Diesel motors for planes?

Henning said:
Are those the spark plug Diesel rotaries that the Navy uses for their outboards?
Click to expand...

Nope....

Unfortunately all three are out already.... One is motor problems for sure. The other two I can't tell what failed, if its transmission or other accessories... First face for the cars with absolutely no test time on the cars... Pretty bold roll of the dice for Mazda...


race is live on Speed Tv..
 
N801BH said:
Nope....

Unfortunately all three are out already.... One is motor problems for sure. The other two I can't tell what failed, if its transmission or other accessories... First face for the cars with absolutely no test time on the cars... Pretty bold roll of the dice for Mazda...


race is live on Speed Tv..
Click to expand...

Audi have any Diesels running? The phenolic block 60° V-10 from the Q-7 is a favorite of mine for aero conversion. Puts out peak torque right at good prop speed.
 
Henning said:
Audi have any Diesels running? The phenolic block 60° V-10 from the Q-7 is a favorite of mine for aero conversion. Puts out peak torque right at good prop speed.
Click to expand...

No. Audi runs the diesels in WEC. This is Grand Am, which is merging with ALMS, which follows the similar rules to WEC.

But even Audi has gone to a diesel hybrid.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
No. Audi runs the diesels in WEC. This is Grand Am, which is merging with ALMS, which follows the similar rules to WEC.

But even Audi has gone to a diesel hybrid.
Click to expand...

The #70 and the #25 cars are both out due to "cylinder failure" I don't know if it is pistons, valves, head or what, but they are terminal.... The #00 car is back in and running decent.... They never said what brought that one in..
 
N801BH said:
The #70 and the #25 cars are both out due to "cylinder failure" I don't know if it is pistons, valves, head or what, but they are terminal.... The #00 car is back in and running decent.... They never said what brought that one in..
Click to expand...

Back to the drawing board. :lol:


;)
 
Geico266 said:
Back to the drawing board. :lol:


;)
Click to expand...

:(.. You have to start somewhere...:yes:..

If I wasn't so damn old I would love to be on the ground floor of a aircraft diesel development program... It is the future.. and I bet I could pull it off.:wink2:
 
N801BH said:
:(.. You have to start somewhere...:yes:..

If I wasn't so damn old I would love to be on the ground floor of a aircraft diesel development program... It is the future.. and I bet I could pull it off.:wink2:
Click to expand...

SMA spent one billion dollars on their clean-sheet diesel aircraft engine development. It's no wonder they cost so much. And the cost keeps the sales numbers low, which just makes each engine that much more expensive.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
SMA spent one billion dollars on their clean-sheet diesel aircraft engine development. It's no wonder they cost so much. And the cost keeps the sales numbers low, which just makes each engine that much more expensive.

Dan
Click to expand...

Yup... A billion dollars wasted too...............

I propose to go into the venture with a open mind,,, Not a corporate mentality one...........

99.3% of the people who saw me putting a V-8 Ford in a Zenith said it would NEVER fly..... That was 400+ hours ago... All those skeptics are long gone now....

I really HATE negative people...:yes::mad:
 
99.3% of the people who saw me putting a V-8 Ford in a Zenith said it would NEVER fly..... That was 400+ hours ago... All those skeptics are long gone now....
Click to expand...

Correct me if I am wrong (definitely not an engine guy) but isn't the primary issue not with the engines themselves but with the reduction units necessary to get the prop speeds down so the tips are not going supersonic?

My pet theory is that the problem is not the designs or products but how people are using them. Geared engines aren't as tolerant to abuse (slamming the throttle back and forth aggressively, etc) as a direct drive engine and have to be flown very carefully (or so I have been told) but if they are treated properly and maintained regularly then you don't have a problem. Maybe the reason we haven't seen a reliable across the board auto conversion for experimentals is that we have a bunch of ham-fisted pilots forgetting that you have more complicated piece of machinery up front than what was on their Cessna 172 trainer. Maybe the wrong thing on the "minimum equipment list" is getting the blame....
 
Last edited:
SteveinIndy said:
Correct me if I am wrong (definitely not an engine guy) but isn't the primary issue not with the engines themselves but with the reduction units necessary to get the prop speeds down so the tips are not going supersonic?

My pet theory is that the problem is not the designs or products but how people are using them. Geared engines aren't as tolerant to abuse (slamming the throttle back and forth aggressively, etc) as a direct drive engine and have to be flown very carefully (or so I have been told) but if they are treated properly and maintained regularly then you don't have a problem. Maybe the reason we haven't seen a reliable across the board auto conversion for experimentals is that we have a bunch of ham-fisted pilots forgetting that you have more complicated piece of machinery up front than what was on their Cessna 172 trainer. Maybe the wrong thing on the "minimum equipment list" is getting the blame....
Click to expand...

That and most car engines produce peak power at higher RPM.
 
