Demographics Can't Be Beat

I'm almost never at the airport. I still average 500 hours on a slow year. I don't typically have the time to just "hang out" at the airport.

As to the number of people my age that I know that could actually afford general aviation.........Zero.......and I wouldn't exactly say that is their fault. I wouldn't guess most of these people will be able to afford it before their 50(s) if ever.

I have a recent hire who's now reporting to me. He just turned 28, graduated from a state school with a Bachelors in IT, and does mostly SQL coding. He didn't get much help from his parents on getting his degree, and wound up borrowing about $35,000 to get through his Bachelors. He's five years into his career and is just now making $50,000 per year. He's still paying off those loans, pays $900 per month on a 450 sq ft studio apartment in a decent but not particularly trendy part of town. He may be paying on that five year old Malibu he bought used as well. I don't think he's interested in aviation, which is just as well, he can't afford it anyway. The Great Recession has taken its toll on salaries, even for skilled people.
 
I have a recent hire who's now reporting to me. He just turned 28, graduated from a state school with a Bachelors in IT, and does mostly SQL coding. He didn't get much help from his parents on getting his degree, and wound up borrowing about $35,000 to get through his Bachelors. He's five years into his career and is just now making $50,000 per year. He's still paying off those loans, pays $900 per month on a 450 sq ft studio apartment in a decent but not particularly trendy part of town. He may be paying on that five year old Malibu he bought used as well. I don't think he's interested in aviation, which is just as well, he can't afford it anyway. The Great Recession has taken its toll on salaries, even for skilled people.
Had I actually did the school thing (instead of dropping out in high school) it's quite unlikely I'd make the money I make today. Never having a student loan in my life has been nice as well.
 
I got lucky... I have a good job, no student debt, and had an airplane thrown in my lap. Could I do this the same if renting? Sure, but it'd cost me a lot more. I don't know many folks my age that want to spend nearly as much money on a single hobby (let alone aviation, which gets a bad rap on the media) as I do.

Actually had a conversation with a lady today about this... she was very concerned with GA due to the aviation reporting she had seen -- and she's been in media her entire career. If the media didn't make GA look like a bunch of dangerous, no-flight-plan-filing (lol) cowboys, maybe we'd have a chance. Oh, and get everybody to stop suing one another for trivial BS.
 
Could the reason be that us "old-timers" like to actually talk face-to-face?

I'd think that if you averaged the age of any FagBook pilot group, you'd come up with a very very low number. The "kids" don't like to socialize, hang out and share hangar stories in person. That is not how the new generations do it. FagBook is the new fad and that's where you'll find young pilots. (as James pointed out) These kids socialize via keyboards or iPhone screens.

That's just my take on it.

Now, Jay, make me an offer I cannot refuse (no, I do not own any race horses) and I'll fly the wife down to the beach and talk your ear off about airplanes. :D
You've been here 2yrs less than I have, and have 3x as many posts. Your age demographic point is moot.
 
Also keep in mind OSH is a tuff thing to pull off when you young and a working professional. Even with the large amount of time I have off it would be tuff to swing and spend enough time for it to be worth it.

For OLDER retired folks, they got nothing but spare time, so it's no shock to me that OSH has older folks.

I'm on a few flying groups on Facebook and meetup, and I've seen a decent amount of younger pilots.

Just your demo, EAA meeting or a flyin in a work day, probably older folks, meetup group or Facebook group or flyin to a backcountry camping outing, younger turnout.

Don't think the sky is falling.

That's exactly my problem. I've been wanting to go to OSH for many years now, but it's a time of year that is very tough to get vacation time in my industry, and I'd want to be able to have enough time to enjoy myself.

It will happen one of these years, but it would be a heck of a lot easier if I had gone back in the college days, or was currently retired (and I'm still a long way from that day).
 
Haha!

You assume much. I was more perturbed by his far reaching conclusions from a sample of one.

