Disney Perm Flight Restrictions going away?

[bflynn]

There is talk about the Permanent Flight Restrictions over Disney in California and Florida being removed.

is there still a need for them? What are the pros and cons?

 

[Salty]

What does it actually accomplish?

 

[AKiss20]

No pros. Straight up regulatory capture. Is there any other corporation that gets that treatment? Not that I’m aware.

Get rid of it and get rid of the Bush P-areas as well. Why should they get permanent P-areas anymore?

 

[WDD]

Not so much a corporation vs a mass of people. Like a daily game day stadium TFR. Are any of them useful? IDK Me? I've never had problems with avoiding them. But that's just where and how I fly.

 

[Salty]

Not so much a corporation vs a mass of people. Like a daily game day stadium TFR. Are any of them useful? IDK Me? I've never had problems with avoiding them. But that's just where and how I fly.

But what does the tfr accomplish? If I want to crash into or bomb the crowd the tfr isn’t going to impede me in any way.

 

[Clip4]

I am in favor of an amendment to prohibit banner towing and other marketing.

 

[WDD]

But what does the tfr accomplish? If I want to crash into or bomb the crowd the tfr isn’t going to impede me in any way.

Hence my comment "Are they useful? IDK". I guess they filter out all of the non bad people, so only the bad guys show up on radar. Can they intercepted and shot down in time? Does the Magic Kingdom have anti aircraft missiles?

 

[Jim K]

Hence my comment "Are they useful? IDK". I guess they filter out all of the non bad people, so only the bad guys show up on radar. Can they intercepted and shot down in time? Does the Magic Kingdom have anti aircraft missiles?

Is not about security. It's about preventing aerial advertising and looky-loos scaring/annoying the plebs.

 

[Salty]

Is not about security. It's about preventing aerial advertising and looky-loos scaring/annoying the plebs.

So that would seem to be a pro. Seems like a small price to pay to not make enemies of a large number of people.

 

[AKiss20]

Not so much a corporation vs a mass of people. Like a daily game day stadium TFR. Are any of them useful? IDK Me? I've never had problems with avoiding them. But that's just where and how I fly.

Disney world has on average 60,000 people in it and covers 39 square miles. That’s 1500 people/sq mile. Half of the land isn’t used yet apparently so double it to 3000 people / sq mile. That’s still just under a third of a place like Staten Island. We don’t see an enormous TFR over all of Staten Island do we? It’s about equal to the population density of cities like Charlotte or San Antonio. Last I checked I’m free to fly laps over places like that and much cities that are 10x denser (and have done so many times).

meanwhile stadiums like yankee stadium can have 50,000 people on 0.0375 sq miles or a density of 1,333,333 people / sq mile. Not saying that’s still a valid argument for the stadium TFRs but at least from a density perspective stadiums are outliers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_World#:~:text=The property covers nearly 25,000,which half has been used.

https://disneyparknerds.com/disney-world-attendance-by-day/


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density#:~:text=The population density is calculated,square mile of land area.

https://www.governing.com/archive/population-density-land-area-cities-map.html?_amp=true

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee_Stadium

 

[Bob Noel]

Hence my comment "Are they useful? IDK". I guess they filter out all of the non bad people, so only the bad guys show up on radar. Can they intercepted and shot down in time? Does the Magic Kingdom have anti aircraft missiles?

tfrs fail to filter out careless pilots

 

[Racerx]

About the only decent reason I could see for the Disney/stadium tfr's is the possibility of fireworks...but if you're that low, there's other issues at hand.

 

[Jim K]

So that would seem to be a pro. Seems like a small price to pay to not make enemies of a large number of people.

I don't really disagree. Operationally they really don't cause problems. If you're taking to atc, they disappear. The thing that ****es me off about them is the lie that they're for security.

 

[GaryM]

So that would seem to be a pro. Seems like a small price to pay to not make enemies of a large number of people.

But no one else, not even other theme parks, enjoy such a restriction. Disney shouldn't benefit from a restriction agains aerial advertising if Six Flags and the others do not.

I'd treat them all like power plants and dams, with a general NOTAM discouraging, but not prohibiting, overflight. Use language like: TO THE EXTENT PRACTICABLE, PILOTS AND UAS OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE ABOVE OR IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND OTHER SENSITIVE LOCATIONS.

 

[DaleB]

Or maybe a 2000 AGL minimum for noise abatement.

 

[Sundancer]

Security? Nope, no rational for that, that's clearly nonsense. I could see a banner tow with a political or anti-Disney message causing 'em consternation and outrage. Or a pinhead taking pictures at too low an altitude.

