Do you let other pilots land your plane?

txflyer

txflyer

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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
I feel bad because when I give another pilot a ride like today a Mooney pilot who thinks he wants a 180 I let him taxi and fly mine like a maniac but I did the take off and landing. He said he has about 60 hours tailwheel time in Citabrias and Cubs.

I wanted to let him try to land it but the couple of times I have tried it in the past and let other pilots try it got kinda hairy.

I'm not an instructor so I'm not ready and steady on the controls like they are accustomed to doing. I've flown right seat in mine that's no problem but maybe it's just because it's a 180 and kind of tricky. Anyway, should I loosen up or what's customary? Cross your fingers and hope the insurance is paid up? :lol:
 
Once but the guy was a military test pilot and very familiar with EABs. Most pilots I'll let take off if they ask but no landing.

With the Velocity and one center stick, no way I'm letting them take off or land.
 
Depends, I've given a ton of dual in tailwheels and whatnot, but for my 185 it's really a decision I make based off the person. If someone is like "hey let me land I, no prob, I got like 20hrs in a cub" I'll probably say no. If on the other hand the person has more of a student mindset I'm more likley to walk then through a guided landing.

As far as straight letting someone else land my plane, I can only think of a few people I would trust that to.
 
If I believe that someone is tailwheel competent, yea. If not, I will be helping on the pedals.

Or, consider grass...

I had my sister along for a ride - as we were crossing the fence, I moved my feet from the floor to the pedals - and I hear "Oh, thank God!" over the intercom. She saw me move my feet.

But I ain't no CFI so doing what I do will probably result in certain death.

Plus, I just drive an LSA - not something big and hard to land like a Cessna 150.
 
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I think if mine were a 182, I'd have no problem asking him if he feels confident enough to want to land it.

But the wagon has a moment to it right after you touch down where you gotta be quick on the rudder and not let any oscillation set in. Keep it centered during that grey area where you're not flying and you're not driving. It's crucial you get on top of any deviation from centerline quick when you're at that speed right at that transition time before the tail comes down.

That's ground loop territory. That ten seconds when you're not flying and you're not driving. It's hard to jump in and take over rudder and yoke if it's all mucked up. You can't just say "my airplane" because it's all over by then. I've got a profound respect for instructors, they've got bigger cohones than I have. ;)
 
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Only if they're better qualified than me. In 20 years I've allowed 2 guys to land my 180 while I rode right seat.
 
I don't think I'd have a problem with any current 180/185 owners taking full control Stew if they can demonstrate basic skills like how to walk, talk, or make buzzing sounds and airplane motions with their hands. :lol:
 
That needs to be pre arranged protocol. I am "that guy" that landed the Arrow I am in a partnership with right seat. But, it was understood I had boo coo hours in a Turbo Arrow and I was sought out as a potential partner at the time.
 
Sac Arrow said:
That needs to be pre arranged protocol. I am "that guy" that landed the Arrow I am in a partnership with right seat. But, it was understood I had boo coo hours in a Turbo Arrow and I was sought out as a potential partner at the time.
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Yeah you're right I should be more clear as to exactly what we're going to do.

At the pre-flight I should have told him "I'll let you taxi us out and I'll do the take off and landing and give you as much control time as possible beyond those two phases."

Or something like that... :dunno:
 
I've let numerous people fly and land my plane, probably a dozen total. 5 of them at Gaston's because they'd never landed at Gaston's. (or in Andrew's case, because he'd never landed on grass).

But I don't have a tailwheel...if I had a tailwheel...ummmm....no...probably not.
 
I don't own a plane but, out of respect to the owner, I would politely decline and let him or her land his or her own plane... It's probably best for all parties involved! I'm still stunned the rental place gives me the keys each time.
 
No ,I let a Cherokee pilot land my 172 ,it cost me a nose wheel fairing. My Liberty can be a hand full for pilots who have never flown one.
 
I have had people offer to let me land their plane, and in general I decline. If its an aircraft I have flown a lot and am comfortable in I have landed it though. Depends on the situation.
 
I was just about to chime in how I'd politely decline to land someone else's plane but then I remembered that I once actually took the controls and landed. Owner was more embarrassed than angry...
 
Tons of other folks have landed my 182. Most of my friends are high timers.
 
I have no problem letting friends of mine land my plane, as the above poster many of my friends are high time people with some airline/corporate experience and very current in GA flying. Most have also flown a 182 before anyway
 
I have not let anyone land my plane... either the one I own or any rentals that I have signed out in my name. I have one friend with 2500 hours but it is all from the 70s and early 80s. I think he could do it just fine, but I am still not comfortable with it.
 
frfly172 said:
No ,I let a Cherokee pilot land my 172 ,it cost me a nose wheel fairing. My Liberty can be a hand full for pilots who have never flown one.
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How on earth did that happen?
 
txflyer said:
I feel bad because when I give another pilot a ride like today a Mooney pilot who thinks he wants a 180 I let him taxi and fly mine like a maniac but I did the take off and landing. He said he has about 60 hours tailwheel time in Citabrias and Cubs.

