Did I bust Class C @ Burbank?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
So here's a situation where I didn't know what to do. Hopefully I did the right thing.

I was on flight following with ATC from Big Bear to Whiteman. ATC handed me off to Burbank just as I crossed into their airspace. I requested transition, but the controller was extremely busy dealing with an inexperienced pilot having a tough time, plus a lot of other traffic. I continued on course.

When it became clear I was not going to hear from him quickly, I decided to continue a bit longer, as...after all...I was on a discreet code and an ATC handoff.

Technically, I did not have "2 way communication" until well into his airspace. I was about to execute a 180, when he came on, talking as fast as he could and cleared me, with an immediate rapid descent request to 2000'.

As I exited the airspace, he thanked me for the quick response. I don't feel the need for an ASRA, but wondering if I did the right thing.

So...if you were handed off too late to enter Class C with two way communications and the controller was too busy to talk to you, would you turn around immediately, or would you, as I did, continue a bit longer after requesting transition and THEN turn around as the airport got closer?
 
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VWGhiaBob said:
So here's a situation where I didn't know what to do. Hopefully I did the right thing.

I was on flight following with ATC from Big Bear to Whiteman. ATC handed me off to Burbank just as I crossed into their airspace. I requested transition, but the controller was extremely busy dealing with an inexperienced pilot having a tough time, plus a lot of other traffic. I continued on course.

When it became clear I was not going to hear from him quickly, I decided to continue a bit longer, as...after all...I was on a discreet code and an ATC handoff.

Technically, I did not have "2 way communication" until well into his airspace. I was about to execute a 180, when he came on, talking as fast as he could and cleared me, with an immediate rapid descent request to 2000'.

As I exited the airspace, he thanked me for the quick response. I don't feel the need for an ASRA, but wondering if I did the right thing.

So...if you were handed off too late to enter Class C with two way communications and the controller was too busy to talk to you, would you turn around immediately, or would you, as I did, continue a bit longer after requesting transition?
Click to expand...

If I am on FF why would I request transition???
 
VWGhiaBob, as I understand it, if approach refers to your aircraft by it's tail number and you get a code, you are cleared into Charlie. The fact they said your tail number = two way communications.

You'll usually get "Aircraft calling, remain clear of class charlie airspace" if you are not. I think you are fine, but I welcome the opinions of other more experienced folks :)
 
Personally, in SoCal I wouldn't have entered the C until I heard 'spamcan xxxxx....'.

991 times out of a 1000 it's no problem, but you don't want to be that 992nd guy. 'Spamcan xxxxx, I show you x miles northeast at yyyy altitude, I have a number for you to copy down. '
 
If they acknowledge you by tail number that IS 2 way communication but I agree why would you worry about a transition if you are on FF ? They know you are there but I would still be extra alert anyway..
 
If it's a normal handoff delay, I wouldn't worry about it. If it was an extended delay and I didn't hear the tail number, I'd orbit until 2-way comms were established.
 
You were in ATC control and handed off to a too busy controller? OK, understandable. It happens. Maintain Altitude and heading and get in there.

As far as a clearance goes, you dont need a clearance for Charlie. As long as you didn't hear "remain clear" and you attempted to create 2 way communications, and were under an ATC hand-off, just keep calling them till they answer. What are you supposed to do, pull over to the side and wait for them?

If on an IFR clearance, that's exactly what would be expected. I dont see why FF would be any different.
 
You say you were "handed ... off to Burbank". Does that mean you were told to contact them or that you had contact with Burbank? In the former, I would not enter the Charlie until Approach said my tail number.
 
My understanding of comms in class C is formed from the AIM, which as we all know is not regulatory.

Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements: Two-way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in Class C airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the Class C airspace ATC facility on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, radar beacon code, destination, and request Class C service. Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to preclude entering Class C airspace before two-way radio communications are established.
 
