Disappointed by TFR and ATC

Justin M

Justin M

Line Up and Wait
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Display name:
JM
I was planning to fly from KMMU (Morristown) to KWWD (Wildwood, NJ) today, vfr. Since the president is in Bedminster for the weekend, we have a TFR that impacts KMMU.

I've flown in and out of TFRs many times; so I thought: Ok, I'll file my VFR flight plan, pick up my transponder code and get out of dodge.

Not to be done today.

Ground said that all previous VFR departures waited 1 hour, then filed IFR and departed 20 minutes later. Not having the IR rating, I could either take my chances and wait or go home.

I waited on the taxiway for 45 minutes. Other planes that had called ground and taxied after us were able to depart because they were IR; but I sat there watching them depart. Since I had a passenger, decided we'd waited long enough: and returned to the tie downs, buttoned up and returned home via Uber.

I understand that one of the major exits from the area is covered by the TFR and is no-fly (SBJ), and there is congestion that leads to delays: but I'm disappointed that other planes leaving from my airfield were able to skip ahead of me because they were IFR.
 
One of the benefits of the IR is expedited/required handling. Filing IFR gets you access to and flight following in class B airspace and ease of access to the DC SFRA.

The TFRs are a real pain, for sure. It used to be GHWB in Kennebunkport impinging on Maine trips, but that was nothing in size or scope compared to the expanded Presidential TFRs today, and the DC SFRA.
 
Why should this get locked? What the op described is pretty crappy and may be more of a personnel issue than a tfr issue.
 
wrbix said:
ANY mention of POTUS triggers avalanches.
Standby.
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Just realize they’re oligarchs and all the same, and you do fine.

It’s the partisans and their cults that get all testy.

If it pleases the Crown, might I pass within thirty miles of the Great One?

Stupid security theater.
 
Justin M said:
I was planning to fly from KMMU (Morristown) to KWWD (Wildwood, NJ) today, vfr. Since the president is in Bedminster for the weekend, we have a TFR that impacts KMMU.

I've flown in and out of TFRs many times; so I thought: Ok, I'll file my VFR flight plan, pick up my transponder code and get out of dodge.

Not to be done today.

Ground said that all previous VFR departures waited 1 hour, then filed IFR and departed 20 minutes later. Not having the IR rating, I could either take my chances and wait or go home.

I waited on the taxiway for 45 minutes. Other planes that had called ground and taxied after us were able to depart because they were IR; but I sat there watching them depart. Since I had a passenger, decided we'd waited long enough: and returned to the tie downs, buttoned up and returned home via Uber.

I understand that one of the major exits from the area is covered by the TFR and is no-fly (SBJ), and there is congestion that leads to delays: but I'm disappointed that other planes leaving from my airfield were able to skip ahead of me because they were IFR.
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If the text of the TFR says that VFR traffic is allowed, but ATC is de facto not allowing it, or unreasonably discriminating against VFR traffic, maybe you should take it up with the QA people in the ATC facility responsible. Then escalate if needed.
 
New York Approach is the best and worst ATC in the world. Fly in their airspace on the regular and you'll know what I mean.
 
91.141 Flight restrictions in the proximity of the Presidential and other parties.
No person may operate an aircraft over or in the vicinity of any area to be visited or traveled by the President, the Vice President, or other public figures contrary to the restrictions established by the Administrator and published in a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM).


Be happy that anyone got out.

