Do you log it?

Ron Levy said:
with the possible exception of logging PIC time if the F/O holds a PIC type rating in the 747 (most don't)
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Actually, I would say that most DO in fact have a PIC type rating. A rated pilot must be at the controls at all times and unless the long haul flights (most are) have two Captains and two First officers (most don't) the First Officers must be type rated.
 
kayoh190 said:
These days, almost all F/Os do. That said, logging the PIC while sole manipulator isn't typically done, since it's well known that you'll be laughed out of any interview situation if you attempt to do so.
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What would they say in the interview? When you get to that level, do they really not care too much if you were the FO or PIC, but rather just how much time you have in type, since most of the time both pilots alternate PF/PNF?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Actually, I would say that most DO in fact have a PIC type rating. A rated pilot must be at the controls at all times and unless the long haul flights (most are) have two Captains and two First officers (most don't) the First Officers must be type rated.
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I know that's true for you, but I doubt it's as true for anything outside your wide-body long-haul operations -- say, in a CRJ flying five legs in one day or even a 757 going JFK-ORD and back (and I suspect that's the majority of pilots working in the airlines). If I'm wrong, please let me know.
 
Ron,

Some new rules came down the pipe for 121 operators last year, which is what's likely causing the confusion. In a nutshell, *all* new FOs hired after August 1st, 2013 must be issued full PIC type ratings. Those already flying with SIC types must be issued the PIC types by January 1st, 2016. Here's a relevant document if you'd like to look at it:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.225.pdf

The companies that were using SIC typed FOs simply started giving PIC type rides to their FOs at their next recurrent training event. So by now, I'd guess that most FOs have gone through the PIC type ride - I dunno how many stragglers there are. Regardless - everyone flying 121 needs to have a full PIC type by 2016.
 
dans2992 said:
What would they say in the interview? When you get to that level, do they really not care too much if you were the FO or PIC, but rather just how much time you have in type, since most of the time both pilots alternate PF/PNF?
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In my experience, it's the opposite.

At the airlines, time in type isn't actually a huge deal. They're going to send you through a full initial in whatever equipment you're being hired into, and since everyone starts at the bottom as an FO, they just need to know that you can fly, that you're trainable, and that you're not going to be a nightmare to spend a four day trip on the road with. :)

At this moment in the hiring cycle, the majors aren't hurting for qualified pilots, so there's still a premium placed on turbine PIC. If you read the fine print on the various job applications, they define the PIC as being the person that actually signs for the aircraft. They're looking for people that have been 'in command' of a turbine airplane - essentially Captains making Captain like decisions. Someone that got some stick time in the right seat of a King Air, or a PIC-typed FO at an airline, doesn't meet the spirit of what they're looking for, even if the FAA says it's legal to log the time.

So the recruiters see it differently than the feds, but they're the ones offering the job, so you've gotta play the game. I've heard that some people keep two versions of their logbook - one with the sole manipulator PIC removed for the purposes of an interview. I've never actually met anyone that does this, and I'll bet most people only keep one. Once you get to the point where you're applying for these jobs, you're not logging for the FAA anymore anyway. Therefore the conservative approach is to keep a logbook with time that won't raise any eyebrows in an interview. Besides, when you're rolling in with thousands upon thousands of hours, that 17.3 of dubious King Air PIC from back in '99 doesn't make much difference anyway. ;)
 
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Ron Levy said:
I know that's true for you, but I doubt it's as true for anything outside your wide-body long-haul operations -- say, in a CRJ flying five legs in one day or even a 757 going JFK-ORD and back (and I suspect that's the majority of pilots working in the airlines). If I'm wrong, please let me know.
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Re read your post #27 for context.
 
kayoh190 said:
Some new rules came down the pipe for 121 operators last year, which is what's likely causing the confusion.
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The airlines I'm most familiar with have been giving the PIC type rating to their F/Os during recurrent training and initial training for 2+ years now. Should be just about everyone typed by now.
 
kayoh190 said:
Ron,

Some new rules came down the pipe for 121 operators last year, which is what's likely causing the confusion. In a nutshell, *all* new FOs hired after August 1st, 2013 must be issued full PIC type ratings. Those already flying with SIC types must be issued the PIC types by January 1st, 2016. Here's a relevant document if you'd like to look at it:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.225.pdf

The companies that were using SIC typed FOs simply started giving PIC type rides to their FOs at their next recurrent training event. So by now, I'd guess that most FOs have gone through the PIC type ride - I dunno how many stragglers there are. Regardless - everyone flying 121 needs to have a full PIC type by 2016.
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Guess this is more fallout from the Colgan wreck. Thanks for the reference.
 
