Do birds fly in IMC?

RotaryWingBob

RotaryWingBob

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This question was raised on the Vertical Reference web site, and I thought it was worth x-posting here.

Has anyone ever seen a bird going shooting by or heard of a bird strike in IMC?

And if they do, how do they stay right side up and avoid obstacles?

Inquiring minds want to know :yes:
 
which begs a followup question:

"Do birds fly formation in IMC and can they rejoin if they go lost wingman?"
 
gkainz said:
which begs a followup question:

"Do birds fly formation in IMC and can they rejoin if they go lost wingman?"
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And what about geese since their formation constantly changes?
 
RotaryWingBob said:
This question was raised on the Vertical Reference web site, and I thought it was worth x-posting here.

Has anyone ever seen a bird going shooting by or heard of a bird strike in IMC?

And if they do, how do they stay right side up and avoid obstacles?

Inquiring minds want to know :yes:
Click to expand...

Yes, they will fly in IMC until they hit something.
 
ive heard stories of geese falling to their deaths from icing up, no kidding. So i would say yes they do fly IMC.

And if they lose formation, they probably just honk like hell until they get a response :)
 
You mean geese don't have hot wings? You can still see a little bit in IMC, so as close together as they fly, I bet they can still see each other. I wonder if the birds think that they will hit something if they are flying towards a cloud?
 
bkreager said:
You mean geese don't have hot wings? You can still see a little bit in IMC, so as close together as they fly, I bet they can still see each other. I wonder if the birds think that they will hit something if they are flying towards a cloud?
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Shoot I still think I am going to hit something as I enter a cloud. I get ready for the bump each time I go in one.
 
bkreager said:
You mean geese don't have hot wings? You can still see a little bit in IMC, so as close together as they fly, I bet they can still see each other. I wonder if the birds think that they will hit something if they are flying towards a cloud?
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I've seen waterfowl avoid clouds, and AFaIK they don't have any internal gyros, to I assume they'd be subject to the same problems that caused early pilots to conclude that flight in clouds is impossible.
 
birds have a NATURAL ability to fly...i would assume that since they have been doing so for millions of years before us, that they have evolved in some sort of way that they can find thier direction and weather and stuff doesnt affect them much...

OTOH if you notice birds have a good ability to know before hand when bad weather is coming...if you have ever noticed just before its gonna rain you always see birds taking cover...
thier home is the sky...ill bet that they have ways to communicate and navigate that we can't even imagine...

Ant
 
SupraPilot said:
birds have a NATURAL ability to fly...i would assume that since they have been doing so for millions of years before us, that they have evolved in some sort of way that they can find thier direction and weather and stuff doesnt affect them much...

OTOH if you notice birds have a good ability to know before hand when bad weather is coming...if you have ever noticed just before its gonna rain you always see birds taking cover...
thier home is the sky...ill bet that they have ways to communicate and navigate that we can't even imagine...
Click to expand...

If weather doesn't affect them much, why do they take cover? The old joke about bringing a duck in the cockpit to help flying in weather aside, I really doubt that any bird can maintain level flight for very long inside a cloud.
 
Never seen a bird in a cloud while IMC. But I have seen and heard geese in some pretty thick fog and low clouds. I have definitely seen geese flying in weather that would require an ILS or a missed approach, and they were obviously in and out of clouds. So they do fly in the clouds. How? Beats me, some sort of evolved mechanism to help orient them?

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
How? Beats me, some sort of evolved mechanism to help orient them?

Jim G
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thats what i think..they are naturally able to fly so thier bodies can adapt so they know which way is up down left or right...unlike ours we are made to be on the ground so our senses get all whacked out when we are in a different environment...kinda like fish...we dont stand a chance of survival under water if we needed to find our way without guidance..fish just naturally know..

Ant
 
grattonja said:
Never seen a bird in a cloud while IMC. But I have seen and heard geese in some pretty thick fog and low clouds. I have definitely seen geese flying in weather that would require an ILS or a missed approach, and they were obviously in and out of clouds. So they do fly in the clouds. How? Beats me, some sort of evolved mechanism to help orient them?

