Dependency on GPS

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mxalix258

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mxalix258
Hi All,

I wanted to bring up a topic that I'm sure has been discussed here before, but wanted to get some of your thoughts. As a new private pilot, and looking back on my training - I depended ALOT on the GPS.

During a flight last night it finally hit me that, if this thing went out I would have NO idea where I am (well I generally idea, but would be severely hampered).

Just wanted to get you all's thoughts on dependency on a GPS, am I reducing the value of the flying I'm doing because I'm not really doing any true navigation? I suspect this is true, but I'm still a little hesitant to venture too far out on a cross country with no GPS (even as a backup) with all the special airspace out here in DC.

Just curious - I hope I don't get tore apart for this post :redface:
 
I think a GPS is a great safety tool for situational awareness. I also carry an iPad and iPhone, both with ForeFlight and a chart. In addition. I flight plan any cross countries and have vectors and some key waypoints. Night flying would certainly require better planning than a CAVU VFR day flight, though. The more you fly in your area, the more you will become familiar with the landmarks, as well.
 
It's just another tool in the toolbox. It has utility, and is a great asset. But if you build your skillset around a single tool you limit the range of your ability. Lindbergh found Paris with a watch, a compass and a chart.

When I first got into the air LORAN was as high tech as it got. (no the approach plates were not chipped on stone) Over the course of my career we went from LORAN to fully integrated GPS based FMSs. But we always trained partial panel in case things went south.
 
Pilotage is fun. There are places where GPS won't do you a lot of good.

Flying up a river canyon is one place. I am thinking the Fraser River between Vancouver and Williams Lake. If you have a lower ceiling, say 1000 ft, you must follow the windings of the river. A GPS will do you exactly zero good there. And, often other rivers intersect the Fraser, so you need to be able to fly the proper canyon. Or not, which can lead to trouble.

If you go out and practice pilotage, you will be a better pilot.
 
I guess I did it backwards from you. I only VERY rarely even looked at a GPS during my PPL training. After training while building my cross country time, I have kept Foreflight on both IPad and IPhone close at hand and pretty much fly with them BUT...... I keep a marked paper chart at hand and know where I am on that chart at all times. If the FF spits up, I can pick up the chart and know where I am.

About six months or so ago, I was in a little nook/cranny underneath DFW class B when my IPad got messed up. I think I accidentally touched something that made it do something I had not seen.

At the time I was flying a heading toward a waypoint, so I just held the heading and altititude very accurately to the waypoint. About the time I got there I had the IPad going again and went on my Merry way with chart at hand. I could have fired up the IPhone if necessary. Had I not known where I was going and what heading to get there, I might very well have busted the Class Bravo without being cleared.

My main point with this is to impress on you how important it is to be flying a heading to your next waypoint, have chart at hand and ALWAYS know where you are as represented on the chart.
 
I think I need to kick the bad habit of following the magenta line while I'm still a fairly new private pilot. To be honest, the whole flight planning portion becomes very monotonous. I'm not really familiar with any flight planning software besides DUATS (which I just started using a week ago) everything else was done by hand during flight training.

What is the routine you all use to do fairly simple cross country flights (erring on the side of being more prepared than not). Do you just grab a duats flight plan, and keep tabs of where you are on a sectional as you go? or do you break it out into legs and calculate the time for each leg etc.

Thanks!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...Ae66gdAC&ved=0CFYQvwUoAQ&q=monotonous&spell=1http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...Ae66gdAC&ved=0CFYQvwUoAQ&q=monotonous&spell=1
 
I'm a veteran looking out the window guy, even when I'm not the pilot. For a while I was going back and forth on the airlines between IAD and SJC regularly and it got to the point I could tell where we were in the flight by looking out the window. Still for IFR it's hard to beat a good moving map.

My wife learned to fly in an ex-Embry Riddle 172 which had of all things an VOR-based RNAV system. While we had a portable GPS, she was of course, banned from carrying it by her old school instructor. I had shown her how to take the Flight Guide (which had RNAV coordinates of the airports listed) and program that into the RNAV. She did that in front of him one day and she was told NO RNAV either.
 