Also just looked up a few folks I know are flying the 787 as FOs. They're fully PiC typed. Pull up some folks you know Ron, flying whatever, and you'll probably see similar. Hell, if the FAA is going to ignore Congress on aviator's records, might as well use the website, huh? LOL

I may have to ask one of them, but I noticed that they all have a limitation of no Circling Approaches in anything other than VMC on most of the big iron they've flown. What triggers that?

Lack of need, obviously, but how or when would it be removed? Just a curiosity thing for me, not that important.
 
I'd log it but I am known to be overcautious :D More likely just go with what the guys are saying.
 
denverpilot said:
I may have to ask one of them, but I noticed that they all have a limitation of no Circling Approaches in anything other than VMC on most of the big iron they've flown. What triggers that?
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That's the airline's choice. Most, if not all, US airlines choose not to do circle-to-land approaches so they don't provide the CTL training and the CTL maneuver is not done on the type rides so the restriction is included on the type rating. Operationally that means that we can't CTL unless the reported weather is at least 1000'-3SM.

My B757/B767 type rating does not have the restriction. The CTL training was a joke, though. We learned now to do the CTL from the LOC 4R to land 31R at JFK. Only that one approach. It was a rote procedure. Turn 45° right, fly 20 sec, turn 45° left, use the extended centerline on the map to judge your turn to final, etc. Really worthless in the real world.

Back to the topic... While the FAA and 14 CFR 61.51 says that a type-rated airline F/O can log PIC time during the time that he is the sole manipulator of the controls nobody does because it is worthless. We're already ATPs so there is no FAA requirement for more PIC time and we can't put that PIC time on our resume or airline applications because the airlines won't consider it as anything other than SIC time. We log it all as SIC time.
 
Once I passed 2k hours, I stopped logging individual flights and I do monthly or 6 months summary with just my major trips and I group my approaches or trips around the pattern as a group for each type plane. Other than for currency requirements I am very poor at logging each flight hour.
 
winrose46 said:
Once I passed 2k hours, I stopped logging individual flights and I do monthly or 6 months summary with just my major trips and I group my approaches or trips around the pattern as a group for each type plane. Other than for currency requirements I am very poor at logging each flight hour.
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One word of caution -- you cannot use for FAA purposes anything which isn't logged per 61.51, and that means logging by each flight. Yes, you can log as one flight a trip of ABC-DEF-GHI on one day, but when you start logging monthly or semi-annual summaries it doesn't meet the FAA standard. So, as long as Gene logs enough of it individually to take care of the recent experience requirements, that's fine, but if he's planning to go for ATP some time in the future and needs time to meet the ATP requirements, those summaries won't do for that purpose.
 
Ron Levy said:
One word of caution -- you cannot use for FAA purposes anything which isn't logged per 61.51, and that means logging by each flight. Yes, you can log as one flight a trip of ABC-DEF-GHI on one day, but when you start logging monthly or semi-annual summaries it doesn't meet the FAA standard. So, as long as Gene logs enough of it individually to take care of the recent experience requirements, that's fine, but if he's planning to go for ATP some time in the future and needs time to meet the ATP requirements, those summaries won't do for that purpose.
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My master log was summarized monthly for 20+years. When I went to work for the FAA they went through my log books and never said anything. :dunno:
 
dans2992 said:
Does the FO log PIC if the FO is the PF?
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No, the FO never logs PIC time.

iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
 
jonnyjetprop said:
No, the FO never logs PIC time.

iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
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However, per subparagraph (i) above the quoted subparagraph, the F/O is legal to log PIC time when flying the plane if s/he holds a PIC type rating in that aircraft, even if s/he is not acting as PIC, and it seems that these days, most of them do hold that rating (and they soon all will). Whether they actually do that or not (and some airline folks above have said they don't) is another story, but it would be FAA-legal for them to log it as PIC time.
 
at my age an ATP will not be in my future after 35 + years of flying. Just trying to pass the physical which I seem to fail each year and I receive a special issuance good for a year until I go through all the mess again.
 
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