Regardless of regulations, the common sense here is that you were doing what you were supposed to. You had a code so ATC knew who you were and could have contacted you immediately if they had a problem. You checked in as soon as possible, and I'd argue you had already established two-way comms as you are not expected to deal with each airspace individually while on FF.

I'd also argue that breaking off from your established heading or altitude while you try to check-in would be more disruptive and dangerous that anything -- you were being predictable, which controllers like.

You're not in trouble here, so the ASRS report would be for safety purposes (the intended purpose). Did anything happen that needs to be rectified for safety-of-flight in the future? I doubt it, unless you felt that your immediate descent was dangerous.
 
I think where the confusion here is that you don't need to request transition through Class D or C while on flight following by virtue of already having had established two way contact. You don't need do hear, nor does the controller need to say "cleared through Class C."
 
dukeblue219 said:
I'd argue you had already established two-way comms as you are not expected to deal with each airspace individually while on FF.
Click to expand...

You're expected to establish two-way communication with a facility that's responsible for the Class C or D airspace you're about to enter. Flight following does not relieve you of that responsibility. So as others here have said, if your handoff is acknowledged by the Class C controller, you're ok. Otherwise not.

It's true though that you don't necessarily have to talk to someone at the airport whose airspace you're transiting. Many Class D airports, for instance, have agreements to allow nearby Class B or C approach controllers coordinate transits of the Class D (as noted on the charts). But that's not the situation we're discussing in this thread.
 
Sac Arrow said:
You don't need do hear, nor does the controller need to say "cleared through Class C."
Click to expand...

I don't think you'll ever hear that.

91.130(c)(1) is your reference on the pilot side. I don't have the reference book for controllers handy.
 
You had 2 way communication when you initiated flight following. My understanding is you must be able to maintain that radio communication( in the sense that your radio is working and able to receive and transmit messages.) If ATC needed to talk to you, they could have.

If for some reason you transmitted messages and were not getting a response then that's an issue because your radio might be broken. As you described though that was not an issue since the first facility heard you no problem and eventually the controlling facility responded.

This regulation I believe is there to prevent planes from transiting busy airspace without talking to ATC. You did exactly what you needed to do here so I would not worry.
 
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acrophile said:
You're expected to establish two-way communication with a facility that's responsible for the Class C or D airspace you're about to enter. Flight following does not relieve you of that responsibility. So as others here have said, if your handoff is acknowledged by the Class C controller, you're ok. Otherwise not.

It's true though that you don't necessarily have to talk to someone at the airport whose airspace you're transiting. Many Class D airports, for instance, have agreements to allow nearby Class B or C approach controllers coordinate transits of the Class D (as noted on the charts). But that's not the situation we're discussing in this thread.
Click to expand...

I agree with you but apparently many here do not and would continue into the Charlie figuring ff is just as good as an IFR clearance. It is not, IMO.
 
I've had plenty of occasions where I'm on FF, handed off to NY approach, and the freq is so busy you literally can't get a word in edgewise. Typically after a few exchanges I'll hear my callsign and a vector / altitude assignment (and either a clearance into the Bravo or a "remain clear / maintain VFR" instruction). On FF, they know you're there, so "going with the flow", so to speak, is probably the wisest move.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
So here's a situation where I didn't know what to do. Hopefully I did the right thing.

I was on flight following with ATC from Big Bear to Whiteman. ATC handed me off to Burbank just as I crossed into their airspace. I requested transition, but the controller was extremely busy dealing with an inexperienced pilot having a tough time, plus a lot of other traffic. I continued on course.

When it became clear I was not going to hear from him quickly, I decided to continue a bit longer, as...after all...I was on a discreet code and an ATC handoff.

Technically, I did not have "2 way communication" until well into his airspace. I was about to execute a 180, when he came on, talking as fast as he could and cleared me, with an immediate rapid descent request to 2000'.

As I exited the airspace, he thanked me for the quick response. I don't feel the need for an ASRA, but wondering if I did the right thing.