I use the AOPA flight planner and also ForeFlight. I print out the airport information (AOPA Airports) for any airport I might land at. That stuff is available on ForeFlight, but I like printouts, as well, so I can write on them.
 
I just bust out the sectional and the plotter and see what waypoints I can come up with. I knew a guy in my ground school that was there because he busted P-40 by just following the magenta line on the GPS.

I finished my solo XCs this weekend and spent most of the time looking out the window and comparing it with the chart and my time to see where I was. Rather fun, really! I did use the GPS, though, but that's only to help out. So, for instance, I'd hit the direct button and type in my destination; but, I didn't just sit and follow the magenta line. It just acts as a backup so in case I can't quite see the airport in front of me or some other dumb excuse, I can glance at the GPS. Plus, it helps me give my estimated distance and position from an airport when calling traffic/tower.
 
My flight planning is with Foreflight. I key in the route, i.e., F00 KGLE and make sure I have wifi, which is available at even the most remote terminals, so that it has the most recent weather. FF then takes into account the weather and gives you corrected headings, times, fuel burn, etc., etc.,

I did all this on planning sheets before my private checkride and still keep blank sheets available and know how to use them.

Even Foreflight on IPhone is worthwhile because you give it a route and it gives you most everything you need to know for the flight. It then also allows you to follow the blue airplane in flight. AFAIAC, Foreflight is the best $75 a year that I spend. I still keep a paper chart, but since FF always has updated charts, I don't worry as much about my paper going out of date.

You can go to Foreflight.com and get a demo. If you have an IPhone or an IPad, you can download Foreflight and use it for a month free before deciding to pay for the subscription.

BTW, I don't work for Foreflight.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My flight planning is with Foreflight. I key in the route, i.e., F00 KGLE and make sure I have wifi, which is available at even the most remote terminals, so that it has the most recent weather. FF then takes into account the weather and gives you corrected headings, times, fuel burn, etc., etc.,

I did all this on planning sheets before my private checkride and still keep blank sheets available and know how to use them.

Even Foreflight on IPhone is worthwhile because you give it a route and it gives you most everything you need to know for the flight. It then also allows you to follow the blue airplane in flight. AFAIAC, Foreflight is the best $75 a year that I spend. I still keep a paper chart, but since FF always has updated charts, I don't worry as much about my paper going out of date.

You can go to Foreflight.com and get a demo. If you have an IPhone or an IPad, you can download Foreflight and use it for a month free before deciding to pay for the subscription.

BTW, I don't work for Foreflight.
Click to expand...

I was in my trial period with FF and it saved me from busting the DC FRZ after I had an unplanned diversion to KBWI due to T-Storms. I bought it.
 
My CFI made me rely entirely on pilotage and dead reckoning for the dual X-C. Same for getting back from the practice area. Now that I have my ticket, I use the DUATS flight planning tool before the flight and plot my route on my sectional.

During the flight I use the GPS, and back it up with VOR's if there's one at my destination or departure point. I also try to keep track of where I am at all times with the sectional and pilotage. I often fly to islands which are ridiculously easy to navigate to with pilotage.

One reason I always get flight following is that if my GPS glitched out on me (which it did once but I knew where I was), and I got lost, I could always ask ATC for radar vectors.
 
mxalix258 said:
Hi All,

I wanted to bring up a topic that I'm sure has been discussed here before, but wanted to get some of your thoughts. As a new private pilot, and looking back on my training - I depended ALOT on the GPS.

During a flight last night it finally hit me that, if this thing went out I would have NO idea where I am (well I generally idea, but would be severely hampered).

Just wanted to get you all's thoughts on dependency on a GPS, am I reducing the value of the flying I'm doing because I'm not really doing any true navigation? I suspect this is true, but I'm still a little hesitant to venture too far out on a cross country with no GPS (even as a backup) with all the special airspace out here in DC.

Just curious - I hope I don't get tore apart for this post :redface:
Click to expand...

GPS is a wonderful tool for navigation. Use it as needed but NEVER get dependent on any one type of tool..... :nonod:
 
If you have a VOR receiver, always have it tuned to a nearby VOR....it confirms your pilotage assessment of where you be.

