Direct supervision by A&P

Bell206 said:
Isos:
Yes, but Part 91 and the operating limitations attached to your airworthiness certificate are applicable and carry the same weight as 43 to a TC'd aircraft,
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EAA said:
FAR Part 43 specifically states that the rules of that part do not apply to experimental, amateur-built aircraft. Therefore, any work (not just maintenance) on an experimental aircraft can be performed virtually by anyone regardless of credentials. (This does not apply to the condition inspection).
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supervision is not needed
 
denverpilot said:
Chief Counsel.



A world where the Chief Counsel writes law instead of lawmakers, just by writing a letter and hiding it in a thousand others in a website instead of in the law books.
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Let's please not ask the Chief Counsel about this, or we risk getting another Mangiamiele.
 
Isosceles said:
supervision is not needed
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Isos:
I believe I said "carry the same weight as 43," not were applicable to your home built. Your operating limitation sheets will contain maintenance guidance for your plane. Those limitations are part of the airworthiness certificate and are regulatory per Part 91... just like Part 43 is to a type certificated aircreaft.
 
bradg33 said:
Let's please not ask the Chief Counsel about this, or we risk getting another Mangiamiele.
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Oh you’ll never see me saying “ask the Chief Counsel” on damn near anything. I was just pointing out how the laws are written and created now.
 
Bell206 said:
Isos:
Your operating limitation sheets will contain maintenance guidance for your plane.
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It does not. Only requires a conditional inspection in the preceding 12 month.
 
I don't have it handy. However all op. limitations letters are compiled by FAA from the master list in

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8130.2H.pdf page C-4. It is pretty lengthy,
but there is nothing there which would require A&P certifications for working on the plane. A&P
(no IA) is only required for the cond. inspection.
 
Isosceles said:
I don't have it handy. However all op. limitations letters are compiled by FAA from the master list in

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8130.2H.pdf page C-4. It is pretty lengthy,
but there is nothing there which would require A&P certifications for working on the place. A&P
(no IA) is only required for the cond. inspection.
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Isos:
We seem to have a blade out of track on this discussion. Nothing has been previously stated saying anything about Part 43 or an A&P being applicable to experimental amateur built aircraft. Nothing.

The conditional inspection you stated IS maintenance guidance. And I'll bet that somewhere in your ops limits sheets there is a statement concerning alterations to the aircraft... that too is maintenance guidance. All of which can be performed by the owner of the aircraft except the conditional insp unless the owner has a repairman cert for that aircraft. If you're talking E-LSA or S-LSA there are other differences.
 
Tom-D said:
Only when you have the repairmen certificate.
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Hmmm. If you are talking about the repairmen cert. per 65.104, then working on the airplane is NOT on the list of the cert. holder privileges. It only gives the privilege to INSPECT.
 
Isosceles said:
Hmmm. If you are talking about the repairmen cert. per 65.104, then working on the airplane is NOT on the list of the cert. holder privileges. It only gives the privilege to INSPECT.
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My point is, when you do not have the Repairmen's certificate you are dependent upon the A&P to do the required inspection.
 
So if a experimental aircraft has a Lycoming engine on it with a lycoming data tag still on it do the airworthiness directives apply. If they do can anyone sign the AD off or does it have to be someone with the repairman or A&P sign off the AD.
 
brien23 said:
So if a experimental aircraft has a Lycoming engine on it with a lycoming data tag still on it do the airworthiness directives apply. If they do can anyone sign the AD off or does it have to be someone with the repairman or A&P sign off the AD.
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brien:
The AD will apply only if directed by the applicability statement. That statement will probably not say "installed in experimental aircraft" but rather something like "applicable to all engines."

As to who can sign off the AD, I'm not 100% sure, but I think who ever is qualified to perform maintenance on the affected aircraft can note compliance in the aircraft record. There is guidance on this but I don't have access to it at my current location.
 
AC 39-7D:

b. Non-TC’d Aircraft and Products Installed Thereon. Non-TC’d aircraft (e.g., amateur-built aircraft, experimental exhibition) are aircraft for which the FAA has not issued a TC under part 21. The AD applicability statement will identify if the AD applies to non-TC’d aircraft or engines, propellers, and appliances installed thereon. The following are examples of applicability statements for ADs related to non-TC’d aircraft: (1) “This AD applies to Honeywell International Inc. Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) models GTCP36-150(R) and GTCP36-150(RR). These APUs are installed on, but not limited to, Fokker Services B.V. Model F.28 Mark 0100 and F.28 Mark 0070 airplanes, and Mustang Aeronautics, Inc. Model Mustang II experimental airplanes. This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed APU models installed.” This statement makes the AD applicable to the listed auxiliary power unit (APU) models installed on TC’d aircraft, as well as non-TC’d aircraft. (2) “This AD applies to Lycoming Engines Models AEIO-360-A1A and IO-360-A1A. This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed engine models installed.” This statement makes the AD applicable to the listed engine models installed on TC’d and non-TC’d aircraft.


