Descent during holding

elpacofelix

elpacofelix

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elpacofelix
Hello to all! I'm new here. I would like to ask something referred to a descent depicted on a holding pattern.
For example, i'm cleared for this approach and i have to make a teardrop or parallel entry to get on the holding. My question is, can i start the descent during the entry procedure o i have to wait to be on the holding to do that??
Thanks in advance!!!
 

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This is a non-US procedure, and so anyone on here who comments based on their knowledge of US regulations is guessing at best.

Like me. My knowledge is pretty limited to US rules. A holding pattern with different inbound and outbound altitudes like this one would not be allowed in the US. So I have no idea on the entry. It does look like once you're established outbound on th R-033 you can descend to 9450, then once inbound on the 213 you can descend to 9000. But for the entry? US-limited me has no idea. I would GUESS that you'd have to maintain FL100 during the entry then descend once you're established in the hold for one lap, but again nothing like this is published in US procedures.

You'd have to check with local (Argentina, I think?) regulations.
 
RussR said:
A holding pattern with different inbound and outbound altitudes like this one would not be allowed in the US
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Interesting. I never noticed that. I know there are procedure turns with different outbound and inbound legs so I figured why not in hold in lieu?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Interesting. I never noticed that. I know there are procedure turns with different outbound and inbound legs so I figured why not in hold in lieu?
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The ILS and NDB approaches to KHUT (Hutchinson, KS) have HILPTs with different outbound and inbound altitudes.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The ILS and NDB approaches to KHUT (Hutchinson, KS) have HILPTs with different outbound and inbound altitudes.
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Dang it, I forgot about those. Those are a special case (the ILS at TWF is another example) which is allowed only on ILS/VOR/NDB procedures that have a HILPT at the FAF (which is not allowed for RNAV), and the FAF altitude has to be within I think 300 feet of the holding pattern altitude. [Edit - confirmed, it's 300 feet.]

Neither of those is the case in the OP's Argentina airport, so I'm still narrowly correct in that the situation there would not be permitted by US TERPS, but my broader statement that it never happens is quite demonstrably incorrect.
 
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RussR said:
If you're talking about the D4.0 north of the airport, that appears to be the missed approach track. Although I do wish the OP had posted the entire chart.
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I can’t imagine that would be anything other than the missed track. As if it was some kind of PT in lieu of HILPT. @aterpster seems to have access to a lot of foreign Charts. Do you have this one Wally?
 
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You can start the descent once you cross the holding fix and descend during the entry once cleared to descend by ATC and/or cleared for the approach. A correctly flown entry will keep you in the protected airspace of the hold.

Reference PANS-OPS (Doc 8168-OPS/611) Vol 1 (Flight Procedures) Part IV - Chapter 2 Obstacle Clearance

Descent while entering a hold is a common thing to do even in the US. In the US at least, you'd want to get clearance from ATC before using the hold to align with the approach procedure and/or lose altitude.

In foreign states I don't know if that's a requirement, but it couldn't hurt to ask, especially in the case of using the hold solely for altitude loss. If you're not aligned within 30 degrees of the outbound course for the course reversal when you arrive at the IAF/VOR (outside of the 003 - 063 radials in this case), they expect you to use the hold for alignment in most cases. I used to do these kinds of approaches all the time in Mexico and we would occasionally perform a hold entry while descending to accommodate alignment with the outbound leg from the IAF and/or a descent from the enroute MEA to an altitude that would allow us to descend adequately to the FAF altitude. In those cases, in Mexico, I don't recall a specific clearance being required to use the hold, but it was 15-20 years ago that I was doing that regularly.

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RussR said:
If you're talking about the D4.0 north of the airport, that appears to be the missed approach track. Although I do wish the OP had posted the entire chart.
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My bad. The D9.5 in bound.
 
Clip4 said:
My bad. The D9.5 in bound.
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?? The D9.5 isn't even on the holding pattern, it's in the teardrop-style procedure turn. And it's not indicating a point to start a descent anyway, it's where you should roll out on final, but stay at 6150 until the FAF.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have to ask. The HILO is intended for course reversal but... What happens if instructed to remain in the hold?
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Maintain the altitude you were told to maintain? If I was already in the hold and descending, and they changed their mind and said stay in holding, or do one more turn in holding, and didn’t give me an altitude, I’d go back up to FL 100.
 
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RussR said:
?? The D9.5 isn't even on the holding pattern, it's in the teardrop-style procedure turn. And it's not indicating a point to start a descent anyway, it's where you should roll out on final, but stay at 6150 until the FAF.
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Are there any Approaches in the US like this? Where a HILPT is there to align you to start a PT. There are Arrival Holds used for when there is more than a 90 degree angle from the airway you arrive at an IAF on. Those are just on RNAV Approaches though I think.
 