If you have DME or a second VOR, keep it tuned to the second VOR.

Always have a backup and NOT be FDH. (Fat, Dumb &...).
 
In the old days we were dependent on VOR receivers, then dependent on LORAN receivers and now GPS. As with any instrumentation it is good to have a backup plan for instrument losses. GPS is no different. I love flying with WingX on my iPad but I do have a NetBook with 'Mountain Scope' for backup plus I keep an airport directory and VFR sectionals in my glovebox if I have to resort to VOR's. So far, in the past year and a half the iPad has proven to be very reliable with no problems encountered. Enjoy your GPS but do have a backup plan if it were to fail.
 
There's a lot of this about, and it's not a good thing. That's why I don't let my primary trainees use the GPS until they've achieved proficiency in DR/pilotage. Likewise, for instrument trainees, they don't get to use GPS until they can do it with basic VOR. At the end of the day, it's up to us flight instructors to have the professional dedication to see that our trainees can fly safely without all the magic.

For the OP, at this point, what I'd suggest is getting with an instructor of the "old school" for some basic DR/pilotage training until you can get from Airport A to Airport B with nothing for navigation but airspeed, altimeter, mag compass, clock, and sectional.
 
N801BH said:
GPS is a wonderful tool for navigation. Use it as needed but NEVER get dependent on any one type of tool..... :nonod:
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While I agree with your sentiment, things like TFRs with potential for interception by F18s, the huge amount of restricted and prohibited airspace, and the DC SFAR, I think the precision of GPS navigation is becoming a near necessity in some instances. Until they start painting TFR, restricted, and prohibited outlines on the ground in fluorescent orange I'm a bit reluctant to rely on pilotage alone in an unfamiliar area.
 
LORAN went away. NDBs are going away. And with the impending significant reduction in the number of VORs, in the next 10 years or so it seems the only backup to GPS will be pilotage & ded reckoning!
 
gismo said:
While I agree with your sentiment, things like TFRs with potential for interception by F18s, the huge amount of restricted and prohibited airspace, and the DC SFAR, I think the precision of GPS navigation is becoming a near necessity in some instances. Until they start painting TFR, restricted, and prohibited outlines on the ground in fluorescent orange I'm a bit reluctant to rely on pilotage alone in an unfamiliar area.
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I am with ya on this................... To a Point..........

For years and years we old pilots navigated with current sectionals and a call to flight service to check NOTAMS.... Everything else is addressed by that method except the newly created TFR's... They didn't paint restricted or prohibited areas on the ground with fluorescent pamint beck then either,,, but were able to navigate around them without GPS... My point is .. I LOVE GPS.. but when the ***** hits the fan during a major world unrest event you can bet the military will disable GPS for national security reasons and all the pilots who depend on that technology will be utterly lost and banished to keeping their planes in the hangar.:eek::yesnod:..

On second thought.. maybe that ain't such a bad idea.:idea::dunno:
 
N801BH said:
My point is .. I LOVE GPS.. but when the ***** hits the fan during a major world unrest event you can bet the military will disable GPS for national security reasons and all the pilots who depend on that technology will be utterly lost and banished to keeping their planes in the hangar.:eek::yesnod:..

On second thought.. maybe that ain't such a bad idea.:idea::dunno:
Click to expand...
Do you keep a 10 year food supply in you backyard underground bomb shelter?:yikes:
 
gismo said:
While I agree with your sentiment, things like TFRs with potential for interception by F18s, the huge amount of restricted and prohibited airspace, and the DC SFAR, I think the precision of GPS navigation is becoming a near necessity in some instances. Until they start painting TFR, restricted, and prohibited outlines on the ground in fluorescent orange I'm a bit reluctant to rely on pilotage alone in an unfamiliar area.
Click to expand...
Isn't that a tad like in the Jetsons, with the traffic directional sign hovering in the air? :goofy:
 
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mxalix258 said:
Hi All,

I wanted to bring up a topic that I'm sure has been discussed here before, but wanted to get some of your thoughts. As a new private pilot, and looking back on my training - I depended ALOT on the GPS.