Except as specified below and/or unless authorized by ATC in consultation with the air traffic security coordinator via the domestic events network (DEN):
A. All aircraft operations within the 10 NMR area(s) listed above, known as the inner core(s), are prohibited except for: Approved law enforcement, military aircraft directly supporting the United States Secret Service (USSS) and the office of the President of the United States, approved air ambulance flights, and regularly scheduled commercial passenger and all-cargo carriers operating under one of the following TSA-Approved standard security programs/procedures: aircraft operator standard security program (AOSSP), full all-cargo aircraft operator standard security program (FACAOSSP), model security program (MSP), twelve five standard security program (TFSSP) all cargo, or all-cargo international security procedure (ACISP) and are arriving into and/or departing from 14 cfr part 139 airports. All emergency/life saving flight (medical/law enforcement/firefighting) operations must coordinate with ATC prior to their departure at 516-683-2966 to avoid potential delays.
B. For operations within the airspace between the 10 nmr and 30 nmr area(s) listed above, known as the outer ring(s): THE New York Class B airspace Hudson River SFRA Exclusion and East River SFRA Exclusion, 14 CFR 93.350(d), IS EXCLUDED FROM THE RESTRICTIONS IN THIS TFR. All OTHER aircraft operating within the outer ring(s) listed above are limited to aircraft arriving or departing local airfields, and workload permitting, ATC may authorize transit operations. Aircraft may not loiter. All aircraft must be on an active IFR or a filed VFR flight plan with a discrete code assigned by an air traffic control (ATC) facility. Aircraft must be squawking the discrete code prior to departure and at all times while in the TFR and must remain in two-way radio communications with ATC.
C. The following operations are not authorized within this TFR: flight training, practice instrument approaches, aerobatic flight, glider operations, parachute operations, ultralight, hang gliding, balloon operations, agriculture/crop dusting, animal population control flight operations, banner towing operations, sightseeing operations, maintenance test flights, model aircraft operations, model rocketry, unmanned aircraft systems (UAS), and utility and pipeline survey operations.
D. FAA recommends that all aircraft operators check notams frequently for possible changes to this TFR prior to operations within this region.
 
The key phrase is "workload permitting", which in practice means IFR traffic gets first priority. If you have ever attempted to traverse the Philly Class B, good luck getting admission and VFR flight following. You might, you might not. IFR, you get handled. (Although you may not get the most direct route.)
 
If IFR traffic is going to be given priority to such a degree that VFR traffic may be effectively prohibited, that should be stated in the NOTAM, IMO.
 
chemgeek said:
The key phrase is "workload permitting", which in practice means IFR traffic gets first priority. If you have ever attempted to traverse the Philly Class B, good luck getting admission and VFR flight following. You might, you might not. IFR, you get handled. (Although you may not get the most direct route.)
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Read it again. Workload permitting applies to transiting aircraft. That wasn't the OP.
 
We all feel your pain, having the ability to file IFR makes it more bare able,but it’s still a major pain.
 
bobmrg said:
Blame the Secret Service, not the controllers. ATC does not make the rules, it just follows them.

Bob
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I thought the rules set by the Secret Service were set out in the TFR. It sounds like what the OP wanted to do was allowed by the TFR.
 
Palmpilot said:
If IFR traffic is going to be given priority to such a degree that VFR traffic may be effectively prohibited, that should be stated in the NOTAM, IMO.
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So your complaint is the FAA allowed people who have completed a higher level of training more rights and didn’t explain that to you?

Well sorry, but that is just how it is in aviation. As an instrument pilot, I get to fly in Class A airspace and you are prohibited. If Class B, C, or D airspace gets busy, you will be told to remain clear and the IFR traffic will be cleared in. If you request a special VFR, ATC may issue it if it doesn’t get in the way of IFR traffic. If people are allowed to fly in a Presidential TFR, instrument flights go first.

VFR does get to fly thru active MOAs and IFR does not.
 
This is the first I've heard of such a practice during a Bedminster POTUS TFR. The complaint last year from KMMU was that IFR traffic couldn't get out because, as someone mentioned, the Solberg VOR is the primary waypoint used for outbound IFR routing, and that VOR is inside the 10 mile ring and unavailable. IFR traffic was backed up and VFR was getting out. What has changed? It's not the "workload permitting" issue because, as another person mentioned that only applies to transient traffic.
 
chemgeek said:
The key phrase is "workload permitting", which in practice means IFR traffic gets first priority. If you have ever attempted to traverse the Philly Class B, good luck getting admission and VFR flight following. You might, you might not. IFR, you get handled. (Although you may not get the most direct route.)
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I've never been denied B transit thru Philly.
 
Clip4 said:
So your complaint is the FAA allowed people who have completed a higher level of training more rights and didn’t explain that to you?
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No, that's not my complaint.