SteveinIndy said:
Correct me if I am wrong (definitely not an engine guy) but isn't the primary issue not with the engines themselves but with the reduction units necessary to get the prop speeds down so the tips are not going supersonic?

My pet theory is that the problem is not the designs or products but how people are using them. Geared engines aren't as tolerant to abuse (slamming the throttle back and forth aggressively, etc) as a direct drive engine and have to be flown very carefully (or so I have been told) but if they are treated properly and maintained regularly then you don't have a problem. Maybe the reason we haven't seen a reliable across the board auto conversion for experimentals is that we have a bunch of ham-fisted pilots forgetting that you have more complicated piece of machinery up front than what was on their Cessna 172 trainer. Maybe the wrong thing on the "minimum equipment list" is getting the blame....
Click to expand...

The advantage to geared engines is they are more resistant to detonation running lower ICPs and higher RPMs. Ben is running a supercharger belt which can handle 600+HP. The real key is that no engine is happy with throttle slamming abuse, up is not an issue, but down is what stretches rod bolts and spins bearings. The greatest issue is weight.
 
Stan Fetter who flies traffic spotting for the DC Area put Theilerts in the 172's he flies (I've still got the keys to 73FR somewhere). The problem with them was Theilert went belly up.

Geared engines are no panacea. What they gain in efficiency is almost always offset in the added weight of the redrive. I don't have real kind things to say about the Lycoming gopher engines.
 
flyingron said:
Stan Fetter who flies traffic spotting for the DC Area put Theilerts in the 172's he flies (I've still got the keys to 73FR somewhere). The problem with them was Theilert went belly up.

Geared engines are no panacea. What they gain in efficiency is almost always offset in the added weight of the redrive. I don't have real kind things to say about the Lycoming gopher engines.
Click to expand...

I ran a pair of IGSO-480s, thought they were just fine.:dunno:
 
The advantage to geared engines is they are more resistant to detonation running lower ICPs and higher RPMs. Ben is running a supercharger belt which can handle 600+HP.
Click to expand...

OK....dumb question: What's an ICP? You say that and I think "intracranial pressure".

The real key is that no engine is happy with throttle slamming abuse, up is not an issue, but down is what stretches rod bolts and spins bearings. The greatest issue is weight.
Click to expand...

I didn't think any engine liked it but was always taught that aircraft with reduction drives/gearboxes were less tolerant than those without. I wasn't aware that the "down" was the issue. Like I said....firewall forward is foreign territory for me so thanks for teaching me more about it.
 
Actually, I think that the Thielert methodology wasn't a bad one, they just didn't have enough control over production because of their use of Mercedes parts. The gearboxes were also poorly designed, which created a lot of issues.

Ben would be able to do it right.
 
SteveinIndy said:
OK....dumb question: What's an ICP? You say that and I think "intracranial pressure".



I didn't think any engine liked it but was always taught that aircraft with reduction drives/gearboxes were less tolerant than those without. I wasn't aware that the "down" was the issue. Like I said....firewall forward is foreign territory for me so thanks for teaching me more about it.
Click to expand...

Intra cylinder pressure, same thing really, you need enough but if you have too much, things turn to mush.

The gear box is much more delicate than the engine.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Actually, I think that the Thielert methodology wasn't a bad one, they just didn't have enough control over production because of their use of Mercedes parts. The gearboxes were also poorly designed, which created a lot of issues.

Ben would be able to do it right.
Click to expand...

The cure to the Diesel problems came with high pressure common rail digital injection.
 
Henning said:
The cure to the Diesel problems came with high pressure common rail digital injection.
Click to expand...


I agree 100%... That cured the nasty power pulses the old style 2500PSI CAV. Rosamaster and Bosch injector pumps created.... Evolution is a wonderful thing.:yes:
 
N801BH said:
I agree 100%... That cured the nasty power pulses the old style 2500PSI CAV. Rosamaster and Bosch injector pumps created.... Evolution is a wonderful thing.:yes:
Click to expand...

Huge improvements with CRDI diesels vs. the old style mechanical injector pumps, no doubt. However, the pressure pulses are still very high. I think the last time I ran one with cylinder probes it was something on the order of 800-1000 psi peak at idle, and only went up from there.

For comparison, 800-1000 psi is the peak that you'll see in most Lycoming/Continentals at rated.
 
N801BH said:
I agree 100%... That cured the nasty power pulses the old style 2500PSI CAV. Rosamaster and Bosch injector pumps created.... Evolution is a wonderful thing.:yes:
Click to expand...

Don't forget the....wait for it.... Lucas pumps.:yikes:
 
flyingron said:
At least Lycoming still admits to making the 480. The 435's not so much.
Click to expand...

The 290s and 435s have pretty close to 0 support. Same for the 541s.
 
Diesel racing is not new. Back in the early years they had to ban diesels at Indy. To fast, they said it was unfair to the rest of the field.
 