During a flight last night it finally hit me that, if this thing went out I would have NO idea where I am (well I generally idea, but would be severely hampered).

Just wanted to get you all's thoughts on dependency on a GPS, am I reducing the value of the flying I'm doing because I'm not really doing any true navigation? I suspect this is true, but I'm still a little hesitant to venture too far out on a cross country with no GPS (even as a backup) with all the special airspace out here in DC.

Just curious - I hope I don't get tore apart for this post :redface:
Click to expand...

I'm very lucky to be flying in an area with many coasts to follow and some beautiful scenery to look at so I love to look outside rather than stare at the magenta line. However, with all the airspace around I love having a GPS on on board to make sure I stay clear of the airspace. If I can follow a coast to an airport or if the airport I am going to is clear of any complicated airspace I'll go flying without a GPS and fly by pilotage. If it's a flight to an airport that's hard to find or in complex airspace, gimmie the GPS- it's not cheating after all!
 
My students never had a GPS, VOR or xpdr during their x-countries, the VOR was a tool they EARNED when they proved to me they knew how to navigate with a chart watch and compass. The GPS they earned when they knew that VOR inside out.

Chit happens, can't count the times I've had electronics take a dump on me... If your aircraft can run without electrical, you should be able to as well
 
John221us said:
Do you keep a 10 year food supply in you backyard underground bomb shelter?:yikes:
Click to expand...

Nope..... Don't need it......:no:

The strong will survive, that's why we are pilots..... We are the LEAD dogs ya know.. :yesnod::D
 
I am new, but here is my philosophy...

I think the question at hand, is not if he has a backup in case it went out, but if using GPS as the only reliable form of navigation is acceptable. (Let's say he had 3-4 GPS systems with him, like I would most of the time).

I think knowing how to use something else is always good, however I find no need for it. Technology moves on, and people adapt.

If I was traveling across the country 150 years ago, it might be nice to know how to catch, break, and ride a fresh horse in case my current transportation failed me, but today that would be a rather worthless skill to have.

If GPS as a service goes down, you have a lot bigger problems then knowing exactly where you are.
 
Mafoo said:
I think the question at hand, is not if he has a backup in case it went out, but if using GPS as the only reliable form of navigation is acceptable.
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If we're speaking in terms of flying VFR, the FAA's position as expressed in the Practical Test Standards is that it is not.
If GPS as a service goes down, you have a lot bigger problems then knowing exactly where you are.
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I've lost GPS service in flight more times than I can count, but because I have the skill and proficiency to navigate by other means, I never had a bigger problem as a result. And that's the point.
 
Ron Levy said:
If we're speaking in terms of flying VFR, the FAA's position as expressed in the Practical Test Standards is that it is not.
I've lost GPS service in flight more times than I can count, but because I have the skill and proficiency to navigate by other means, I never had a bigger problem as a result. And that's the point.
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Yea, and I plan to understand how to use other means. However the odds that in my real life I ever need to rely on them is minimal. I learned a lot about Calculus in school as well, but in real life, I have tools that do the work for me. I am not going to sit down when a pencel and a sheet of paper and calculate the area under a curve.

As far as losing GPS service, that's a good question. If you have an external antenna in a location that can always see the satellites, what are the odds that you will lose signal?

In my military days of using GPS, I never lost it once when I could see the sky. WHat caused you to lose signal?
 
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The 172 I learned in didn't have a GPS added (430W) until long after I had my PP cert. I did a fair amount of my IR training in the club's 182 which does not have GPS. Don't be dependent on a single platform. On my first try for the IR ride I had the 430 set incorrectly for an ILS and it was trying to tell me to turn around. I was already established on the ILS so I was able to ignore the GPS (noted the problem to the DPE) and fly the approach. Got credit for that one. Had I been dependent on the GPS who knows where we would have wound up.

Bottom line, learn all the tools at your disposal.
 
I believe the real issue being discussed here is automation dependency. When a pilot depends on an electronic or mechanical system to successfully complete a flight it is in an indication of a serious deficiency in their knowledge/skill set.

