Denver airports
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AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Welcome to PoA!!!!
We have a good group of pilots based in the Denver area. Front Range, Boulder, and Centennial. One or more of them will be along shortly to help answer your questions.
We have a good group of pilots based in the Denver area. Front Range, Boulder, and Centennial. One or more of them will be along shortly to help answer your questions.
The more than 40 POA members who live in Colorado, flying everything from LSA to twin Cessnas (twin jet engines....) are somewhat baffled by the question.
Let us know when you're coming in, we'll plan lunch or dinner. You might be able to talk one of us into taking you to Leadville.
Where are you coming from?
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Leadville..... Drag!!!! . I've been there for a mountain bike race. I'm coming from shreveport and I'm just looking for more information to pass along to the wife so she feels better about making the trip. We have some family in Firestone.
G-Man
Cleared for Takeoff
Would, have, and do, as frequently as I can.
Like many, I learned to fly out here. Some differences with the sea level folks:
1. We understand leaning.
2. We only ever experience modest take off performance. (Rental cars are really fast at sea level. I suppose airplanes are, too.)
3. We respect Density Altitude, even if we don't fully understand it.
For Firestone, make life easy and fly into KFNL or KGXY - large, friendly, uncontrolled airports with very long runways. KEIK or KLMO might be closer but have smaller runways.
Now, Mountain Flying actually in the mountains (about 30 miles west of Firestone) is a whole different situation and you should have ample specific mountain training. Not recommended for a new PPL.
But bring your Archer II and cruise along at 8-9000 feet, stay well East of the Rocky Mountains, and it's a great view. Heck, grab one of the many local very skilled CFIs and enjoy the ride while you learn stuff.
Like many, I learned to fly out here. Some differences with the sea level folks:
1. We understand leaning.
2. We only ever experience modest take off performance. (Rental cars are really fast at sea level. I suppose airplanes are, too.)
3. We respect Density Altitude, even if we don't fully understand it.
For Firestone, make life easy and fly into KFNL or KGXY - large, friendly, uncontrolled airports with very long runways. KEIK or KLMO might be closer but have smaller runways.
Now, Mountain Flying actually in the mountains (about 30 miles west of Firestone) is a whole different situation and you should have ample specific mountain training. Not recommended for a new PPL.
But bring your Archer II and cruise along at 8-9000 feet, stay well East of the Rocky Mountains, and it's a great view. Heck, grab one of the many local very skilled CFIs and enjoy the ride while you learn stuff.
Take a look at the Denver sectional, don't be misled by the color. Until you want to go west of the line from Longmont to Pueblo, it's pretty much flat land. High compared to your normal flight altitude but still incredibly benign.
You can always fly in then rent a car if you need to go into the hills. Best of both worlds, since you have the funof flying here, then a leisurely drive with convenient stops to enjoy the scenery.
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It's never wrong to be cautious. Always be cautious.
My home field is at 5k feet, but it's not in CO. Mountain flying is all about density altitude. Make sure you are up on your planes specs in regard to density altitude for takeoff, roll, and landing distances. And make sure you know something about mountain wave winds.
KAPA seems like grand central station, very bus place. All kinds of traffic.
I'd recommend Greeley GXY, a bit closer, a bit less traffic because you're east of the student traffic of the NW Front Range schools (bdu, lmo, fnl, eik, gxy). Start climbing to 8500 as you get into Colorado. Head north around Class B and it takes you right to Greeley. You'll smell the reporting point east of the airport....The E-W runway was recently renumbere but it's very easy, very long at almost 6000 ft, the N-W is 10K long. Altitude is 4700, TPA is 5700.
V1-Vr-V2
Pre-Flight
EIK would be your best bet for Firestone but to be honest, the pattern can be a little unnerving for the uninitiated (I trained there so I was unnerved from the start!). Ha! Right pattern for 15, if you go missed, your crosswind is shortened because of the BJC delta. Landing 33 also has the Delta to contend with on downwind and then there's the rising terrain immediately south of the airport which always makes for a weird sight picture.
LMO on the other hand is a pretty easy airport to get into - just avoid midfield overflights because of the (ever present) skydiving.
