitely completely legal, and there is no legal risk in logging it.

I just think it's BS to log PIC time in a plane you can't actually act as PIC in, that's a James thing and common sense thing,
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You are entitled to that opinion, but please don't give even the hint of suggestion that logging IAW 61.51(e)(1)(i) isn't 100% legal. That's a professional responsibility thing about being an instructor.
 
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