However, it appears that it's a pretty recent change. I guess ADs issued before that AC apply without explicit mentioning of experimental aircraft
 
"Required Inspection(s)" is defined in parts 121, shown below, and similarly worded in parts 125, 135, and possibly others.

121.369 Manual requirements.
(a) The certificate holder shall put in its manual a chart or description of the certificate holder's organization required by §121.365 and a list of persons with whom it has arranged for the performance of any of its required inspections, other maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alterations, including a general description of that work.
(b) The certificate holder's manual must contain the programs required by §121.367 that must be followed in performing maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations of that certificate holder's airplanes, including airframes, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, emergency equipment, and parts thereof, and must include at least the following:
(1) The method of performing routine and nonroutine maintenance (other than required inspections), preventive maintenance, and alterations.
(2) A designation of the items of maintenance and alteration that must be inspected (required inspections), including at least those that could result in a failure, malfunction, or defect endangering the safe operation of the aircraft, if not performed properly or if improper parts or materials are used.
(3) The method of performing required inspections and a designation by occupational title of personnel authorized to perform each required inspection.
(4) Procedures for the reinspection of work performed pursuant to previous required inspection findings (buy-back procedures).
(5) Procedures, standards, and limits necessary for required inspections and acceptance or rejection of the items required to be inspected and for periodic inspection and calibration of precision tools, measuring devices, and test equipment.
(6) Procedures to ensure that all required inspections are performed.
(7) Instructions to prevent any person who performs any item of work from performing any required inspection of that work.
(8) Instructions and procedures to prevent any decision of an inspector, regarding any required inspection from being countermanded by persons other than supervisory personnel of the inspection unit, or a person at that level of administrative control that has overall responsibility for the management of both the required inspection functions and the other maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations functions.
(9) Procedures to ensure that required inspections, other maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that are not completed as a result of shift changes or similar work interruptions are properly completed before the aircraft is released to service.
(10) Policies, procedures, methods, and instructions for the accomplishment of all maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations carried out by a maintenance provider. These policies, procedures, methods, and instructions must be acceptable to the FAA and provide for the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations to be performed in accordance with the certificate holder's maintenance program and maintenance manual.
(c) The certificate holder must set forth in its manual a suitable system (which may include a coded system) that provides for preservation and retrieval of information in a manner acceptable to the Administrator and that provides—
(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed;
(2) The name of the person performing the work if the work is performed by a person outside the organization of the certificate holder; and
(3) The name or other positive identification of the individual approving the work.
121.371 Required inspection personnel.
(a) No person may use any person to perform required inspections unless the person performing the inspection is appropriately certificated, properly trained, qualified, and authorized to do so.
(b) No person may allow any person to perform a required inspection unless, at that time, the person performing that inspection is under the supervision and control of an inspection unit.
(c) No person may perform a required inspection if he performed the item of work required to be inspected.
(d) Each certificate holder shall maintain, or shall determine that each person with whom it arranges to perform its required inspections maintains, a current listing of persons who have been trained, qualified, and authorized to conduct required inspections. The persons must be identified by name, occupational title, and the inspections that they are authorized to perform. The certificate holder (or person with whom it arranges to perform its required inspections) shall give written information to each person so authorized describing the extent of his responsibilities, authorities, and inspectional limitations. The list shall be made available for inspection by the Administrator upon request.
 
GlennAB1 said:
It's not a "required inspection". The FAA is very clear on what a "required inspection" is.
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I wonder ?? what a conditional inspection is in your view, that is what we were talking about.
Only two people are certified to do those, the repairman who was issued the repairman certificate for the N number or an A&P.
 
GlennAB1 said:
"Required Inspection(s)" is defined in parts 121, shown below, and similarly worded in parts 125, 135, and possibly others.