Jim G
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There's evidence of bird's ability to sense the earth's magnetic field, which lends vertical as well as horizontal directional information.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
Has anyone ever seen a bird going shooting by or heard of a bird strike in IMC?
Click to expand...
FWIW I've heard of a bird strike in IMC, in the snow no less. Don't know what kind of bird but it was big enough to break the landing light mounted on the gear strut. Maybe it thought it saw the sun and was headed toward it. :dunno:
 
SupraPilot said:
...ill bet that they have ways to communicate and navigate that we can't even imagine...

Ant
Click to expand...

A british study recently put GPS devices on pigeons and found that they migrate using the simplest method available. Basically they follow roads, towns. Easy landmarks. Pilotage! It even found some birds going around a roundabout several times before deciding what road to follow out of it.

Of course they were expecting them to naturally fly point to point by some advanced magnetic seeking device in their brains or something too.

Ill see if i can dig up the link.
 
tonycondon said:
A british study recently put GPS devices on pigeons and found that they migrate using the simplest method available. Basically they follow roads, towns. Easy landmarks. Pilotage! It even found some birds going around a roundabout several times before deciding what road to follow out of it.

Of course they were expecting them to naturally fly point to point by some advanced magnetic seeking device in their brains or something too.

Ill see if i can dig up the link.
Click to expand...
That's because the way they installed the GPS, the pigeon couldn't reach the NRST button!
 
gkainz said:
That's because the way they installed the GPS, the pigeon couldn't reach the NRST button!
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Some homing pidgeon missions, the birds are released from black boxes, hundreds of miles from any territory of which they have any previous visual information, and then plot a successful course home.
 
lancefisher said:
If weather doesn't affect them much, why do they take cover? The old joke about bringing a duck in the cockpit to help flying in weather aside, I really doubt that any bird can maintain level flight for very long inside a cloud.
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Actually, the reason you take the duck is because they DON"T fly in the clouds...they tuck and dive to safety, and when you see them spread their wings, you start the pullup.

The CATis what you use for flying in the clouds ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
tonycondon said:
A british study recently put GPS devices on pigeons and found that they migrate using the simplest method available. Basically they follow roads, towns. Easy landmarks. Pilotage! It even found some birds going around a roundabout several times before deciding what road to follow out of it.

Of course they were expecting them to naturally fly point to point by some advanced magnetic seeking device in their brains or something too.

Ill see if i can dig up the link.
Click to expand...

idk about that...even if they did study this i find that hard to beleive..
how is a bird gonna know where a road leads themor what town they are over...what about back when there wasnt any civilization?? or in areas today that there is nothing but a bunch of nothing there...
who knows..
OTOH im sure birds have great situational awareness..im sure they can at least tell if they are decending or turning even if they cant see...im sure that would prob have to be built in since its natural for them...
besides im sure they fly in bad weather..a bird's life doesnt go on if he cant fly..so im sure they dont say "we can't go fly and find food today becasue the weather is bad"
About bird strikes ..im sure they prob cant see just like we cant in bad weather..and when they hit planes it just happeneds soo fast they dont even know it was comin..

Ant
 
SupraPilot said:
so im sure they dont say "we can't go fly and find food today becasue the weather is bad"
About bird strikes ..im sure they prob cant see just like we cant in bad weather..and when they hit planes it just happeneds soo fast they dont even know it was comin..

Ant
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I'm sure they have to say we can't fly because the weather is bad. Something tells me a bird does not do well in extreme rain, gusting winds, hail, or inside a tornato.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
There's evidence of bird's ability to sense the earth's magnetic field, which lends vertical as well as horizontal directional information.
Click to expand...