Basic DR and pilotage is a fundamental skill every pilot should posses and maintain regardless of equipment flown or mission.

Generators quit, batteries die and equipment breaks. If you always know where you are and how to get where you are going without external assistance these situations are an inconvenience. If you don't know they can become an emergency.

To the OP. If you are not confident in your navigation skills beyond programming and following a GPS you need to get with an instructor and fix the problem. Remeber, the license in your pocket is a license to learn. Doesn't matter if is says Private or ATP it will always be a license to learn.
 
When I went back to flying after a century or two of not flying, I had no clue what the dingus in the cockpit called a 430 was and the CFI saw no need to enlighten me. After a few hours of basic airwork, dead reckoning, VOR NAV, emergency procedures etc, we had a ground session of the wonders of the 430 and the Magenta line.

I feel very confident I won't get lost or run out of gas since I think I am proficient in all means of nav including the Mark 1 eyeball and watch. A CFI once told me planning on the ground is 80% of flying and it makes the other 20% easy. Pick your own ratios but planning and knowing how to use all the tools is fundamental to safe flying.

BTW, I also have Foreflight on my iPad, iPhone and even iPod Touch but most of the time I look out the windows.

Cheers
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I believe the real issue being discussed here is automation dependency. When a pilot depends on an electronic or mechanical system to successfully complete a flight it is in an indication of a serious deficiency in their knowledge/skill set.
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I am going to play devils advocate here. Stated earlier in this thread:

"My students never had a GPS, VOR or xpdr during their x-countries, the VOR was a tool they EARNED when they proved to me they knew how to navigate with a chart watch and compass. The GPS they earned when they knew that VOR inside out."

Some people would claim a chart is technology, but even if you don't, it's hard to argue that a compase and a watch are not.

Every form of navigation that I think is acceptable, is a form of automation dependency (a watch is such a thing for telling time).

As technology gets better (in every field), the skill sets that people must know to function changes.

I am sure there will be a time when this conversation is happening, where the basic tool someone must know how to use is a GPS, and a poster is getting scolded for not having the basic skills to operate one before they use <insert future tech that trumps GPS here>.
 
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I fly with a GPS on the yolk and a backup in the panel. Should either fail there is a backup unit in the back seat pocket. I also follow every flight on a sectional chart.

Situational awareness is. Don't really matter how you got there.
 
Mafoo said:
Yea, and I plan to understand how to use other means. However the odds that in my real life I ever need to rely on them is minimal.
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After more than 40 years and nearly 10,000 hours of flying, I would have to disagree -- strongly. I'd say the odds the you'll have to rely on other means at some point, and probably very soon, are a lot closer to 100%. Keep flying and you'll see.

As far as losing GPS service, that's a good question. If you have an external antenna in a location that can always see the satellites, what are the odds that you will lose signal?
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My Garmin 530, properly installed and certified with WAAS, loses the signal for a couple of minutes probably once a week. And that experience extends to the many other GPS-equipped planes I fly regularly.

But beyond the issues of signal loss or other GPS failures, the fundamental skills and understanding of basic navigation you learn using DR and pilotage are essential to using GPS or any other electronic nav system effectively.
 
Ron Levy said:
After more than 40 years and nearly 10,000 hours of flying, I would have to disagree -- strongly. I'd say the odds the you'll have to rely on other means at some point, and probably very soon, are a lot closer to 100%. Keep flying and you'll see.
Click to expand...

I will let you know :)


steingar said:
Situational awareness is. Don't really matter how you got there.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
> WHat caused you to lose signal?

- Interference from on-board radios
- Testing/spoofing (NOTAM'd or otherwise)
- Solar flares
- High-power radar nearby
 
I cannot give advice but will say what I've done for my cross country flights.

- I use VOR and DME if available.
- Even if using a VOR/DME, I have specific ground reference points and do the who pilotage/dead reckoning thing, parallel with radio navigation.
- I did memorize the magnetic course, distance and estimated time en-route for every leg before the flight. That really made it easy, it was like having the map chiseled in the back of my head. (if i divert, good luck to me)
- And here comes the cheating part: I did use an iPad with SkyChartsPro. But, I used it only affter i have already made my turns, met my checkpoints, etc. to see what it would look like on the moving map, and to double-check f i didn't screw something up (so it was like a backup).