FNL's runway is a welcome sight if you're concerned with density altitude and less than 4700' runways like EIK and LMO.
Have a great trip.
LMO on the other hand is a pretty easy airport to get into - just avoid midfield overflights because of the (ever present) skydiving.
FNL's runway is a welcome sight if you're concerned with density altitude and less than 4700' runways like EIK and LMO.
Have a great trip.
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The advantage of Greeley is 2 runways, almost 90deg apart, so wind is less of an issue that the other airports that have single runways. For someone not familiar with the area, & not familiar with density altitude during the warmer weather, it's a better choice.
Centennial (KAPA) is on the south side of Denver, and you want to be on the north side. Trust me, you do not want to park at KAPA and drive to Firestone. Might take almost as long as the flight from LA.
From the wind perspective, Greeley is also a better choice because it is further from the mountains than most of the other front range airports in the vicinity. That means a bit less susceptibility to the vagaries of the winds descending from the mountains, especially for a newbie.
Speaking of which, I think G-Man was the only one to mention leaning. Even out of the mountains, high density altitudes (Greeley is at about 4700' when the air temperature is about 5°C/41°F) make things different for the engine and airfoils, requiring at least practical knowledge of its effects and an understanding of how to compensate. My "scary moments" with transient pilots in Colorado wasn't in the mountains; it was during "normal" takeoffs. (NLA, as an FYI, until 2013, I was one of those 40+ POA members Murphey mentioned)
JohnWF
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John at Salida
I fly an RV-12 out of Salida (KANK) at a field elevation of 7,523 have have done so for over 300 flights in all sorts of density altitude conditions. No problem even with the Rotax 912ULS. Heavily loaded, full tanks, hot afternoon can be dangerous, so watch DA
John
John
l8evator
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l8evator
What everyone else said plus:
Fly the same indicated airspeed in the pattern as you fly down home. Your ground speed on final will seem mighty fast but ignore the urge to slow below your normal indicated airspeed. Same on departure. Your brain will tell you that you should be flying by your visual estimate of speed, but stick with your usual indicated airspeed.
The corollary happens to us when we go to lower elevations. My Luscombe seems to slow to a crawl on final at low elevation airports.
Enjoy your trip and report your findings.
Scott
Fly the same indicated airspeed in the pattern as you fly down home. Your ground speed on final will seem mighty fast but ignore the urge to slow below your normal indicated airspeed. Same on departure. Your brain will tell you that you should be flying by your visual estimate of speed, but stick with your usual indicated airspeed.
The corollary happens to us when we go to lower elevations. My Luscombe seems to slow to a crawl on final at low elevation airports.
Enjoy your trip and report your findings.
Scott
And you're still on our list with the *, you'll never get completely away!!
But leaning is critical. If you fly above 5500 msl in your home area, you may be leaning already. Lycoming recommends leaning in all situations above 5K msl. It's unlikely you'll do the trip in a single day. For your second day, flight altitude will likely be starting at a cruise of 4500 and climbing to 8500. Find a CFI who has flown out west or in the Appalatians and ask what to do. There are some techniques to demonstrate leaning at sea level but you really need someone who u derstands it, not merely read it in a book or FAA notes.
Why is leaning important? To keep the ratio of air & fuel the same. Less dense air, less fuel needed. If you keep the same full rich mixture, you'll clog the spark plugs, waste fuel and not get the power you expect. The first two are expensive. The last one will surprise you when you least expect it.
But at sea level, I really do have 180HP!!.
That's the other issue....reduction of HP due to altitude. See? All that stuff you learned, thinking it was irrelevant, really isn't. Such as how much does HP decrease for every 1000 ft in altitude?
colojo
Line Up and Wait
G-Man
Cleared for Takeoff
I agree - KGXY Greeley-Weld. Low stress.
And the drive from there back to Firestone is easier than KBJC or others. (Like most developing sub/urban sprawl areas, travel is better measured in time than distance.)
Make it a fun trip and come back again...
And the drive from there back to Firestone is easier than KBJC or others. (Like most developing sub/urban sprawl areas, travel is better measured in time than distance.)