So...if you were handed off too late to enter Class C with two way communications and the controller was too busy to talk to you, would you turn around immediately, or would you, as I did, continue a bit longer after requesting transition and THEN turn around as the airport got closer?
Click to expand...

You busted the airspace if you did not have the 2-way and were inside a layer. Best to circle outside the airspace until you get the two-way established.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
So here's a situation where I didn't know what to do. Hopefully I did the right thing.

I was on flight following with ATC from Big Bear to Whiteman. ATC handed me off to Burbank just as I crossed into their airspace. I requested transition, but the controller was extremely busy dealing with an inexperienced pilot having a tough time, plus a lot of other traffic. I continued on course.

When it became clear I was not going to hear from him quickly, I decided to continue a bit longer, as...after all...I was on a discreet code and an ATC handoff.

Technically, I did not have "2 way communication" until well into his airspace. I was about to execute a 180, when he came on, talking as fast as he could and cleared me, with an immediate rapid descent request to 2000'.

As I exited the airspace, he thanked me for the quick response. I don't feel the need for an ASRA, but wondering if I did the right thing.

So...if you were handed off too late to enter Class C with two way communications and the controller was too busy to talk to you, would you turn around immediately, or would you, as I did, continue a bit longer after requesting transition and THEN turn around as the airport got closer?
Click to expand...

Just for context, was this your approximate route? And, if so, roughly where you (location and altitude) when SoCal transferred you to Burbank tower?

WHP via Burbank.jpg
 
If this was a delayed handoff, it might be a bit gray. If you heard your tail number, you're good. No clearance required or given for Class C. If you ask for it, you'll get told just that.

There is a buffer built into a handoff that's longer than you might think. But it's not mentioned in AIM or FAR.

Sometimes Approach controllers F up handoffs, too. Last flight, I got handed off twice to KRHV Class D, when still over the Calaveras Mountains (some 15 miles out, no line-of-sight from there). Big surprise, no contact.
 
I'd like to note that the controller, once he established radio gave the plane an 'immediate' rapid decent to 2000' from his current location.

Maybe I'm the only one that's bothered by this. What it says to me, is that BUR was landing or departing N/S rather than E/W, and he could have been in the way had he continued without establishing 2 way with the ATC facility providing services.

Again, maybe it's just me, but this sure sounds very close to 'copy this number down' situation. I think it was so busy the ATC didn't want to bother with the call, and he dodged a bullet, almost literally.
 
docmirror said:
I'd like to note that the controller, once he established radio gave the plane an 'immediate' rapid decent to 2000' from his current location.

Maybe I'm the only one that's bothered by this. What it says to me, is that BUR was landing or departing N/S rather than E/W, and he could have been in the way had he continued without establishing 2 way with the ATC facility providing services.

Again, maybe it's just me, but this sure sounds very close to 'copy this number down' situation. I think it was so busy the ATC didn't want to bother with the call, and he dodged a bullet, almost literally.
Click to expand...

The OP was fine. The controller got a little bit behind; that's how I read the situation.
 
Well, having heard 'immediate' recently from a controller to a plane which subsequently collided with a C150 causing death and destruction, It's been my humble experience that they don't use that word cavalierly. If he said 'immediate and rapid', that makes it even more explicit.

But - whatev rationalizations a guy wants to use, I guess it's all good, no paint was swapped.
 
docmirror said:
My understanding of comms in class C is formed from the AIM, which as we all know is not regulatory.

Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements: Two-way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in Class C airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the Class C airspace ATC facility on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, radar beacon code, destination, and request Class C service. Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to preclude entering Class C airspace before two-way radio communications are established.
Click to expand...

This is my take on it also. I would be very wary of entering Class C without hearing my tail number first from the ATC in control of said airspace.
 
docmirror said:
I'd like to note that the controller, once he established radio gave the plane an 'immediate' rapid decent to 2000' from his current location.

Maybe I'm the only one that's bothered by this. What it says to me, is that BUR was landing or departing N/S rather than E/W, and he could have been in the way had he continued without establishing 2 way with the ATC facility providing services.