121.369 Manual requirements.
(a) The certificate holder shall put in its manual a chart or description of the certificate holder's organization required by §121.365 and a list of persons with whom it has arranged for the performance of any of its required inspections, other maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alterations, including a general description of that work.
(b) The certificate holder's manual must contain the programs required by §121.367 that must be followed in performing maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations of that certificate holder's airplanes, including airframes, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, emergency equipment, and parts thereof, and must include at least the following:
(1) The method of performing routine and nonroutine maintenance (other than required inspections), preventive maintenance, and alterations.
(2) A designation of the items of maintenance and alteration that must be inspected (required inspections), including at least those that could result in a failure, malfunction, or defect endangering the safe operation of the aircraft, if not performed properly or if improper parts or materials are used.
(3) The method of performing required inspections and a designation by occupational title of personnel authorized to perform each required inspection.
(4) Procedures for the reinspection of work performed pursuant to previous required inspection findings (buy-back procedures).
(5) Procedures, standards, and limits necessary for required inspections and acceptance or rejection of the items required to be inspected and for periodic inspection and calibration of precision tools, measuring devices, and test equipment.
(6) Procedures to ensure that all required inspections are performed.
(7) Instructions to prevent any person who performs any item of work from performing any required inspection of that work.
(8) Instructions and procedures to prevent any decision of an inspector, regarding any required inspection from being countermanded by persons other than supervisory personnel of the inspection unit, or a person at that level of administrative control that has overall responsibility for the management of both the required inspection functions and the other maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations functions.
(9) Procedures to ensure that required inspections, other maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that are not completed as a result of shift changes or similar work interruptions are properly completed before the aircraft is released to service.
(10) Policies, procedures, methods, and instructions for the accomplishment of all maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations carried out by a maintenance provider. These policies, procedures, methods, and instructions must be acceptable to the FAA and provide for the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations to be performed in accordance with the certificate holder's maintenance program and maintenance manual.
(c) The certificate holder must set forth in its manual a suitable system (which may include a coded system) that provides for preservation and retrieval of information in a manner acceptable to the Administrator and that provides—
(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed;
(2) The name of the person performing the work if the work is performed by a person outside the organization of the certificate holder; and
(3) The name or other positive identification of the individual approving the work.
121.371 Required inspection personnel.
(a) No person may use any person to perform required inspections unless the person performing the inspection is appropriately certificated, properly trained, qualified, and authorized to do so.
(b) No person may allow any person to perform a required inspection unless, at that time, the person performing that inspection is under the supervision and control of an inspection unit.
(c) No person may perform a required inspection if he performed the item of work required to be inspected.
(d) Each certificate holder shall maintain, or shall determine that each person with whom it arranges to perform its required inspections maintains, a current listing of persons who have been trained, qualified, and authorized to conduct required inspections. The persons must be identified by name, occupational title, and the inspections that they are authorized to perform. The certificate holder (or person with whom it arranges to perform its required inspections) shall give written information to each person so authorized describing the extent of his responsibilities, authorities, and inspectional limitations. The list shall be made available for inspection by the Administrator upon request.
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What does part 121 have to do with the Aircraft that are flown by the folks here?

OH WAIT.. some one here might own United Airlines.. :)
 
There are plenty of inspections required in part 121, too, but "required inspection(s)" is a very specific term. Even mechanics in 121 get it wrong. Had one not too long ago that came over from the line asking about getting an inspector to do a work card with him because the card had on it "Inspection required by date..." Explained it to him and after showing him that the w/c only had a single sign-off line for mechanic, I think he got it.
 
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Isosceles said:
AC 39-7D:

b. Non-TC’d Aircraft and Products Installed Thereon. Non-TC’d aircraft (e.g., amateur-built aircraft, experimental exhibition) are aircraft for which the FAA has not issued a TC under part 21. The AD applicability statement will identify if the AD applies to non-TC’d aircraft or engines, propellers, and appliances installed thereon. The following are examples of applicability statements for ADs related to non-TC’d aircraft: (1) “This AD applies to Honeywell International Inc. Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) models GTCP36-150(R) and GTCP36-150(RR). These APUs are installed on, but not limited to, Fokker Services B.V. Model F.28 Mark 0100 and F.28 Mark 0070 airplanes, and Mustang Aeronautics, Inc. Model Mustang II experimental airplanes. This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed APU models installed.” This statement makes the AD applicable to the listed auxiliary power unit (APU) models installed on TC’d aircraft, as well as non-TC’d aircraft. (2) “This AD applies to Lycoming Engines Models AEIO-360-A1A and IO-360-A1A. This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed engine models installed.” This statement makes the AD applicable to the listed engine models installed on TC’d and non-TC’d aircraft.


However, it appears that it's a pretty recent change. I guess ADs issued before that AC apply without explicit mentioning of experimental aircraft
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Isos:
To look at this from another angle, by regulation all ADs are applicable to all products and articles under FAA jurisdiction. To narrow the application of an AD, the feds draft the AD applicability statement to target the products or articles requiring further action. As your example shows, this targeting can be general or specific: by make and model, TC/Non-TC, or any aircraft.

Todays version of an AD app statement is much better than those in the past. AD app statements from the past would usually exempt items from applicability leaving a lot of gray area to interpretation. For example, it would say "all TIO-540s installed in any aircraft EXCEPT those in the experimental aircraft." Today, instead of exempting an item, the ADs list which items ARE applicable. It may seem a play on words, but from my view it cleared up some of the gray area. This is the same reason you see more AD revisions today as they expand the applicability in some cases.
 
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