Make it a fun trip and come back again...
I learned at BJC (Jeffco back then) in a Cessna 152 (and my instructor was no lightweight, the tower asked me on my first solo if it didn't fly better without the fat guy in the right seat). I then moved to a club at APA (then Arapahoe County) and flew a tomahawk for a while. You certainly do learn density altitude. The Archer's extra 20HP over the Cherokee will help a bit especially when lightly loaded.
You will get a greater appreciation for density altitude, the winds, and terrain learning in the Denver area and you never mistake MSL for AGL
You will get a greater appreciation for density altitude, the winds, and terrain learning in the Denver area and you never mistake MSL for AGL
I learned at BJC (Jeffco back then) in a Cessna 152 (and my instructor was no lightweight, the tower asked me on my first solo if it didn't fly better without the fat guy in the right seat). I then moved to a club at APA (then Arapahoe County) and flew a tomahawk for a while. You certainly do learn density altitude. The Archer's extra 20HP over the Cherokee will help a bit especially when lightly loaded.
You will get a greater appreciation for density altitude, the winds, and terrain learning in the Denver area and you never mistake MSL for AGL
Time for the arguments to being...Ron, I have an older Cherokee with 180 HP. OP has an Archer, which is the Cherokee with the 180 HP and the fancier wing. The only difference I've ever noticed is the Archer is a bit more comfy in the bumps because the wing is 2 ft longer. That and my older Cherokee has a higher service ceiling.
Just ran some numbers - assuming 2 or 2.5 hr legs, you're looking at at least a 10 hour day. I'd suggest a 2 day trip, stop in Oklahoma City or nearby for the night. There are some folks here that have no problems with day-long trips, but I learned very fast that a 5 hour day flying alone is my limit. With a non-pilot along I've done 7 hours (didn't really like it) and with another pilot, we did 10.5 hours with no problems.
The route to Oklahoma can easily be done at 4500 msl. Keep flying at 4500 until the map stops being green and goes yellow, around Gage, OK. Basically, what ever color the map is, add 2000 ft. Gage to Lamar (KLAA) 6500 then up to 8500 and head to Limon (KLIC). This will keep you out of Denver's Class B (unless you really want to go there) and just follow around Class B (watch out for the 2000 ft tower almost due east of DIA!!! Tower has lights, the guy wires DON'T!) and this takes you right into Greeley. Or from Limon, head north to Fort Morgan (KFMM) then west to Greeley.
Once you're past the ridge at Limon, you can descend to 6500 if you'd like, but it's easier to stay at 8500 until past Fort Morgan and guarantees you'll be higher than the tower.
If you're using any of the tablet software or have any GPS, the tower will probably be marked as an obstruction. It's on the paper sectionals. Please don't run into it.
The route to Oklahoma can easily be done at 4500 msl. Keep flying at 4500 until the map stops being green and goes yellow, around Gage, OK. Basically, what ever color the map is, add 2000 ft. Gage to Lamar (KLAA) 6500 then up to 8500 and head to Limon (KLIC). This will keep you out of Denver's Class B (unless you really want to go there) and just follow around Class B (watch out for the 2000 ft tower almost due east of DIA!!! Tower has lights, the guy wires DON'T!) and this takes you right into Greeley. Or from Limon, head north to Fort Morgan (KFMM) then west to Greeley.
Once you're past the ridge at Limon, you can descend to 6500 if you'd like, but it's easier to stay at 8500 until past Fort Morgan and guarantees you'll be higher than the tower.
If you're using any of the tablet software or have any GPS, the tower will probably be marked as an obstruction. It's on the paper sectionals. Please don't run into it.
Elliott?
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Scott@KTYR
Welcome and Congrats on getting your PPL.
I am not sure anyone above mentioned Mountain Wave Winds.
Try to get to the Denver area before Noon because by then the air will heat up and the west to east jet stream blowing across the Rockies will speed up and make for a very rough ride.
In July I flew out of Pueblo at 2:00pm heading to Texas. I bounced for Two Hours before the ride smoothed out.
I am not sure anyone above mentioned Mountain Wave Winds.