Here is where a GPS would really help me out: There are some class C or B boundaries for which I could not find clear ground referenes to say precisely where they are. That's where the GPS really made life easier for me.
 
denverpilot said:
Oh really? Do tell.

What would that bigger problem be, sitting in your airplane in IMC?
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Well, he said "As a new private pilot", so I would hope he was not in IMC.

However to answer your question.. the US military would be greatly crippled. most transportation systems would be greatly effected as well.

It would be a world problem that matters far more then "well I know I am kind of here, let's find an airport to land at".
 
Mafoo said:
I am going to play devils advocate here. Stated earlier in this thread:

"My students never had a GPS, VOR or xpdr during their x-countries, the VOR was a tool they EARNED when they proved to me they knew how to navigate with a chart watch and compass. The GPS they earned when they knew that VOR inside out."

Some people would claim a chart is technology, but even if you don't, it's hard to argue that a compase and a watch are not.

Every form of navigation that I think is acceptable, is a form of automation dependency (a watch is such a thing for telling time).

As technology gets better (in every field), the skill sets that people must know to function changes.

I am sure there will be a time when this conversation is happening, where the basic tool someone must know how to use is a GPS, and a poster is getting scolded for not having the basic skills to operate one before they use <insert future tech that trumps GPS here>.
Click to expand...

Will just have to agree to disagree
 
Re: GPS is the best, period!

How.............did I miss this one yesterday????

First off, if an instructor tells you to put the GPS into the back seat, then get a new instructor! That's been a motto of mine for years now. Of course, some "old school" instructors will disagree. And I'm no kid either, as I'm 61.

I've spent many years as a sideline, pouring over accident investigations that involve CFIT (controlled flight into terrain). I have very special reasons for doing so.

I've also used moving map GPS since 1993. I'm on my 6th aviation GPS as of now. Failures, are almost non-existent.

The stupidest mistake, that any new pilot can make, is to get any idea that GPS is a form of cheating, or just not really navigating. That's a bunch of BS, and goes back to the old school philosophy........which is usually old timer instructor related.

Facts are..............if you want constant & up to date information, which truly makes you more informed and aware, the by all means, use a GPS. And a larger moving map model, is much better , than the small screens. Having a backup unit is even better.

Over the years, I've gone through so many stinking disastrous accident reports, that it makes me sick. If a good modern GPS had been present, the odds are, that they wouldn't have happened. I've flown over many accident sites in the mountain west, to verify GPS terrain accuracy. It can make all the difference. And forget.........all that "Children of the Magenta Line" garbage, if you hear it. It was a late 1990's American Airlines presentation that followed on the heals of a AA 757 crash in Columbia South America. At the time, there was only about 14 seconds of terrain warning, before hitting the mountain. With today's handhelds, or the GPS systems included in Cessna 172 trainers.............you get plenty of warning for hundreds of Miles in all directions.

If you want horizontal accuracy within 3'; vertical accuracy that's much better than the airplanes altimeter, once the barometric pressures drift, exact airspace boundaries, more accurate fuel measuring, terrain, obstacle
warnings, and weather that can be seen for hundreds of miles ahead...........then by all means, join the GPS revolution. We've been able to use the devices for 20 years now. They only get better!

I haven't read all the responses on this forum. I have seen plenty of responses on student pilot & simulation forums (where the old timers hang out, to push their agenda), in which the reader is given the idea, that GPS is "cheating".............as if somehow, 60 year old VOR navigation is a true pilot skill, that should always be maintained. That's baloney! VORs only replaced an inferior system of navigation, just as GPS is replacing VORs. And it should. It's much more accurate, allows for more direct travel, and works much better in mountain regions, where VOR is line of sight.

And remember, a decent GPS will pick up eight to twelve satellites at any one time. That's a great backup!

L.Adamson --- the GPS advocate
 
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