Direct supervision by A&P

brien23

brien23

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Brien
For those of you that like to do all the work on your aircraft under the direct supervision by your buddy A&P does not mean by phone to him at home. How many have seen non A&P aircraft owners doing over and above what is legal to do on their aircraft under the direct supervision of a A&P only the A&P is not around and only checks after the fact.
 
Ive been hanging out here for a couple of years and there have been quite a few owners that have admitted.... we'll just leave it at that.
 
Glenn,

I had one owner who did impeccable work. Problem was he never told me what he had done. Told him I would no longer work on or inspect his plane. Didn't want to explain to the feds why something I had not supervised (or even been told about) caused the plane to fall out of the sky.
 
so....does supervision mean he has to be standing there.....watching over your shoulder?o_O

lots of people do work on airplanes without licenses....that are supervised and there is no one there watching them. Heck, they even build large airplanes....
 
mscard88 said:
Wouldn't you want to be doing that if it were your A&P certificate on the line?
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depends who it was.....a good friend of mine worked for Lycoming....I'd let him do next to anything on an engine, I even ask for his advice at times. :D

....others don't belong with a screw driver near a plane.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
so....does supervision mean he has to be standing there.....watching over your shoulder?o_O

lots of people do work on airplanes without licenses....that are supervised and there is no one there watching them. Heck, they even build large airplanes....
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https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/direct-supervision/ Direct supervision generally means to be physically present, or within an immediate distance, such as on the same floor, and available to respond to the needs ...
 
you mean available....by phone?

It still depends....if its a critical step, I'm there. If I don't trust this person's mechanical abilities I'm not going to supervise screw driver operations....let along other more involved activities.

bottom line....it's my ticket they're coming after.
 
I’ve seen it over and over again, though prefer not to indulge in such practices myself. Most of the guys I saw doing it were trusted by their mechanics because they were both good and meticulous.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
so....does supervision mean he has to be standing there.....watching over your shoulder?o_O

lots of people do work on airplanes without licenses....that are supervised and there is no one there watching them. Heck, they even build large airplanes....
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Large aircraft builders have a quality system in place. Everything is inspected and there is quality assurance oversight. There is even purchaser quality control buy off. I have had numerous opportunities to rep for my company at Boeing.
 
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Around my area the people most likely to overstep their bounds when it comes to maintenance are primarily the ones that shouldn’t be allowed to use tools. They often think they’re skilled as a mechanic but they’re really not that skilled. It never ceases to amaze me what some people consider to be acceptable work. Unfortunately, it is normal to see these guys doing these maintenance activities on any given weekend or evening. What’s even more annoying is that these guys are often proud of their work and they’ll try to pressure one of the appropriately certified guys into signing off on work that is not acceptable and that they had no knowledge of, until after the work was completed. Same thing happens with flight reviews, the more someone fights having a good flight review the more they likely need it.

I also know of an IA that does not follow the rule of performing the inspection with their own eyes. He relies on shop help to do the inspection then just signs it off. So it isn’t just aircraft owners without the appropriate mechanic certificate who are doing things they really shouldn’t be.

I’m all for teaching and having an aircraft owner be involved in the maintenance of their aircraft but it needs to be done correctly.
 
I prefer to have the IA on scene,and overseeing my work,after all it’s my butt in the plane.
 
Surprised that no one has yet to mention 43.3 (d).

(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.
 
Since the majority of my GA work was assisting pilot owners I had eventually inquired at the FSDO level due to the varying viewpoints on this. This info is old so I’m not sure how it would work today. And while I had similar interpretations from two individuals at separate FSDOs, they both cautioned that the next ASI I encountered may not come to the same conclusion.

Their collective view was that it boiled down to an ASI’s personal definition of “readily available.”

Per my notes they believed the first requirement: “… personally observes… to the extent necessary…” was self-explanatory. They both agreed this oversight observation was general in nature and did not mean to directly watch over the person working, but that a physical review of the work performed was required.