I've read that, but I also know that in a 40 degree bank you absolutely cannot use a compass for anything useful above 45 degrees latitude. Do you think the birds know this too? Also if they use magnetic fields for attitude control, do they crash when they fly in IMC near areas of heavy iron deposits that mess up the local magnetic field?
 
lancefisher said:
I've read that, but I also know that in a 40 degree bank you absolutely cannot use a compass for anything useful above 45 degrees latitude. Do you think the birds know this too? Also if they use magnetic fields for attitude control, do they crash when they fly in IMC near areas of heavy iron deposits that mess up the local magnetic field?
Click to expand...

I'll bet they get confused. Maybe they avoid such areas?
 
lancefisher said:
I've read that, but I also know that in a 40 degree bank you absolutely cannot use a compass for anything useful above 45 degrees latitude. Do you think the birds know this too? Also if they use magnetic fields for attitude control, do they crash when they fly in IMC near areas of heavy iron deposits that mess up the local magnetic field?
Click to expand...

I'm thinking that's what they may use for VFR navigation to get to/from/over areas they're totally unfamiliar with, then later on they may add pilotage landmarks. Somehow those homing pidgeons do get back, within limitations -maybe it's by smell!

As far as comparing their magnetic senses to a mechanical whiskey compass with all it's known short comings, I think they're sensing on some sort of a neurological level which could very well be unaffected by the maladies of our mechanical equipment.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
I'm thinking that's what they may use for VFR navigation to get to/from/over areas they're totally unfamiliar with, then later on they may add pilotage landmarks.
Click to expand...

That makes sense....

As far as comparing their magnetic senses to a mechanical whiskey compass with all it's known short comings, I think they're sensing on some sort of a neurological level which could very well be unaffected by the maladies of our mechanical equipment.
Click to expand...

...but that doesn't. Birds have to bank to turn just like airplanes and when banked their "magnetic sensors" will be just as confused as our whiskey compasses.
 
lancefisher said:
That makes sense....



...but that doesn't. Birds have to bank to turn just like airplanes and when banked their "magnetic sensors" will be just as confused as our whiskey compasses.
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Not neccessarily by any means, simply because neurological magnetic sensing would not likely be subject to the physical limitations of a whiskey compass, for example the adverse friction components, and that's not even including the gravitational sensing that may be possible to combine with magnetic sensing all the way up to magnetic inclination. What aeronautical information would those two inputs remind you of?

After I have reviewed whether or not bats use their targeting/range finding radar abilities (echolocation, really) or a variation thereof for total situational awareness while flying in the dark, I may have another comment regarding possible bird flight in darkness.
 
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lancefisher said:
That makes sense....
...but that doesn't. Birds have to bank to turn just like airplanes and when banked their "magnetic sensors" will be just as confused as our whiskey compasses.
Click to expand...
I can't find a good link to show you, but there's a "Boli compass" that I've seen in a few sailplanes...the magnet is on gimballs & is always aligned with the earth's magnetic field, so it doesn't have acceleration or turning errors...you can actually use it to fly in the clouds with no gyros.

(Not that I'm saying birds have a gimballed sensor, mind you ;))

Fly safe!

David
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Not neccessarily by any means, simply because neurological magnetic sensing would not likely be subject to the physical limitations of a whiskey compass, for example the adverse friction components, and that's not even including the gravitational sensing that may be possible to combine with magnetic sensing all the way up to magnetic inclination.
Click to expand...

But I don't think any of that matters. A flux gate or hall effect based magnetic heading display cannot provide useful navigational information when circling where the bank angle plus the lattitude gets close to 90, there simply isn't any information to sense from a directional perspective since the magnetic lines of force are parallel to the yaw axis.
 
lancefisher said:
But I don't think any of that matters. A flux gate or hall effect based magnetic heading display cannot provide useful navigational information when circling where the bank angle plus the lattitude gets close to 90, there simply isn't any information to sense from a directional perspective since the magnetic lines of force are parallel to the yaw axis.
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That's where the mechanically unencumbered DNA based concept of say, common, magneticly sensitive hemoglobin molecules embedded in a few microns thin, perhaps spherical, membranous and synapticly rich matrix, most likely located in the organism's cerebellum, would not be adversely affected. That would enable sensation of any orientation of the organism while in flight or otherwise, to the most dominant magnetic force involved.