Narwhal said:
You can start the descent once you cross the holding fix and descend during the entry once cleared to descend by ATC and/or cleared for the approach. A correctly flown entry will keep you in the protected airspace of the hold.

Reference PANS-OPS (Doc 8168-OPS/611) Vol 1 (Flight Procedures) Part IV - Chapter 2 Obstacle Clearance

Descent while entering a hold is a common thing to do even in the US. In the US at least, you'd want to get clearance from ATC before using the hold to align with the approach procedure and/or lose altitude.
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Hello Narwhal!! Perfect!! Thanks a lot for the clarification!! And thanks to all again. In South America we have many procedures like these. And many others with a little confusing parts, but go one at the time jaja
 
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Narwhal said:
You can start the descent once you cross the holding fix and descend during the entry once cleared to descend by ATC and/or cleared for the approach. A correctly flown entry will keep you in the protected airspace of the hold.

Reference PANS-OPS (Doc 8168-OPS/611) Vol 1 (Flight Procedures) Part IV - Chapter 2 Obstacle Clearance

Descent while entering a hold is a common thing to do even in the US. In the US at least, you'd want to get clearance from ATC before using the hold to align with the approach procedure and/or lose altitude.

In foreign states I don't know if that's a requirement, but it couldn't hurt to ask, especially in the case of using the hold solely for altitude loss. If you're not aligned within 30 degrees of the outbound course for the course reversal when you arrive at the IAF/VOR (outside of the 003 - 063 radials in this case), they expect you to use the hold for alignment in most cases. I used to do these kinds of approaches all the time in Mexico and we would occasionally perform a hold entry while descending to accommodate alignment with the outbound leg from the IAF and/or a descent from the enroute MEA to an altitude that would allow us to descend adequately to the FAF altitude. In those cases, in Mexico, I don't recall a specific clearance being required to use the hold, but it was 15-20 years ago that I was doing that regularly.

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We’ve been referring that as a HILPT. It really isn’t. The PT is the Teardrop Procedure to get you aligned on the Localizer inbound. Imagine this Approach without that Holding Pattern for a minute. I remember reading that in some Countries, for an Approach with a PT that starts at a station, like VOR or NDB, you are supposed to maneuver yourself to arrive at the station on no more than a 30 degree angle to the outbound course of the PT. It’s supposed to be done within a certain distance of the station. So I think what is going on with this Approach is that maneuvering yourself, a roll your own so to speak, isn’t a good idea because of the terrain around there. So they put the Hold there.
 
luvflyin said:
Are there any Approaches in the US like this? Where a HILPT is there to align you to start a PT. There are Arrival Holds used for when there is more than a 90 degree angle from the airway you arrive at an IAF on. Those are just on RNAV Approaches though I think.
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There aren't any in the U.S. that I'm aware of, it would be an unusual combination of criteria to allow it, and would probably require a waiver to do so.

An Arrival hold is actually a specific term for a separate beast. The hold you see on RNAV procedures is just a "normal" HILPT. An arrival hold is for ATC use, and you usually see them on STARS, though you do occasionally see them on approaches as well - though most often, those are military IAPs. On FAA charts they are depicted with a thin line, not the thick line for HILPTs nor the thick dashed line for missed approach holds. As an example, there are many at SPS, including two on one RNAV procedure. Notice this has all three types of holds on one chart!

upload_2022-5-18_9-52-19.png
 
RussR said:
There aren't any in the U.S. that I'm aware of, it would be an unusual combination of criteria to allow it, and would probably require a waiver to do so.

An Arrival hold is actually a specific term for a separate beast. The hold you see on RNAV procedures is just a "normal" HILPT. An arrival hold is for ATC use, and you usually see them on STARS, though you do occasionally see them on approaches as well - though most often, those are military IAPs. On FAA charts they are depicted with a thin line, not the thick line for HILPTs nor the thick dashed line for missed approach holds. As an example, there are many at SPS, including two on one RNAV procedure. Notice this has all three types of holds on one chart!

View attachment 106931
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Yeah. You don’t just do them unless ATC authorizes it. As you know lots of these have been showing up in recent years where there is more than a 90 degree cut like I said above. Only purpose the ones on that Approach would serve is if they want to hold you there they can say ‘as published’ instead of the whole on this radial etc speech. Air Force really helps you out if you have to do an ‘entry’

upload_2022-5-18_8-8-33.png
 
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