On the second requirement: “If the supervisor is readily available…” they had similar viewpoints but different reasoning.

One opined “readily available” meant a “reasonable time frame” and was based on some internal voodoo guidance which defined “readily” as such. If I recall correctly he followed on that if it was that important the proper term would have been “immediately available.” He also said this regulation had changed and had previously stated “under direct supervision.”

The other ASI used the example of an IA overseeing a major repair/alteration requiring a similar type of personal oversight of work performed. However, they both stated the observation and consultation had to be done in person. A phone call was only used to tell me they were done or had a question.

I didn’t have any problems while following their recommendations, except a few clients who pushed the limits and I quit assisting them.
 
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Norman said:
Ask three ASI's and you're likely to get six different answers dpending if they've had their morning coffee.
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Ain't that the truth. But I always thought their trigger point was lunch...
 
I love owner maintenance... I hope no one is supervising :)

I get to fix the sh-- they break..
 
Tom-D said:
I love owner maintenance... I hope no one is supervising :)
I get to fix the sh-- they break..
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I resemble that remark. I'm legally allowed to do anything and everything to Candy if I so choose, except the Condition Inspection.

I start stuff that I think is within my EXTREMELY LIMITED mechanical skills and eventually call my A&P to have him finish it.

Which reminds me, I need to call Joe about the...
 
So, who is the lawyer to tell us what this really means?

(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.
 
In my view "readily available" is in relation to the work being done. If the owner says "I am going to troubleshoot the sticky elevator trim and goes over the work with the A&P then starts on the plane he was "readily available".
When the owner finds something he is unsure of and had not reviewed it with the A&P, he stops work, goes to the A&P to further discuss it. The A&P instructs the owner or goes to look in person before the owner continues....... The A&P is "readily available"
 
For the record, at 9:00 minutes - you can see my guy (and his pickup) working on the other side of the alley. He even came over at one point to see what I was riveting. We had a bit of a chuckle over the difference between my rivets and the OEM rivets (you have to go frame by frame at 29 seconds to see those - sorry).
 
Tom-D said:
So, who is the lawyer to tell us what this really means?

(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.
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Gee Tom, thanks for posting that regulation excerpt.

As to what it means, what part do you not understand?
 
Its funny that I, a twenty-something year old E-5 in the Air Force was able to sign off an airworthy inspection on the engine of a multi-million dollar fighter, but I can't even change an air filter on my own plane without approval.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Its funny that I, a twenty-something year old E-5 in the Air Force was able to sign off an airworthy inspection on the engine of a multi-million dollar fighter, but I can't even change an air filter on my own plane without approval.
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What's funny about It? Shoulda got your A&P.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Gee Tom, thanks for posting that regulation excerpt.

As to what it means, what part do you not understand?
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I don't have to understand, As long as those who I supervise do I'm good.
Knowing who can do what, is the best method of supervision, I don't supervise every one, I'm pretty picky who I work for.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Its funny that I, a twenty-something year old E-5 in the Air Force was able to sign off an airworthy inspection on the engine of a multi-million dollar fighter, but I can't even change an air filter on my own plane without approval.
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It's difficult to make a rule that fits every one. So its made to fit the bottom feeders
 
Tom-D said:
It's difficult to make a rule that fits every one. So its made to fit the bottom feeders
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Tom,

There are no rules stating what owners can or cannot do under supervision. It is up to the A&P/IA who he has trust enough in to make that determination. Yes, I know the signing A&P/IA is signing away his certificate should things go wrong.

I have an owner who is within inches of getting certificated as an A&P. He knows and follows the rules to a T. I've looked over his work and have no qualms about putting my name in the log after his signature.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Didn't miss anything, I was working unsupervised on instrument systems as an E-3
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Navy? If so I don't know how the Navy does it but one has to be a 7 level to sign off work and to be a 7 level in the Air Force, you have to be an E-5 or higher.
 
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