DF Steers?

[Jeanie]

So, does ATC still provide DF steers? There was a time when they had to do one every once in awhile to stay current and so would be happy to help out w/ practice ones. Are those no more? Seems I remember that....

What would happen now in an instance where a pilot would need that kind of help?

 

[Steve]

My recollection is ATC did/does not give DF steers. In the past FSS had the equipment to provide DF steers and would do it on request. I don't know if they still do or not.

ATC still has the ability to track primary targets in many locations if you lost everything but one comm.

 

[Jeanie]

Oh right. That was it, it's been awhile since I've studied all that.....

 

[poadeleted20]

I believe they are all gone as part of the FSS consolidation, and that service is no longer mentioned in the AIM.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

No more DF steers nor DF approaches in the lower 48 but they are both alive and doing very well in Alaska. If you ever have the opportunity to make a visit give either one a try.

 

[bobmrg]

Timely question. ASA's Jackie Spanitz has just returned from OKC, where she and other representatives of the training industry met with the test writers. The word she got was that although VHF/DF is pretty much an Alaska-only thing, questions on its use will remain in the written exams.

Transcribed Weather Broadcasts, or TWEBs, are also Alaska-only, but they have dropped TWEB questions from the writtens. Go figure.

Bob Gardner

 

[Jeanie]

Ok. So is there any service similar to a DF steer that a person could get either from FSS or ATC?

 

[poadeleted20]

Ok. So is there any service similar to a DF steer that a person could get either from FSS or ATC?

Nothing I know of in the Lower 48. Pretty much the only way they can find you is by radar, either primary or secondary.

 

[Jeanie]

So, if you lose your gyros while in IMC and having declared an emergency ATC gives you instructions like : "turn left, stop"

that sort of thing is different? Would that kind of situation occur w/ a loss of gyros? I'm vaguely remembering something like this but can't quite pull up the scenario.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, if you lose your gyros while in IMC and having declared an emergency ATC gives you instructions like : "turn left, stop" that sort of thing is different?

Very different. What you are describing are "no gyro vectors," not a DF steer. With a DF steer, the person on the ground is simply looking at a strobe line showing your bearing from his/her station -- no range information, just bearing. They'll tell you to fly the reciprocal of that initially, and then correct for drift by giving you additional headings. A "no gyro vector" is just a version of partial panel timed turns in which a controller is watching your position and movement on radar, and instead of just giving you the new heading, computes the time of turn from the last assigned heading at 3 deg/sec, and then times the turn for you, saving you the math and the clock-watching so you can focus on a good, level, standard rate turn.

Would that kind of situation occur w/ a loss of gyros? I'm vaguely remembering something like this but can't quite pull up the scenario.

The DF steer was for being lost and out of radar coverage but in radio contact with a DF-equipped facility so they know your bearing from there, but not your range. The no-gyro vector is for when they know where you are (i.e., have you on radar) and are vectoring you, but you're have lost your gyro heading indicator, and are having trouble handling the timed turns on your own.

 

[Jeanie]

Great, Thanks Ron for clearing it up for me

 

[bigred177]

Very different. What you are describing are "no gyro vectors," not a DF steer. With a DF steer, the person on the ground is simply looking at a strobe line showing your bearing from his/her station -- no range information, just bearing. They'll tell you to fly the reciprocal of that initially, and then correct for drift by giving you additional headings. A "no gyro vector" is just a version of partial panel timed turns in which a controller is watching your position and movement on radar, and instead of just giving you the new heading, computes the time of turn from the last assigned heading at 3 deg/sec, and then times the turn for you, saving you the math and the clock-watching so you can focus on a good, level, standard rate turn.

The DF steer was for being lost and out of radar coverage but in radio contact with a DF-equipped facility so they know your bearing from there, but not your range. The no-gyro vector is for when they know where you are (i.e., have you on radar) and are vectoring you, but you're have lost your gyro heading indicator, and are having trouble handling the timed turns on your own.

I was flying back into Lubbock from Amarillo with my instructor around 2am. When we called up approach they asked us if we wanted to do a no gyros approach because they were bored out of their mind up there. It was quite fun, in VMC with an instructor. Wouldn't want to do that for real.

I was amazed at how accurate they were in getting me to the runway. When I pulled the hood off we were right on the centerline right on glideslope.

 

[poadeleted20]

I was flying back into Lubbock from Amarillo with my instructor around 2am. When we called up approach they asked us if we wanted to do a no gyros approach because they were bored out of their mind up there.

It may have been a training requirement, not just boredom. Controllers at facilities where radar approaches are operational have to do some number of radar approaches (including some number of no-gyro approaches) every so often in order to maintain their currency.

 

[bigred177]

That's what we figgered too, but since the last plane he handled was us leaving to go to Amarillo many many hours earlier, we thought boredom sounded better .

 

[sba55]

but you're have lost your gyro heading indicator, and are having trouble handling the timed turns on your own.

That trouble could be caused by loosing your HSI at low altitude on an IMC approach right next to a mountain!

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Whoa whoa whoa, you DFS killers! I just got an email from AOPA ePilot about the importance of knowing about and using DFS's:

Question: Yesterday my instructor mentioned something about a DF steer. Can you explain to me what that is?

Answer: DF stands for direction finder and is a good resource to use if you become lost. Here’s how it works. Once you realize you are lost, contact the nearest flight service station, apprise them of the situation, and ask if they have the capability to provide a DF steer.

There are still 88 in service around the nation. And the FAA has more than 100 new DF steering computers in its warehouse, awaiting installation"

I could find no date to this article but the email arrived today.

 

[Jeanie]

Weeeeell, I'll be........ will wonders never cease.

 

[BillTIZ]

It may have been a training requirement, not just boredom. Controllers at facilities where radar approaches are operational have to do some number of radar approaches (including some number of no-gyro approaches) every so often in order to maintain their currency.

We used to go up to CON (Concord NH) to get DF work with CON FSS and over to PSM (Pease AFB) for PAR No Gyro Approaches. The FSS and the Military controllers had to do a certain number of approaches every quarter to maintain qualification.