 

[Skip Miller]

No pros. Straight up regulatory capture. Is there any other corporation that gets that treatment? Not that I’m aware.

Yes. The NFL Stadium TFR on game days.

Yes, there is a little more justification for the Stadium TFR, as it avoids a scrum of banner-tows. But still….

-Skip

 

[ateamer]

The only reason for Disney and stadium TFRs is to prevent banner tows. The owners can’t stomach any ad revenue that doesn’t go in their own pockets, so they got their buddies in Congress to outlaw it. Security is just the word they used to excuse it.

 

[JOhnH]

I kind of like it. When I'm in that area, I'm always above the ceiling anyway and the red circle on the map gives me a better sense of exactly where I am in relation to home.

 

[AKiss20]

Yes. The NFL Stadium TFR on game days.

Yes, there is a little more justification for the Stadium TFR, as it avoids a scrum of banner-tows. But still….

-Skip

See my previous post about density. You could make some nominal argument about safety at least for stadiums (again not saying it is a persuasive one). Disney can make no such argument.

Also stadium TFRs are exactly that, temporary for game day. Disney had a “permanent” TFR and the Bushes have a honest to god P-area.

 

[AKiss20]

Security? Nope, no rational for that, that's clearly nonsense. I could see a banner tow with a political or anti-Disney message causing 'em consternation and outrage. Or a pinhead taking pictures at too low an altitude.

Last I checked the airspace above Disney is not owned by Disney and is public property. Just as people are free to protest Disney outside its gates on public property, they should be allowed to protest in public airspace if that is their desired avenue.

 

[Half Fast]

Not so much a corporation vs a mass of people. Like a daily game day stadium TFR. Are any of them useful? IDK Me? I've never had problems with avoiding them. But that's just where and how I fly.

But we don’t have a TFR over Sea World or Universal. And the Disney TFR doesn’t even cover the whole property as it’s only a 3 mile radius. I’m pretty sure EPCOT isn’t under it.

The difficulty in removing it may lie with Congress. IIRC it was invoked by law, probably buried in a funding bill, that forced the FAA to create it. It might take another act of Congress to remove it.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I am in favor of an amendment to prohibit banner towing and other marketing.

Why? Is it really much of a disruption? I've seen in banner towing used pretty extensively in other parts of Florida/California/etc. along the beach fronts as well as around football stadiums on game days (obviously outside the TFR area). It doesn't really impact me at all (nor has it ever prompted me to engage in whatever product was being peddled).

Or maybe a 2000 AGL minimum for noise abatement.

With all of the noise/rides/tram/audio being piped around Disney at ground level, you'd never hear the aircraft flying overhead anyway.

 

[Pilawt]

Yes. The NFL Stadium TFR on game days.

Yes, there is a little more justification for the Stadium TFR, as it avoids a scrum of banner-tows. But still….

We live not far from State Farm Stadium in Glendale AZ, site of this year's Super Bowl. The POTUS-sized Super Bowl TFR didn't take effect until an hour or so before game time, but until then it was a madhouse of banner-tows. It must have been for the benefit of the tailgaters in the parking lots, because anybody already inside the domed stadium wouldn't see them.

I don't know about Orlando, but I don't think this kind of activity would be a good idea at Disneyland in Anaheim.

 

[DaleB]

With all of the noise/rides/tram/audio being piped around Disney at ground level, you'd never hear the aircraft flying overhead anyway.

Didn't know that... I think the last time I was at WDW was in 1978.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Didn't know that... I think the last time I was at WDW was in 1978.

Last time I was there was January of '05, so it certainly could be different now, but I doubt it. Lots of people, lots of music, lots of ambient noise.

 

[Half Fast]

I don't know about Orlando, but I don't think this kind of activity would be a good idea at Disneyland in Anaheim.

Why not? Based on what? We’re not having crashes over all the other parks in the country that don’t have TFRs.

And it’s not like planes don’t overfly the Disney area anyway. The TFR ends at 3000’ and the MCO bravo begins at 6000’, so there’s a 3000’ thick slice of sky overhead. I know a guy who does skywriting there, and tourist flights go through also.

This ain’t about security, folks. This is a powerful corporation getting a privilege from the government that its competitors don’t also receive.

 

[Pilawt]

Why not? Based on what? We’re not having crashes over all the other parks in the country that don’t have TFRs.

Other parks in the country don't have this kind of airspace issues. There's a lot of B, C and D airspace in the immediate area.



The Disneyland "T"FR complicates matters for local flights (especially to/from FUL) trying to remain clear of the B, C and D airspace, or simply transit from one of the local airports to another. But at the same time, traffic loitering over Disneyland would create its own set of problems.

