Do or die?

John Baker

John Baker

Final Approach
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John Baker
You lose your one engine over a populated area. Your only possible field is a public park, surrounded by homes on three sides and a small mountain on the fourth. You set up your best glide speed and go through the other six Ss.

As you get closer, you can now see some people with children on the section grass you have selected for your runway. You are past the point of other options besides the houses or the rock covered side of the mountain.

There are not all that many people on the grass, but enough to make it very likely that a fatality will occur. Your only other choice is the side of the mountain, which pretty much guarantees a fatality.... you.

What would you do? No really, you might make the grass landing without injuring anyone. What would you really do?

This is a question I have thought about more than once, just curious as to what y'all might think about it.

This is a hypothetical situation. Your airplane is a single engine plane. The houses are not an option. tree lined streets, steep roofs, multitude of wires, and an FAA cop is ticketing all aircraft that try to land in his neighborhood. There are no trees on the mountain, just lots of very large boulders. There are only two options, that is it. Oh yea, your air horn is broken, and one of the people on the field is blond.

John
 
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I need a picture before I can really make the call. There's gotta be a street or something.
 
They'd have to be spread out pretty dense before there was no where at all to go. I'll take my chances on the park.
 
You mean like if there was this beautiful innocent deer on the runway when you were trying to land?

deer hunt2.jpg

John Baker said:
You lose your one engine over a populated area. Your only possible field is a public park, surrounded by homes on three sides and a small mountain on the fourth. You set up your best glide speed and go through the other six Ss.

As you get closer, you can now see some people with children on the section grass you have selected for your runway. You are past the point of other options besides the houses or the rock covered side of the mountain.


There are not all that many people on the grass, but enough to make it very likely that a fatality will occur. Your only other choice is the side of the mountain, which pretty much guarantees a fatality.... you.

What would you do? No really, you might make the grass landing without injuring anyone. What would you really do?

This is a question I have thought about more than once, just curious as to what y'all might think about it.

John
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Park. It doesn't take much to get out of the way of my plane. Let them get out of the way.

But that said, I'm betting there has to be another option, road, etc.
 
Park - people will probably get out of the way, unless there's a rock concert going on. If the mountain is covered in trees, heading there, as I can lose a bunch of energy in the trees.
 
I've been in several extremely high risk life and death situations..as in do the right thing or there is no other option. I'm still here and almost totally unhurt.
A couple billion years of survival instincts are well rooted in me. I am not suicidal in the least. That's just the way it is.
I hope no one gets hurt however to be blunt: Be aware of your surroundings and GET OUT OF THE WAY or get what you deserve. I'm instinctively taking the least hazardous situation for myself that I can find. I'll try to not smash into anyone but I'm planning on walking away from the plane afterward regardless of whether someone stands there or runs.

FWIW, I find cities horrifically boring and totally uninteresting. I avoid them whenever possible while on the ground or in the air. The chances of me ending up in John's scenario is extremely small bordering on non existent.
 
If I really truly honestly believe within myself that I am exceedingly likely to kill someone else, then I sir choose death over killing someone. But I have to really really believe they won't get outta the way in time and that kill or be killed are my only 2 options.

However, given the pop density in most parks I've seen, I'll probably find a hole and the 400' to stop or flip in soft dirt/grass.
 
§ 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
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Why are you even in this situation to begin with?
 
Pi1otguy said:
If I really truly honestly believe within myself that I am exceedingly likely to kill someone else, then I sir choose death over killing someone. But I have to really really believe they won't get outta the way in time and that kill or be killed are my only 2 options.

However, given the pop density in most parks I've seen, I'll probably find a hole and the 400' to stop or flip in soft dirt/grass.
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+1. In this situation, it doesn't sound like the "really really likely", so I'll choose the park.
 
John Baker said:
This is a hypothetical situation. Your airplane is a single engine plane. The houses are not an option. tree lined streets, steep roofs, multitude of wires, and an FAA cop is ticketing all aircraft that try to land in his neighborhood. There are no trees on the mountain, just lots of very large boulders. There are only two options, that is it. Oh yea, your air horn is broken, and one of the people on the field is blond.

John
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What does my pee smell like?

Do I have both wings?

What other traffic is in the area and have they 'advised'?
 
steingar said:
Rock. No way will I have the blood of innocents on my soul. Rather be dead.
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Too bad you didn't see that mountain climbing couple or lived long enough to hear how the rock slide your plane started crushed the Bus full of school kids.

Park.
 
RMCN172RG said:
Too bad you didn't see that mountain climbing couple or lived long enough to hear how the rock slide your plane started crushed the Bus full of school kids.

Park.
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In these scenarios, buses really should be filled with nuns and orphans, not merely school kids... :D



I think I'd go for the park as well. But I'd likely plan to put it down hard if the people didn't scatter. Or try to touch down in the clear but head into the weed, trees, or some other obstacle. That would suck, but it would beat diving into rocks. Or mowing down a bunch of people to save your own skin.

But they probably would scatter - I've never heard of a plane making an off-airport (in trouble but in control) landing and striking someone on the ground who had no idea it was coming (not that it isn't possible, except maybe if they're on a treadmill), and I've heard of and seen footage of several scenarios where people noticed the plane and got out of the way with time to spare.

I suppose if the prop had stopped and their backs were turned to you, you could holler out the window (if you have one), or stir the pot briefly to bang the control surfaces against the stops.