Again, maybe it's just me, but this sure sounds very close to 'copy this number down' situation. I think it was so busy the ATC didn't want to bother with the call, and he dodged a bullet, almost literally.
Click to expand...

That sounds right to me. Once "handed off" to Burbank, the OP was obligated to establish two-way comms with Burbank approach BEFORE entering the Class C airspace. Do a 180 and circle until comms are established. Since he wasn't given a number to call, it seems to have all worked out well. Could be that the controller realized he had goofed up and didn't want to make an issue of it.

But next time, be sure someone says "come in" before you walk in the door. :D

JMHO
 
The saddest part to me, having flown over there plenty, there was just no reason to be in the C anyway. Fly to Mt Wilson, make a slight right turn then left and go down the wash and call Whiteman. Have a nice day.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
.......ATC handed me off to Burbank just as I crossed into their airspace. I requested transition.....

Technically, I did not have "2 way communication"
Click to expand...

By ATC I assume you were with Socal Approach. Burbank I am sure is Burbank Tower. You had 2 way communication and had not been told to remain clear of Class C. You were completely legal the entire time.

You seem to be looking at this as if the Tower at the airport at the center of the Class C "owns" the Class C. From L35 to WHP I'm going to guess you were probably on about your third Socal Approach frequency by the time they told to you to contact Burbank Tower. Or maybe you called them up out by the Rose Bowl, established 2 way with Socal Approach and weren't told to remain clear. Either way you're good to go into the C. You could start getting FF in Florida and as long as you remained in continuous ATC contact getting handed of from controller to controller the entire way, and they never tell you to remain clear of a Class C, you're ok to go in.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
So here's a situation where I didn't know what to do. Hopefully I did the right thing.

I was on flight following with ATC from Big Bear to Whiteman. ATC handed me off to Burbank just as I crossed into their airspace. I requested transition, but the controller was extremely busy dealing with an inexperienced pilot having a tough time, plus a lot of other traffic. I continued on course.

When it became clear I was not going to hear from him quickly, I decided to continue a bit longer, as...after all...I was on a discreet code and an ATC handoff.

Technically, I did not have "2 way communication" until well into his airspace. I was about to execute a 180, when he came on, talking as fast as he could and cleared me, with an immediate rapid descent request to 2000'.

As I exited the airspace, he thanked me for the quick response. I don't feel the need for an ASRA, but wondering if I did the right thing.

So...if you were handed off too late to enter Class C with two way communications and the controller was too busy to talk to you, would you turn around immediately, or would you, as I did, continue a bit longer after requesting transition and THEN turn around as the airport got closer?
Click to expand...

From the controller's handbook:

2−1−16. SURFACE AREAS
a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach
control tower on an individual aircraft basis before
issuing a clearance which would require flight within
a surface area for which the tower has responsibility
unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.
REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 4−3−1, Letters of Agreement.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport
in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term− Surface Area.
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower
for transit authorization when you are providing radar
traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter
another facility’s airspace.
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.
c. Transfer communications to the appropriate
facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface
area for which the tower has responsibility.

Bob Gardner
 
Generally, Tower controls the lowest altitudes in the Class C surface area, and Approach controls the rest. You can estimate this from the instrument approaches; you expect a handoff to Tower near the final approach fix for a straight-in approach. For instance, the ILS RWY 8 approach has an FAF at 2755 feet, 6 miles out. So, if I had to guess, BUR Tower has 3000 and below.

Missing a handoff busts 14 CFR 91.129(c)(1), because it also requires you to maintain communications. However, there is a buffer.
 
bobmrg said:
From the controller's handbook:

***

The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.

***

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Boom. Drops mic. Walks off. :wink2:
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Boom. Drops mic. Walks off. :wink2:
Click to expand...