I have no objection to non-instrument-rated pilots being prohibited from flying in class A airspace, or in conditions that don't meet VFR minimums, because those restrictions are published for all to read. What I'm objecting to is that in the case of some TFR's, the FAA apparently falsely leads people to believe that VFR departures and arrivals will be allowed.

Well sorry, but that is just how it is in aviation. As an instrument pilot, I get to fly in Class A airspace and you are prohibited.
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The only reason I'm not allowed in class A airspace is that I'm on BasicMed, because I'm instrument rated and current, but that's beside the point. The prohibition of certain traffic in class A airspace is published (and taught in ground school), so I don't see any problem there.

If Class B, C, or D airspace gets busy, you will be told to remain clear and the IFR traffic will be cleared in.
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To the extent that that's true, it's either published, or it's not. If it's not, then it should be.

If you request a special VFR, ATC may issue it if it doesn’t get in the way of IFR traffic.
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And I believe that's published as well.

If people are allowed to fly in a Presidential TFR, instrument flights go first.
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I'm saying that TFR's should give pilots a reasonably truthful idea of what to expect. I don't see why that's in any way controversial.

VFR does get to fly thru active MOAs and IFR does not.
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Also published, and therefore not an issue as far as I'm concerned.
 
bkspero said:
This is the first I've heard of such a practice during a Bedminster POTUS TFR. The complaint last year from KMMU was that IFR traffic couldn't get out because, as someone mentioned, the Solberg VOR is the primary waypoint used for outbound IFR routing, and that VOR is inside the 10 mile ring and unavailable. IFR traffic was backed up and VFR was getting out....
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And that's as big a problem as the other way around, in my opinion.
 
EdFred said:
Call em on the radio every 45 seconds until they let you depart.
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No. Look, ATC isn't any more happy about the random changes to their workload, so don't dump on them.
 
denverpilot said:
Just realize they’re oligarchs and all the same, and you do fine.

It’s the partisans and their cults that get all testy.

If it pleases the Crown, might I pass within thirty miles of the Great One?

Stupid security theater.
Click to expand...
Not oligarchs but plutocrats. Please understand the difference.
 
azure said:
Pretty sure Ed just left off a smiley there. ;)
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I was actually more serious than not. These TFR have been in place for years. They have had more than adequate time to figure out procedures to handle this sort of thing. It IS ATC's problem if they can't figure out how to make it work. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. And as far as I'm concerned the entire government is on the same team so make it a pain in the ass for ATC because that's the only way they will ever push back against the Secret Service. As it is nobody does anything to make things better.

Also try calling your Congressman every hour on the hour until they do something.
 
EdFred said:
I was actually more serious than not. These TFR have been in place for years. They have had more than adequate time to figure out procedures to handle this sort of thing. It IS ATC's problem if they can't figure out how to make it work. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. And as far as I'm concerned the entire government is on the same team so make it a pain in the ass for ATC because that's the only way they will ever push back against the Secret Service. As it is nobody does anything to make things better.

Also try calling your Congressman every hour on the hour until they do something.
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While I share your frustration, Ed, bugging people is usually counterproductive. And checking in with ATC every 45 seconds from the hold short line is likely to get you "N12345 taxi to the runup area and hold there for further instructions". I'm not sure how much they share in the blame anyway.

I'm with @Palmpilot, if this is a policy matter then it belongs in the NOTAM. If it's really incompetent or overworked controllers, then call the tower and ask to talk to the sup.
 
MMU tower doesn't regulate the departures, its NY approach. Bugging the guy in MMU tower isn't going to help, because then he has to bug approach, and if you have a modicum of knowledge in dealing with NY Approach, that will NOT work. The Bedminster TFR is a big crap sandwich, and sadly a piston single trying to depart VFR is on the bottom of the heap. Doesn't make it right, but that is the reality. Next time vote for someone that doesn't like to play golf in NJ.
 
Palmpilot said:
No, that's not my complaint.

I have no objection to non-instrument-rated pilots being prohibited from flying in class A airspace, or in conditions that don't meet VFR minimums, because those restrictions are published for all to read. What I'm objecting to is that in the case of some TFR's, the FAA apparently falsely leads people to believe that VFR departures and arrivals will be allowed.