For additional information to complete the bird's complete situational awareness in IMC (except for it's altitude AGL), I think it would be possible for gravitational pull information to be obtained and combined with the magnetic sensing information. Possibly even by the same organ described above or by a separate one and neurologically connected.
 
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Dave Krall CFII said:
That's where the mechanically unencumbered DNA based concept of say, common, magneticly sensitive hemoglobin molecules embedded in a few microns thin, perhaps spherical, membranous and synapticly rich matrix, most likely located in the organism's cerebellum, would not be adversely affected. That would enable sensation of any orientation of the organism while in flight or otherwise, to the most dominant magnetic force involved.
Click to expand...

OK let me concede (for the moment:D) that evolution has bestowed the most perfect means of sensing the exact direction of the magnetic lines of force passing through the bird's brain. The part I'm having touble with is that except for flight in the vicinty of the equator, if the bird banks far enough there is no useful information to sense. IOW if you had an electronic version of the bird's magnetic sensor(s) you couldn't keep an airplane right side up in a moderately steep bank without something else (like a gyro) to provide some indication of your attitude, nor could a supercomputer driven autopilot.

For additional information to complete the bird's complete situational awareness in IMC (except for it's altitude AGL), I think it would be possible for gravitational pull information to be obtained and combined with the magnetic sensing information. Possibly even by the same organ described above or by a separate one and neurologically connected.
Click to expand...

Similar problem with "gravity". It's not possible to distinguish between acceleration due to mutually attracting masses and that due to an external force (like lift) applied to one mass. Doesn't matter if your "gravity sensor" is organic or not, there isn't anything that can be sensed to distinguished.

Now one thing I can believe is that some birds may be able to revert to a stable falling body state much like a person hanging from a parachute if they "lose it" in IMC and then pull out before hitting the ground or even descend at a sufficiently low velocity that they survive the impact with the ground if they can't pull out.

If you can't buy this, we'll just have to agree to disagree till some facts come along.:)
 
lancefisher said:
OK let me concede (for the moment:D) that evolution has bestowed the most perfect means of sensing the exact direction of the magnetic lines of force passing through the bird's brain. The part I'm having touble with is that except for flight in the vicinty of the equator, if the bird banks far enough there is no useful information to sense. IOW if you had an electronic version of the bird's magnetic sensor(s) you couldn't keep an airplane right side up in a moderately steep bank without something else (like a gyro) to provide some indication of your attitude, nor could a supercomputer driven autopilot.



Similar problem with "gravity". It's not possible to distinguish between acceleration due to mutually attracting masses and that due to an external force (like lift) applied to one mass. Doesn't matter if your "gravity sensor" is organic or not, there isn't anything that can be sensed to distinguished.

Now one thing I can believe is that some birds may be able to revert to a stable falling body state much like a person hanging from a parachute if they "lose it" in IMC and then pull out before hitting the ground or even descend at a sufficiently low velocity that they survive the impact with the ground if they can't pull out.

If you can't buy this, we'll just have to agree to disagree till some facts come along.:)
Click to expand...

Don't discount the abilities of the various species' central nervous systems as they exist at this very moment. As a model, consider a ping pong ball having very fine, nearly atomic Fe particles as a cloud inside. Regardless of the bird's bank or other attitude, wouldn't the Fe cloud move towards the dominant magnetic attraction?

I agree with your view on the sensing of gravitational problems being indistinguishable from acceleration forces. That's why the bird may need to flap, then glide and sense, flap, then glide and sense.
 
Binging pigeons and magnetite yielded some interesting findings on organic direction finding.

Also for further consideration, a bird in flight, even IMC, is able to move its head through a huge range of motion, effectively gimbaling at will, without altering course. Sea turtles, often in a featureless open sea that approximates IMC, use magnetite for direction finding.
 
Wow saw this post and immdiatly thought HEY Bob! I miss him he was a good man!
 
I live near the ocean and when we have zero - zero due to the marine layer the seguls and pelicans are hanging on the beach....
 
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