Also from the Controller's Handbook

d. VFR aircraft approaching Class B, Class C, Class D, or TRSA airspace which is under the control jurisdiction of another air traffic control facility should either be provided with a radar handoff or be advised that radar service is terminated, given their position in relation to the Class B, Class C, Class D, or TRSA airspace, and the ATC frequency, if known, for the airspace to be entered. These actions should be accomplished in sufficient time for the pilot to obtain the required ATC approval prior to entering the airspace involved, or to avoid the airspace.

Boom. Walks back in. Picks up mic. :wink2:
 
Caramon13 said:
VWGhiaBob, as I understand it, if approach refers to your aircraft by it's tail number and you get a code, you are cleared into Charlie. The fact they said your tail number = two way communications.
Click to expand...
Correct, you don't need a code or radar contact, just two-way comms.
 
alfadog said:
Also from the Controller's Handbook

d. VFR aircraft approaching Class B, Class C, Class D, or TRSA airspace which is under the control jurisdiction of another air traffic control facility should either be provided with a radar handoff or be advised that radar service is terminated, given their position in relation to the Class B, Class C, Class D, or TRSA airspace, and the ATC frequency, if known, for the airspace to be entered. These actions should be accomplished in sufficient time for the pilot to obtain the required ATC approval prior to entering the airspace involved, or to avoid the airspace.

Boom. Walks back in. Picks up mic. :wink2:
Click to expand...

Thanks! Color me confused since your quotes section applies to both a termination of radar services or a mere handoff.

I now await clarification between two seemingly cintradictory assertions.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Thanks! Color me confused since your quotes section applies to both a termination of radar services or a mere handoff.

I now await clarification between two seemingly cintradictory assertions.
Click to expand...

You are right, it is not totally clear, is it. That said, I would not enter Charlie without contacting the Charlie controller.
 
warthog1984 said:
If it's a normal handoff delay, I wouldn't worry about it.
Click to expand...

This. First controller handed you off late(but he did hand you off, so 2nd controller knew where you were and that you were coming), 2nd guy was busy. I would have kept on trucking and wouldn't lose sleep over it. Now if I was squawking 1200 and trying to reach the class C controller for initial contact, I would have remained outside the class C until I had good 2-way.
 
I don't think you need to worry. If you were 1200 trying to come in and weren't getting a response and kept on trucking in then yes that's a clear bust, but in the situation you describe the controller should have been aware of you and your position given that that exchange should have taken place (either verbally over the headset or electronically via the radar terminal) before the previous controller handed you off.

Strictly speaking FAA lawyers might disagree with the above. While the controller may have handed you off behind the scenes, you didn't have "two-way communication" with the controller. When asked to clarify a similar scenario (e.g., pilot approaching a Class C and not handed off the the Class C controller before entering the airspace) the FAA says the pilot could still be busted and that ATC screwing up isn't an excuse:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...6uwsfj_ECuVEzZ7F37CIzA&bvm=bv.103073922,d.aWw

However, I don't think there's much risk of the above happening... especially since the controller you were handed off to is likely the one that would have to initiate the complaint. Next time though, just poke the controller for a handoff if you're getting close. Better safe than sorry.
 
The overlying approach "owns" the Class C airspace, so you are already talking to the "controlling ATC authority" of the Class C if you're on flight following just outside of the airspace. You may or may not get a handoff to another approach sector, or the tower.
 
From the controller's handbook:
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.

Not sure I want to provide a defense of busting airspace based on a blurb out of the controller's handbook.

Not expected =/= Not required

 
woodchucker said:
From the controller's handbook:
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.

Not sure I want to provide a defense of busting airspace based on a blurb out of the controller's handbook.

Not expected =/= Not required
Click to expand...

Indeed FAR is what pilots needs to be concerned with. Controller handbook is interesting, but that's not what the PIC is being held to account for.

Generally speaking, having an attitude of "I'm OK because ATC screwed up and should have..." is a bad attitude to have for a PIC.
 
If it was a radar hand off then you were never out of contact. If he needed to talk to you he would have talked to you. He was apparently busy with other traffic.
 
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