I wanted to let him try to land it but the couple of times I have tried it in the past and let other pilots try it got kinda hairy.

I'm not an instructor so I'm not ready and steady on the controls like they are accustomed to doing. I've flown right seat in mine that's no problem but maybe it's just because it's a 180 and kind of tricky. Anyway, should I loosen up or what's customary? Cross your fingers and hope the insurance is paid up? :lol:
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Don't feel bad...its your airplane, and you honestly have no idea of his ability to safely take off or land it.

I don't think that being an instructor or not should make a difference...you're probably not insured for giving flight instruction, and there IS additional risk involved.
 
It could also be an insurance issue. Make sure your insurance allows it. I recently got a quote that forbid anyone but the owner\insurer of the plane from doing take offs and landings.
 
I'll let someone takeoff and land basically anything no matter their experience. Not really a big deal for me, since it's something I do, well, almost every day in all sorts of types. 0 hour student in a Bonanza? No problem...assuming whoever owns it is authorizing the activity.

That said, there are some exceptions to this, one of which is if I'm borrowing someone's airplane or if I'm just not that comfortable with the situation (unfamiliar airplane, challenging conditions, etc).

If an airplane is turbocharged I'm usually pretty hesitant to let someone touch the engine controls unless I know for sure they know what the hell they're doing. If I'm teaching someone that is new to turbocharged aircraft we spend a great deal of time talking about it which also includes me demonstrating some things before their hand touches engine controls...and even then I watch what they're doing like a hawk. It doesn't take much to hurt some engines badly.

About the only thing I really don't like doing is teaching people that are very new or have no hours at all in turbocharged aircraft. They're just not made for people who will be very ham fisted for awhile no matter how much you try to watch what they're doing.

The times I have taught someone how to fly one - I really like to spend some time with them first in a normally aspirated complex airplane and get some habits engrained in them there. Automatic wastegates certainly help a lot to reduce risk but the risk is still plenty present.
 
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Tailwheel I can understand. My Tampico? I let just about anyone try and land it. It is WAY over built and was designed/marketed as a primary trainer. It does that job well. I try to keep my mouth shut & my hands off of the controls unless they start down the "dangerous" path. So far it has only resulted in one "harder than I would have liked" landing, but the landing was no worse than the worst of my landings. (Got a little too slow a little bit too high. It felt a bit like a carrier landing. The only thing hurt was his pride.)
 
Yes, but I'm a CFI, so it's kind of second nature. How much I "help" varies person to person (though as a habit, I have my feet near the pedals and hands near the controls on every landing).
 
Shepherd said:
It could also be an insurance issue. Make sure your insurance allows it. I recently got a quote that forbid anyone but the owner\insurer of the plane from doing take offs and landings.
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I know on mine in order to be an additional insured like a partner it says the applicant must have a certain amount of TW hours and so many hours in type.

I can't remember the numbers without pulling the policy but I know it's in there.

I don't remember any language forbidding everyone except me from take off or landing. :redface:
 
txflyer said:
I feel bad because when I give another pilot a ride like today a Mooney pilot who thinks he wants a 180 I let him taxi and fly mine like a maniac but I did the take off and landing. He said he has about 60 hours tailwheel time in Citabrias and Cubs.

I wanted to let him try to land it but the couple of times I have tried it in the past and let other pilots try it got kinda hairy.

I'm not an instructor so I'm not ready and steady on the controls like they are accustomed to doing. I've flown right seat in mine that's no problem but maybe it's just because it's a 180 and kind of tricky. Anyway, should I loosen up or what's customary? Cross your fingers and hope the insurance is paid up? :lol:
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If you're not comfortable correcting any potential errors they might make, then no, you're not being unreasonable. It's your plane and your insurance at stake.
 
Nope! I'll let then taxi or take the controls in the air. Otherwise I'm not a CFI and, unless the person in the right seat is a CFI with Viking time, I just wouldn't be comfortable.
 
Teaching tailwheel is a faith building experience at times, but yeah, you have to let the student start somewhere!
 
If one decides to become an instructor, or a Capt in a two man crew operation, you had better learn to trust the guy next to you. That doesn't mean not ready to recover, it just means do not prematurely jump in. If you don't have the balls for it, stay in a single pilot operation.
 
Kritchlow said:
If one decides to become an instructor, or a Capt in a two man crew operation, you had better learn to trust the guy next to you. That doesn't mean not ready to recover, it just means do not prematurely jump in. If you don't have the balls for it, stay in a single pilot operation.
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Been in plenty of multiple crew airplanes. Letting someone land someone else's airplane is fine by me. Letting someone else land my plane is slightly trickier.

Especially if I don't know if they meet the open pilot clauses in my insurance, they can't land my plane.

