Difficult to find a full time job as CFI?

FLYGUYRY

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Ryan_M
So I had a pretty interesting talk with the chief pilot at my flight school the other day. I'm in a professional pilot program at a local university here in Baltimore and am planning on making flying a career. As I was talking to him about this he made the comment that it's very difficult to find full time work as a CFI, which I thought was odd and certainly not what I had seen browsing indeed or any other job board. Can anyone chime in with their thoughts? I understand it certainly doesn't pay much but neither does your first couple years as a FO with a regional. Am I wrong in planning on instructing full time once I get my CFII ??
 
Probably depends entirely on where you are or where you look. A buddy went to the Cal Aggie flying Farmers at UCD and got all the hours he could handle.
 
I'm guessing that while CFI jobs may be out there, many CFIs are not getting enough billable hours to be comparable to full time. I doubt there are very many CFI jobs out there based on a 40 hour week compensation package.
 
There is no shortage of CFIs and it's not difficult to find a job. I made about 35K as an instructor but that was working about 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.
 
That's rough. How intense is the airline compared to that?
I'm working half as much and getting paid about 15K more. I have 15 days off this month. At the flight school we made our own schedules. We could fly 1 day a week or everyday if we wanted to. I could have taken more days off but I wanted to get the hours.
 
I'm working half as much and getting paid about 15K more. I have 15 days off this month. At the flight school we made our own schedules. We could fly 1 day a week or everyday if we wanted to. I could have taken more days off but I wanted to get the hours.

Ok good to hear, this was what I was planning on doing if possible. I'm 33 and will probably be halfway to 35 by the time I finish my training so wanted to move somewhere southwest and instruct 6 days a week if possible to get those 1250 hours. No family no gf just me so was hoping it was possible. Not getting any younger!
 
Will be interesting to see how flight schools and the regionals will handle the new overtime rules going in effect. Like most of us, they'll probably have to be diligent about limiting employees to 40 hours/week.
 
Personal opinion, but the guys I've talked to who are struggling to find CFI work are the ones who have a specific place or area they want to live. If you want the hours and are willing to relocate I can't imagine it would be too hard to find a CFI job right now, with the hiring frenzy at the airlines.
 
There is no shortage of CFIs and it's not difficult to find a job. I made about 35K as an instructor but that was working about 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.
So if a Cessna Pilot Center Charges $60 an hour for an instructor how much of that would the CFI actually make? I know CPC instructors make more than but I can't imagine its by much.
 
So if a Cessna Pilot Center Charges $60 an hour for an instructor how much of that would the CFI actually make? I know CPC instructors make more than but I can't imagine its by much.
All depends on the school.
 
So if a Cessna Pilot Center Charges $60 an hour for an instructor how much of that would the CFI actually make? I know CPC instructors make more than but I can't imagine its by much.

I previously taught at two different flight schools in different parts of the country. One charged $38/hour and paid the CFI $20, one charged $40 and paid $25. SO that gives you an idea. No, I don't think it's a linear relationship - I know schools that charge far more per hour but still pay the same to the CFIs.

Once I built up a network of clients, I quickly realized I could do far better than $20-25 by being independent. I am only part-time, but could probably go mostly full-time if I wanted. Like previously said, depends on what area of the country you're in - we seem to have a shortage of CFIs here, which of course is good for me and my local fellow CFIs!
 
I previously taught at two different flight schools in different parts of the country. One charged $38/hour and paid the CFI $20, one charged $40 and paid $25. SO that gives you an idea. No, I don't think it's a linear relationship - I know schools that charge far more per hour but still pay the same to the CFIs.

Once I built up a network of clients, I quickly realized I could do far better than $20-25 by being independent. I am only part-time, but could probably go mostly full-time if I wanted. Like previously said, depends on what area of the country you're in - we seem to have a shortage of CFIs here, which of course is good for me and my local fellow CFIs!
Ok so for my sanity's sake I hope my instructor makes at least 60% of the amount I pay the school.
 
Ok so for my sanity's sake I hope my instructor makes at least 60% of the amount I pay the school.

Don't count on it. A local flight school charges $50/hr for instruction and the instructor gets $20. And that was just for the billable hours (Flight and Ground) not for fueling, getting the planes in and out of the hangar, etc. There's also the down time (read unpaid) between lessons if you can't get the students to sign up back-to-back. (I know one FBO that always left one hour between lessons in case the previous one went long. Nice idea, but unpaid time for an instructor.)
 
I've never had a problem finding work as a CFI, freelance CFI, part time CFI, full time CFI, etc.

If you have some people/marketing/sales skills, I'd find a plane you can rent and give instruction in, free lance, $50hr cash/trade/barter.
 
Will be interesting to see how flight schools and the regionals will handle the new overtime rules going in effect. Like most of us, they'll probably have to be diligent about limiting employees to 40 hours/week.

Not sure if that rule would affect 1099 employees.
 