 

[Sundancer]

Last I checked the airspace above Disney is not owned by Disney and is public property. Just as people are free to protest Disney outside its gates on public property, they should be allowed to protest in public airspace if that is their desired avenue.

I meant I could see it causing Disney heratburn, and working congress and/or FAA to stop it. But no, there's no legitimate reason for it to exist.

 

[Half Fast]

Other parks in the country don't have this kind of airspace issues. There's a lot of B, C and D airspace in the immediate area.

Sorry, ain't buyin' it.

The Orlando airspace is rather complex also. A very busy bravo with underlying charlies, deltas, and non-towered airports. If that's justification for a TFR over Disney World, it would justify TFRs for Orlando's other parks, Sea World and Universal, yet they don't have them. Heck, the Disney TFR doesn't even extend over EPCOT.

 

[wanttaja]

Hence my comment "Are they useful? IDK". I guess they filter out all of the non bad people, so only the bad guys show up on radar. Can they intercepted and shot down in time? Does the Magic Kingdom have anti aircraft missiles?

No, just Minnie guns.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[GaryM]

Other parks in the country don't have this kind of airspace issues. There's a lot of B, C and D airspace in the immediate area.

Six Flags Great Adventure in NJ has a little going on, airspace-wise. Squarely between the NYC and Philly Bravos, inside or partly inside the alert area for Joint Base Mcguire, and in close proximity to Lakehurst Naval Air Station. But no TFR.

 

[SoonerAviator]

No, just Minnie guns.
View attachment 117201
Ron Wanttaja

You win, lol. /thread

 

[rk911]

What does it actually accomplish?

Nothing, If the PFR is for the safety of those in the parks. Someone intent on harm will not be deterred by a circle on a map.

 

[Half Fast]

There is talk about the Permanent Flight Restrictions over Disney in California and Florida being removed.

Uh, who's talking about it? Anyone who can actually bring about a change?

 

[Half Fast]

Six Flags Great Adventure in NJ has a little going on, airspace-wise. Squarely between the NYC and Philly Bravos, inside or partly inside the alert area for Joint Base Mcguire, and in close proximity to Lakehurst Naval Air Station. But no TFR.

View attachment 117202

Not going to look right this minute, but I suspect the same is true for Six Flags over Georgia (Atlanta) and Six Flags over Texas (Dallas). Those are also rather busy airspaces.

 

[nauga]

Other parks in the country don't have this kind of airspace issues.

Other parks don't have this kind of political pull. Knott's Berry Farm is about 5 miles west of Disneyland, under the same airspace, and has no TFR.

Nauga,
and pizza rat

 

[SoonerAviator]

Not going to look right this minute, but I suspect the same is true for Six Flags over Georgia (Atlanta) and Six Flags over Texas (Dallas). Those are also rather busy airspaces.

GKY and GPM (Class D) sit under the DFW Class B, and all pretty much have traffic going over the top of the multiple football/baseball stadiums and Six Flags over TX. There would be no way to have an effective TFR there anyway as you couldn't get into any of those Class D airports, or DFW from the South.

 

[Half Fast]

Other parks don't have this kind of political pull. Knott's Berry Farm is about 5 miles west of Disneyland, under the same airspace, and has no TFR.

Nauga,
and pizza rat

EXACTLY!

 

[Learnin’ to fly…]

But what does the tfr accomplish? If I want to crash into or bomb the crowd the tfr isn’t going to impede me in any way.

I need no law or regulation to prevent me from using a plane to do harm to others or property. Similarly, I need to law or regulation to prevent me from using a firearm to do harm to others or property. I would venture to say that is true of all in this thread.

Equally, no law or regulation is going to prevent a criminal from doing what they intend to do. That is the nature of a criminal.

This rationale makes it easy to say - “why have any laws at all”.

Because, we believe that, on the whole, they either prevent avoidable (non-criminal) accidents OR provide crimes/violations on which society can charge someone caught before the “final” act (since proving intent to commit a large crime is often harder than proving the commission of many smaller predicate crimes) or in addition to the final act to increase punishment.

Disney - while not my cup of tea - is a significant point of interest.

IMO, what this helps with is the newly minted (or not so new) pilot who wants to show the fam/friends the sites. Low altitude. Circling. Airspeed bleeds off. SA is compromised. Spin/stall/smoking hole. Bad for everyone. VERY bad for GA when all the Karen’s chime in. Easy for me to say ‘small sacrifice’ as it is 800+ nm from where I fly….but…

And we do have regulations for other airspace’s that are similarly situated. Take National Parks for example, where there is effectively a standing TFR between 500 ft AGL and 2000 ft AGL.