Scenarios like this make me think planes should have horns... maybe an air horn would be a smart emergency-kit item. Sure would be handy on the ramp or taxiways sometimes... :D
 
If I knew for sure that I would kill somebody if I were to land in the park. I'd look for the biggest tree canopy and roll the dice.
 
We have replaced the rockside cliff in this scenario with Foldger's Crystals. Let's see if anyone changes their mind...
 
I remember that commercial. does that mean I'm old?

Mountain covered in rocks or mountain grown coffee, either way, it is still the side of a mountain.

It looks like most would risk the lives of others rather than cash in their own. I don't know what I would do until I actually get to that moment of decision, I don't think anyone really knows for sure.

In our lifetimes, we have all been heroes and we have all been cowards. I grew up in an era when the good guys all wore white hats and the bad guys wore black hats.

I have always thought of myself as the white hat guy, and I hope when that final moment comes, that I am able to live up to that image.

I think Tim has said it best, it is not how you die, it is how well you die.

John
 
John Baker said:
This is a hypothetical situation. Your airplane is a single engine plane. The houses are not an option. tree lined streets, steep roofs, multitude of wires, and an FAA cop is ticketing all aircraft that try to land in his neighborhood. There are no trees on the mountain, just lots of very large boulders. There are only two options, that is it.
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Gee, an "FAA cop" is stationed at the park to hand out tickets on the off chance one crash lands in his neighborhood? :rolleyes: Does that mean the "EPA sheriff" is waiting to declare a superfund site on the hill that I contaminate with 100LL?:D

Oh yea, your air horn is broken, and one of the people on the field is blond.
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Are blonds really that , ... um ... slow? Do they act like dear to incoming planes? ;)

BTW, if I can tell she is blond them I'm committed to the field and almost below the trees/telephone poles. The new question is who do u take out? The deer in the headlights blond, kids playing hide 'n seek by the trees, the family driving down the road u just crushed with a power pole, or the stay at home mom & JR Terrier when their home burst into flames? choices choices, huh? :goofy::goofy::cornut::D:D:cool2:
 
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Pi1otguy said:
<snip>
Are blonds really that , ... um ... slow? Do they act like dear to incoming planes? ;)

BTW, if I can tell she is blond them I'm committed to the field and almost below the trees/telephone poles. The new question is who do u take out? The deer in the headlights blond, kids playing hide 'n seek by the trees, the family driving down the road u just crushed with a power pole, or the stay at home mom & JR Terrier when their home burst into flames? choices choices, huh? :goofy::goofy::cornut::D:D:cool2:
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Get it straight. :) He is blond. She is blonde. And deer are dear.
 
I'd roll it up on knife edge and catch a wing tip in the park. Cartwheeling along reduces my path of carnage to just a few feet wide. Just before the plane stops on the baseball diamond, I leap out and slide into home where a fat guy in a mask yells "SAFE!"

This question actually has a right answer (the mountainside) but it reminds me of those philosophical questions I used to get in college, like: There's a baby carriage careening down the street and you see a man about to jump out to stop it. But you notice a truck (that he doesn't) that will certainly kill the man if he leaps from the curb to save the stroller. You have have a chance to stop him - do you?

Once you've thought about your answer to that one, how about - if you knew you could push him into the path of the truck killing him but stopping it before it hit the baby, would you?

What's the difference in these two scenarios if any?
 
BTW, the reason I say this question has a right answer (and I sincerely hope the rest of you were joking otherwise) is that you chose to take on the risk of flying an airplane that day and all it entailed. You hoped you wouldn't die in it today but you knew the risk was always there when you rotated off. Those people in the park - not so much. I can't imagine anyone when faced with this in the heat of the moment opting to put some oblivious innocent folk at risk to reduce yours.

There have been people out flying for decades in airplanes, ready to die in them just to protect your right to a democratic and free lifestyle. Would you seriously put others at risk to lower yours?
 
PittsDriver said:
BTW, the reason I say this question has a right answer (and I sincerely hope the rest of you were joking otherwise) is that you chose to take on the risk of flying an airplane that day and all it entailed. You hoped you wouldn't die in it today but you knew the risk was always there when you rotated off. Those people in the park - not so much. I can't imagine anyone when faced with this in the heat of the moment opting to put some oblivious innocent folk at risk to reduce yours.

There have been people out flying for decades in airplanes, ready to die in them just to protect your right to a democratic and free lifestyle. Would you seriously put others at risk to lower yours?
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I believe this is the answer I was actually looking for, it justifies the correct decision. People, I think, need tools to make it through their lives, and help with life's complexities.

Clearly understanding what is expected of you can help with those split second decisions. Your reactions should pretty much be automatic if you have been given the training and you have the right information.

John
 
This is impossible. I'd need to be in the airplane and see my options. I can tell you I'd do a lot of creative things before I'd plow directly into a wall that'll kill me.

These activities really carry little value IMO.
 
jesse said:
This is impossible. I'd need to be in the airplane and see my options. I can tell you I'd do a lot of creative things before I'd plow directly into a wall that'll kill me.

These activities really carry little value IMO.
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I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. We all would have to know that all our options were completely exhausted before ever being able to make such a horrendous decision.

I do believe, just knowing what others would do, or expect you to do, is an important link in that decision chain. I think these kind of discussions are valuable, especially to low time aviators such as myself.

John
 
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