1600vw said:
Diesel racing is not new. Back in the early years they had to ban diesels at Indy. To fast, they said it was unfair to the rest of the field.
Click to expand...

Not to mention the saved time in pitting that doesn't have to happen since a gallon of Diesel takes you a whole lot further than a gallon of methanol.
 
Torque is a killer in diesel race cars. The engines can be built fairly light ( in comparison to road diesels) but the gearboxes need to be heavier to handle the torque. I worked on Indy car gearboxes for 15 years and thought our gears were pretty small. I got to see a formula 1 car shop in england one year and they showed us their gearbox....it was amazing. The change gears were 3/8" thick where ours were 3/4". They were running 18,000 + rpm normally where we ran more in the 14,000rpm range. Our engines put out about the same power....700-800HP but we had more torque. Their gears would never survive our engine and after seeing what a Chevy 350 did to one of our gearboxes I think diesel will require a much heavier gear. A racing series of more mom and pop type bought old indy cars and re-engined them with small blocks or ford engines of that type. They put out less horsepower and ran at much lower rpm but put out more torque. The biggest mechanical issue for their races was loss of gears. I was amazed at how badly some of the gear teeth were bent before they broke. Torque is your friend with a prop on direct drive but it can be a problem with a gearbox....I love diesels and hope they take off (literally) but I'm not holding my breath waiting for a lightweight durable gearbox.


Frank
 
I put a SB Chevy in a Ferrari 360, dude split the gearbox when he hit 2nd gear the first time out (kinda thought it would but he was adamant) and it only had 550ftlbs of torque. What I would personally like to try for a reduction unit is a Lenco section for high and low engine speed. I know they can handle it lol.
 
N801BH said:
Yup... A billion dollars wasted too...............

I propose to go into the venture with a open mind,,, Not a corporate mentality one...........

99.3% of the people who saw me putting a V-8 Ford in a Zenith said it would NEVER fly..... That was 400+ hours ago... All those skeptics are long gone now....

I really HATE negative people...:yes::mad:
Click to expand...

Are you running an iron block on your Ford? I've always wondered what a de-accessorized Duramax would weigh. I know some experimentals running LS based gas engines (although probably the all aluminum version), can't imagine it would be too difficult to run a diesel in a plane. I think Isuzu has a v6 version of the duramax that's used over seas.
 
The Italians make an aluminum Diesel, I forget the name, but it's rather large for a GA plane. The Audi uses a phenolic block and aluminum heads IIRC.
 
Henning said:
The Italians make an aluminum Diesel, I forget the name, but it's rather large for a GA plane. The Audi uses a phenolic block and aluminum heads IIRC.
Click to expand...

It would be great to see, I'm curious about longevity as well. Major overhauls would probably get to be stretched further apart with appropriate maintenance. Mine has just over 8000 hours on it, has never left me stranded. It has run rough/low on power when one of the injectors failed. But it still ran and produced enough to keep the truck moving at highways speeds. I feel bad for the folks behind me because they were driving through IFR. :D
 
guardrail said:
Are you running an iron block on your Ford? I've always wondered what a de-accessorized Duramax would weigh. I know some experimentals running LS based gas engines (although probably the all aluminum version), can't imagine it would be too difficult to run a diesel in a plane. I think Isuzu has a v6 version of the duramax that's used over seas.
Click to expand...

The motor is entirely aluminum.... 437 lbs Complete... lighter then a 0-360 lyc with a constant speed prop and more then twice the horsepower and 1/3 less fuel burn per HP....

This video shows all the details...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCNnEgRkdXc&context=
 
Henning said:
Don't forget the....wait for it.... Lucas pumps.:yikes:
Click to expand...

Why do the British drink warm beer?




















Wait for it...















Because they keep it in Lucas refrigerators. :D










Yes, I know. Lucas doesn't make refrigerators. However...
 
guardrail said:
can't imagine it would be too difficult to run a diesel in a plane. I think Isuzu has a v6 version of the duramax that's used over seas.
Click to expand...
One issue is that jet fuel doesn't lubricate the high pressure pump as well as diesel.
 
Ghery said:
Yes, I know. Lucas doesn't make refrigerators. However...
Click to expand...

I've always found non-existant refrigerators to provide the worst cooling.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
One issue is that jet fuel doesn't lubricate the high pressure pump as well as diesel.
Click to expand...

Correct. The aircraft diesels I've seen have used an "off-road" pump that is designed to be more reliable with poor lubricity.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
One issue is that jet fuel doesn't lubricate the high pressure pump as well as diesel.
Click to expand...

No worries, buy 'red Diesel' at half to a third of the price of JetA. There are alo additives to use in Jet A/Kerosene that handle the problem. More to the point, this is a problem more with the mechanical injector pumps, not so much with the Common Rail EFI systems.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top