Try to get to the Denver area before Noon because by then the air will heat up and the west to east jet stream blowing across the Rockies will speed up and make for a very rough ride.
In July I flew out of Pueblo at 2:00pm heading to Texas. I bounced for Two Hours before the ride smoothed out.
Depends entirely on which part of the year. Summer? on the ground by noon or deal with winds and tstorms. Fall and winter -incredible flying, smooth, just great! But winter also means drive the mountains, not flying.
I sure hope not! The two things I still miss the most about Colorado are the flying and my flying friends
Dale Goodnight at the old Hoffman Pilot Center.
I don't know what fight you're trying to pick. I was referring to the 150/160HP cherokees not the 180.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Holy hell. How big do you fly your patterns?
There's almost two miles to the Delta from the center of the runway on crosswind.
V1-Vr-V2
Pre-Flight
LOL Well, you wouldn't want to brush right up against it, right? - given how accurate ATC radar is and such...
But yes - thanks for the visuals to reinforce my point; less than two miles with someone unfamiliar with the airspace and a new PPL holder - pretty good reasons to avoid EIK even though it's the closest to the OPs destination.
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gkainz
Final Approach
Hey Nate - your map is expired.
Clark1961
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Hey Nate - your map is expired.
I've heard that 'bout Nate!
Not much to add...everything posted is true and they're all lies too.
I've done Denver<->Houston several times and Shreveport isn't much further. It's a long day with fuel stops. ADS-B or XM weather is nice for the trip length but the fuel stop is pretty good for weather update. If there is a front moving through then be talking to ATC or flightwatch if you don't have on board weather. Talk to ATC anyway - Fort Worth center is very helpful and a lot of the guys I've talked to are pilots. If you stray north into Kansas City's territory, well they seem to be really busy most of the time so haven't gotten to chat with them while en-route. I have heard Kansas City controllers flat out tell folks they are too busy to give multiple practice approaches...but they have never turned me down for flight following.
Enjoy the trip, leave yourself plenty of time, know where the class D & C airports are since they can get you to a motel for the night when your plans are interrupted by weather. When you get to the Denver area, hook-up with a local CFI for a short lesson on density altitude. Fly your airspeeds for landing and departure and lean for max power...and plan for rougher air over Colorado - I just call them potholes in the sky.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
What others said.
None of the Denver metro airports are really "in" the mountains. Denver is mostly a higher-elevation version of Kansas.
The density altitude gets up over 9000 ft here in the summer, but the runways are pretty long too so it is nbd.
None of the Denver metro airports are really "in" the mountains. Denver is mostly a higher-elevation version of Kansas.
The density altitude gets up over 9000 ft here in the summer, but the runways are pretty long too so it is nbd.
They're not in the mountains, but they're close enough to gets some winds. 20 G 33 was good student solo weather when I learned at BJC decades ago.
Of course, if you're going west out of Denver it would behoove you to avail your self of the special training that is available out of the flatland Denver airports for flying in the mountains.
Of course, if you're going west out of Denver it would behoove you to avail your self of the special training that is available out of the flatland Denver airports for flying in the mountains.
l8evator
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l8evator
I don't think anyone warned you about the visibility up here. Be prepared to watch your landmarks sit on your windshield for an excessively long time. Visibility greater than 100 miles is pretty common and some folks used to the South's 7 miles can get discouraged waiting an hour to get to that hill up ahead. Just part of the multiple difficulties of living where we do.
Well there is the advantage of being able to actually see and avoid thunderstorms, rain showers and such, but that hardly makes up for the long time looking at where you are going to be eventually.
Scott
Well there is the advantage of being able to actually see and avoid thunderstorms, rain showers and such, but that hardly makes up for the long time looking at where you are going to be eventually.
Scott
All runways seem to have move up 10 degrees.
!GXY 06/032 GXY RWY 9/27 CHANGED TO RWY 10/28 1406241409-PERM
!GXY 06/031 GXY RWY 16/34 CHANGED TO RWY 17/35 1406241406-PERM
They also request an 800' TPA instead of the default 1000'
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
I think that requires a sarcasm emoticon!