The only reason I'm not allowed in class A airspace is that I'm on BasicMed, because I'm instrument rated and current, but that's beside the point. The prohibition of certain traffic in class A airspace is published (and taught in ground school), so I don't see any problem there.



To the extent that that's true, it's either published, or it's not. If it's not, then it should be.



And I believe that's published as well.



I'm saying that TFR's should give pilots a reasonably truthful idea of what to expect. I don't see why that's in any way controversial.



Also published, and therefore not an issue as far as I'm concerned.
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Wasn’t the airport you were located in the inner core 10 nmr? The TFR provided for very limited IFR and no VFR in that area. Anyway, next time don’t be a dummy and fly into an area covered by a presidential TFR and expect anything. The secret service runs the show.
 
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Groundpounder said:
MMU tower doesn't regulate the departures, its NY approach. Bugging the guy in MMU tower isn't going to help, because then he has to bug approach, and if you have a modicum of knowledge in dealing with NY Approach, that will NOT work. The Bedminster TFR is a big crap sandwich, and sadly a piston single trying to depart VFR is on the bottom of the heap. Doesn't make it right, but that is the reality. Next time vote for someone that doesn't like to play golf in NJ.
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Uh oh
 
For those that say it won't work have you tried it? At some point the tower is going to say get this ****ing guy out of here and give me a squawk code for him. or if you want to bypass the tower call New York approach directly on the phone until they give you a squawk code. Keep the phone ringing non-stop until it happens.
 
EdFred said:
For those that say it won't work have you tried it? At some point the tower is going to say get this ****ing guy out of here and give me a squawk code for him. or if you want to bypass the tower call New York approach directly on the phone until they give you a squawk code. Keep the phone ringing non-stop until it happens.
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If I was in the tower and you kept doing that crap to me I would just tell Tracon I had a suspicious flight demanding release and let you talk to the secret service.
 
I flew from TTN to N40, then N40 to LNS, then LNS to TTN on saturday. Small issue with my code on the first leg getting mistakenly used by another aircraft, but other than that, no issues.
 
EdFred said:
.

Also try calling your Congressman every hour on the hour until they do something.
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Guaranteed to put your phone number on ignore. The do-not-call list is a joke, and not a funny one. Last year I informed my 3 congresscritters that each time I get a spam phone call, I'm sending the office an email and calling them to complain until Congress does something to seriously deal with the problem. Sen. Gardner's office won't even answer the phone when I call these days. We're coming up on election time, and charities and campaigns are exempt from the law (gee, I wonder why?). However, there is an FCC ruling titled:

FCC Robocall Enforcement DA 12-1476 as per The Telephone Consumer Protection Act of 1991 (TCPA Pub. L. No. 102-243, 105 Stat. 2394 (1991) (codified at 47 U.S.C. § 227)) and referenced by corresponding FCC rule 47 C.F.R. § 64.1200, titled Telephone Consumer Protection Act Robocall Rules, "Political Campaigns & Promotors are remineded of restrictions on autodialed & prerecorded calls"

Translation:
By law, once the callee (me) hangs up, the caller (you) are required to disconnect the call within 5 seconds (Line Seizure clause) This is not a political issue, this is a health and safety issue. Many people are on medical equipment that require continuous connectivity. By not disconnecting, you put people's health and welfare into jeopardy.

I file a complaint with the FCC concerning robocall violation of this rule and if I can track the organization down, I send an email citing the rule.

See what happens when I'm stuck at home with knee surgery? I can get into all sorts of mischief.
 
paflyer said:
I've never been denied B transit thru Philly.
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Count yourself lucky. I've been denied VFR entry enough times flying to or from the DC area that I now just file IFR. Depends on how busy they are when you transit. You are more likely to get handled if departing from or arriving at an airport in the class B.
 
Groundpounder said:
New York Approach is the best and worst ATC in the world. Fly in their airspace on the regular and you'll know what I mean.
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Yep. Bring your "A" game, waste not one second on the comms and they are golden. Waste their time or miss a call and point your DG on "E" and exit their airspace. If you file, be prepared for amended clearances. Lots of amended clearances.
 
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