If the school is providing the plane and student then you probably shouldn't be a 1099 employee, check the acid test at the IRS site

You must be new to aviation :)
 
Hardly. Just because it's done doesn't mean it passes the IRS rules. I know this is true from a prior employee of mine. Look it up.

I'm not arguing that point, but it's super common in those entry level / mom and pop aviation jobs.

Pilots just don't tend to make a big deal over it
 
If the school is providing the plane and student then you probably shouldn't be a 1099 employee, check the acid test at the IRS site
If that were true, the IRS would have an absolute field day with ATP flight school. Their CFIs are 1099 contractors.

I suspect your comment is missing some facts.
 
*Sigh*

Again speaking from first hand experience as an employer...

from the IRS website -
"You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed."

I learned this lesson the hard way. Advice is free to be taken. The source was given for you look and determine yourselves but its easier I guess to cast baseless aspersions.

I suspect your comment is ignorant at best.
 
*Sigh*

Again speaking from first hand experience as an employer...

from the IRS website -
"You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed."

I learned this lesson the hard way. Advice is free to be taken. The source was given for you look and determine yourselves but its easier I guess to cast baseless aspersions.

I suspect your comment is ignorant at best.
I think you have more IRS experience than flight school experience. Are you an active CFI or flight school owner ?
 
I think you have more IRS experience than flight school experience. Are you an active CFI or flight school owner ?

Doesn't really matter. The IRS rules are the rules, the business type is immaterial.

That most businesses in aviation get away with it, is also immaterial to his point.

Let's use another example: The IT field gets away with breaking overtime rules ALL the time. Didn't matter in the slightest when a former employer of mine was hit with a very well documented complaint about it after a layoff.

They not only paid the maid off person handsomely (three years of overtime at time and a half on top of his severance), and a fine to the State agency overseeing the complaint, they immediately made a number of us who were formerly listed as exempt into hourly employees at a REALLY high hourly rate.

I loved that job. There was always 80 hours of work to be done if you wanted it, every week. I didn't, but anytime I wanted cash for a personal goal, holy hell it was easy to get.

That (truly awful and useless) former co-worker who kept all those OCD notes about hours and who told them they had to do things and all that for a few YEARS made me a ****-ton of money. Like nearly doubling my salary for years after that layoff.

Methinks the company would have been way better off cash-wise not to have let him go, by multiples of his salary. But they didn't know he was building a case. All it took was him knowing the law and them breaking it, and them giving him a reason to sue. Word was the judge listened to the company attorneys from out of State for about ten minutes and ruled. The State law they were breaking wasn't unclear or imprecise.
 
Doesn't really matter. The IRS rules are the rules, the business type is immaterial.

That most businesses in aviation get away with it, is also immaterial to his point.

Let's use another example: The IT field gets away with breaking overtime rules ALL the time. Didn't matter in the slightest when a former employer of mine was hit with a very well documented complaint about it after a layoff.

They not only paid the maid off person handsomely (three years of overtime at time and a half on top of his severance), and a fine to the State agency overseeing the complaint, they immediately made a number of us who were formerly listed as exempt into hourly employees at a REALLY high hourly rate.

I loved that job. There was always 80 hours of work to be done if you wanted it, every week. I didn't, but anytime I wanted cash for a personal goal, holy hell it was easy to get.

That (truly awful and useless) former co-worker who kept all those OCD notes about hours and who told them they had to do things and all that for a few YEARS made me a ****-ton of money. Like nearly doubling my salary for years after that layoff.

Methinks the company would have been way better off cash-wise not to have let him go, by multiples of his salary. But they didn't know he was building a case. All it took was him knowing the law and them breaking it, and them giving him a reason to sue. Word was the judge listened to the company attorneys from out of State for about ten minutes and ruled. The State law they were breaking wasn't unclear or imprecise.
Wow, that was a really wordy post ! And pretty much none of it having to do with aviation either. It did however confirm for me how really glad I am to not be in that line of work!
 
Wow, that was a really wordy post ! And pretty much none of it having to do with aviation either. It did however confirm for me how really glad I am to not be in that line of work!

Has everything to do with aviation. Tax law, employment law... you'll get away with skirting it for a while, and then the hammer will fall. All it takes is one ticked former employee.

Keep handing out 1099s to employees that meet the standard for needing to be considered full time, and see.
 
No family no gf just me so was hoping it was possible. Not getting any younger!
Hahah...I'm in the same situation but haven't started my Professional Airline Program yet...I'm prepared to move anyway to get the 1500TT.
 
I've never had a problem finding work as a CFI, freelance CFI, part time CFI, full time CFI, etc.

If you have some people/marketing/sales skills, I'd find a plane you can rent and give instruction in, free lance, $50hr cash/trade/barter.

Good to know, I thought that statement was a little odd. Perhaps he thought I was thinking I could find a guaranteed 40 hour a week job, which of course I know isn't possible, I just want to be able to work 6x a week or so if possible and fly as much as I can.
 