A number of CFIs have landed my plane and I knew they did easily meet those minimums. (One of them here in this forum also carries additional insurance for his teaching activities... He's talked about why he carries it. His call.)

Bottom line is, it's not a matter of trust for me. I trust even a newbie could make a decent landing in a 182 if someone is there to coach them through the power settings and speeds and keeps them from slamming the nose wheel down first. Easy.

It's not a hard airplane to fly as long as you trim it. Even then it's not hard.

It's more about making sure they're comfortable with the insurance company and I both suing them (technically the LLC would sue) if they screw it up.

If they're ok with that, I'm fine with it.

In other words: I'm going to figure out how to make the LLC (and thus my co-owners of the LLC) whole, if you bend the airplane. Or at best, they are going to try to and I'll have to stay out of it.

Nothing personal, it's only 33.33% mine. Even if I vote not to sue, I can be outvoted. By-laws are by-laws.

If you met the insurance requirement and insurance pays up, we're generally good natured people and we're probably all cool. There's other airplanes out there. A check and a shopping spree isn't going to kill us.

But if the insurance finds something and goes after you, I'm probably on their side -- unless I know there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.

So sure. Land my airplane. If you meet the insurance reqs and don't break it we are good. Break it, and the LLC may have no choice but to come after you collectively. I may be able to remain neutral at best.

And I'm not going to lie and say I did it.

It's just numbers. Not personal. The LLC owns the plane. I own a portion of the LLC. The LLC is its own entity that may decide to make your life a living hell. I only have one vote in that.
 
I don't remember the last time an instructor flat out took the controls back from me even when I was getting my TW endorsement. And we were swerving and bouncing all over hell and back like a drunken monkey a few times. So that's why I say instructor's have balls of steel.

I don't have that kind of nerves. The last time I let another pilot try it and he bounced my plane I said "let me have it" as I was grabbing the yoke and correcting already and he handed it over willingly. It's either correct the deviation like right now on mine or pay the price later so I didn't wait.

Skywagons shouldn't be that hard to land to any seasoned tailwheel pilot, they just have one or two quirks to the type like any other airplane. I keep going back to that critical phase on the landing to not let any oscillation set in or scrub it and go around, if you can master it, you should be able to land any tail dragger. Tail dragger pilots have less shame than other pilots I think because we'll throttle up and go around in a New York second and not think twice about it. Chalk it up to "oh well, that one isn't going to happen" and try again. We don't care if you're utubing it on the side. A botched landing is a botched one and I think TW pilots are a little better at recognizing them quickly when they see one and reacting to it. :stirpot:

<steps off soapbox>
 
Ive let a few people fly my airplane, a few i said let me give you a prop, and sent them on their way. a couple I rode around the pattern with them a couple times. I wont offer if Im not comfortable.
 
I'll let other pilots land the Baron. I let the maintenance shop guys fly it alone, but they have their own insurance and meet my own open pilot clause.

I'm the only one who flies the Waco.
 
denverpilot said:
It's more about making sure they're comfortable with the insurance company and I both suing them (technically the LLC would sue) if they screw it up.
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Unless you both agree that the other pilot is ACTING as PIC and not just manipulating, is the LLC and/or insurance company more likely to prevail against the other pilot or against you?
 
txflyer said:
I think because we'll throttle up and go around in a New York second and not think twice about it.
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First time I flew a particular legacy LSA taildragger (name withheld to protect the guilty) I misjudged the height off the ground during the flare (it appears to sit a lot higher than my little ride) bumped and pushed in the noise lever to go around. The instructor pulled it back out and said to never add power because it could cause loss of directional control.

I just nodded and said thanks for the information (and salvaged the landing).

:dunno:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Unless you both agree that the other pilot is ACTING as PIC and not just manipulating, is the LLC and/or insurance company more likely to prevail against the other pilot or against you?
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Depends. Did we write it down and leave it somewhere other than in our heads which are now part of the burnt wreckage? Did we take the GoPro along? Was there a CVR? Did I text someone saying you were flying the next leg to Timbuktu for lunch and that you'd make an excellent autopilot since ours sucks?

The insurance company is going to think whatever is most convenient for them sans evidence.

The whole concept of "pick a PIC amongst yourselves" is busted in a fatal crash anyway.

Even if I wasn't flying and you busted it, and it kills me and you survive, you'll probably just blame it on the dead guy anyway. Who's not going to believe you in my airplane?

Non-fatal, one wonders how many would lie about it and maintain the lie in the face of staggering legal expenses. Is Dr. House's (the TV character not our person who uses his photo as an avatar here...) prediction about people correct?

Probably best not to fly with folk who'll lie about you when you're dead, but you won't care.

Only the LLC and insurance company care at that point, for purposes of paying for the loss.

How you going to leave evidence of who "agreed" to be PIC on the ground somewhere? Do you?
 
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