Hahah...I'm in the same situation but haven't started my Professional Airline Program yet...I'm prepared to move anyway to get the 1500TT.

Yeah I'm definitely moving. I'm in Maryland and the weather here is....difficult, at best. I'll be quitting my career of the last 10 years to flight instruct full time to get those hours ASAP so I will likely move out west somewhere...Texas, Arizona, California etc
 
Yeah I'm definitely moving. I'm in Maryland and the weather here is....difficult, at best. I'll be quitting my career of the last 10 years to flight instruct full time to get those hours ASAP so I will likely move out west somewhere...Texas, Arizona, California etc
yeah I understand the moving aspect. I live in LA, weather is VMC about 73% of the year. Currently overseas though...I'll be training full-time then possibly moving for a CFI job or a part 135 or part 91 job. I'm really in no rush and I'm a few years older than you...
 
yeah I understand the moving aspect. I live in LA, weather is VMC about 73% of the year. Currently overseas though...I'll be training full-time then possibly moving for a CFI job or a part 135 or part 91 job. I'm really in no rush and I'm a few years older than you...

Not sure how likley you'll end up with a 135 or 91k job right out of flight school.

More likley a CFI, banner tow (if you have tailwheel time), maybe a DZ, etc.
 
Not sure how likley you'll end up with a 135 or 91k job right out of flight school.
I've read stories about low hours pilots landing night cargo jobs...of course these probably are the few exceptions. I'm realistic however and would expect the normal hiring opportunities. This is why I said 'possibly'. With 10K POA messages I'd hope you knew what you are talking about. Thanks.
 
If that were true, the IRS would have an absolute field day with ATP flight school. Their CFIs are 1099 contractors.

I suspect your comment is missing some facts.

The IRS doesn't care much on whether some mom+pop business fib on their IC status (they only act on national accounts like Pulte builders). The IRS still gets their pound of flesh under 1099, they only lose out under the deductions an IC can take.

Who really cares about this are the state unemployment and workmans comp folks because they are cut out of the revenue stream.
 
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If the school is providing the plane and student then you probably shouldn't be a 1099 employee, check the acid test at the IRS site

Nope, do it all the time. I used to run a music studio where we had teachers on 1099. We supplied the room and the equipment they supplied themselves. We charged a rate to the customer and they got a portion of that rate.
 
I've read stories about low hours pilots landing night cargo jobs...of course these probably are the few exceptions. I'm realistic however and would expect the normal hiring opportunities. This is why I said 'possibly'. With 10K POA messages I'd hope you knew what you are talking about. Thanks.

Well that depends on who you ask ;)

I'd recommend having your first few jobs as single pilot PIC jobs, think you build a better foundation when you start off as the first and last word in the cockpit.
 
So I had a pretty interesting talk with the chief pilot at my flight school the other day. I'm in a professional pilot program at a local university here in Baltimore and am planning on making flying a career. As I was talking to him about this he made the comment that it's very difficult to find full time work as a CFI, which I thought was odd and certainly not what I had seen browsing indeed or any other job board. Can anyone chime in with their thoughts? I understand it certainly doesn't pay much but neither does your first couple years as a FO with a regional. Am I wrong in planning on instructing full time once I get my CFII ??


Are you still looking for the CFI job?
 
yeah I understand the moving aspect. I live in LA, weather is VMC about 73% of the year. Currently overseas though...I'll be training full-time then possibly moving for a CFI job or a part 135 or part 91 job. I'm really in no rush and I'm a few years older than you...
Thank you for the 73% summary. How can we get the exact data of VMC statistic? Appreciate your help
 
Thank you for the 73% summary. How can we get the exact data of VMC statistic? Appreciate your help

Gema: Please check out link: http://www.jasonblair.net/?p=743

Jason Blair wrote an article titled "Where is the Best Weather for Flight Training (In the United States)" dated March 24, 2015.

He conducted an extensive weather study of major training areas by cities. He looked at areas which reported low percentage days for VFR maneuvers i.e. Grand Forks, ND compared to other areas with high percentage VFR training days like Las Vegas, NV.

I was researching weather in order to determine if I needed to train in another cities, oppose to Los Angeles, CA. Mr. Blair presented some interesting pros and cons for training in different areas...also once you are training for your instrument rating or have it...I guess it does not matter as much.
 
I'd recommend having your first few jobs as single pilot PIC jobs

Would you know typically how many TT hours are required for these single pilot jobs? And provide a possible current example..i.e. job posting.

I'd like to read the pilot requirements. Thanks.
 
If you want to stay semi-local for a while, GT Aviation was looking for instructors a little while ago. It is a part 141 school that operates out of Potomac Airfield (VKX) and Maryland Airport (2W5).

If the main objective is to build hours, you may have to move south to seek better weather and the steady student supply of a puppy mill.
 
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