Amusing retort on your part though. Well done. Most people with your apparent viewpoint don't have much of a sense of humor. ;)

I would agree that a single sample isn't proof of anything. But there are numerous demographic studies showing that western world families are not reproducing at a rate that would sustain growth, whereas Muslim families are vastly out-reproducing. For example: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...e-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/

My family is an example of the former. The Muslim family is an example of the latter.
 
That's exactly my problem. I've been wanting to go to OSH for many years now, but it's a time of year that is very tough to get vacation time in my industry, and I'd want to be able to have enough time to enjoy myself.

It will happen one of these years, but it would be a heck of a lot easier if I had gone back in the college days, or was currently retired (and I'm still a long way from that day).


Oh, baloney. Mary and I have made it to 34 Oshkosh fly-ins (in a row) through births, deaths, marriages, divorces, three jobs, and four different businesses in three different states.

For us to attend we must bring in professional "Inn Sitters" from Ohio, who work with our existing staff and basically become us for the duration of Oshkosh, usually 12 days. This costs as much as our flight up and lodging for the whole week, but the fly-in is held during our statistically busiest month of the year, so it must be done. Oh, and we then must fly 6.5 hours each way, VFR, to get to Oshkosh.

We do it happily. :)

Oshkosh is immutable, unchanging, and non-negotiable. If I ever miss it, it will be because I'm dead or disabled.
 
Oh, baloney. Mary and I have made it to 34 Oshkosh fly-ins (in a row) through births, deaths, marriages, divorces, three jobs, and four different businesses in three different states.

For us to attend we must bring in professional "Inn Sitters" from Ohio, who work with our existing staff and basically become us for the duration of Oshkosh, usually 12 days. This costs as much as our flight up and lodging for the whole week, but the fly-in is held during our statistically busiest month of the year, so it must be done. Oh, and we then must fly 6.5 hours each way, VFR, to get to Oshkosh.

We do it happily. :)

Oshkosh is immutable, unchanging, and non-negotiable. If I ever miss it, it will be because I'm dead or disabled.


Great! I'll just let my bosses know that you said it's okay… and then I'm sure they'll be okay if I'm there.

Come on, it doesn't work like that in some industries. Sure, if I owned my own business I could probably make some arrangements (for a cost) as you described above. I'm in law enforcement, and it just doesn't work like that in this business. That's our busy season as well, and only so many of our folks can be gone at any given time. We vote our vacations for specified blocks, a year in advance, based on seniority, and two of the five guys I vote against fight for that block off each year (and are senior to me).

I get a ton of vacation in my line of work, but that doesn't always mean that it's available when I want it to be. But, I suppose I could always just quit my job… might cut into my flying budget a bit though.

Anyway, I assure you that I'll be there one of these days, and I'll happily stop by to party with all of you when I make it there. But, I can honestly say that my "excuse" isn't baloney!
 
I've heard this discussion for about every activity that people are passionate about, and it is usually predicated by someone hanging around with old guys. Just before Christmas it was the fellow working at the music store and two old guys, sitting there at two in the afternoon, talking about the impending demise of classical guitar. That said, I do agree that GA is on the down side right now, but just because young people aren't hanging around the airport and chatting it up with the old folks, doesn't mean it won't ever turn around.
 
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Oh, baloney. Mary and I have made it to 34 Oshkosh fly-ins (in a row) through births, deaths, marriages, divorces, three jobs, and four different businesses in three different states.

For us to attend we must bring in professional "Inn Sitters" from Ohio, who work with our existing staff and basically become us for the duration of Oshkosh, usually 12 days. This costs as much as our flight up and lodging for the whole week, but the fly-in is held during our statistically busiest month of the year, so it must be done. Oh, and we then must fly 6.5 hours each way, VFR, to get to Oshkosh.

We do it happily. :)

Oshkosh is immutable, unchanging, and non-negotiable. If I ever miss it, it will be because I'm dead or disabled.
It is obvious that GA is a big part of your life, and that you identify with it. But there are a lot of pilots who have never been to Oshkosh. Are they any less a pilot? Do we measure pilots by how many Oshkosh's they've attended?
 
It is obvious that GA is a big part of your life, and that you identify with it. But there are a lot of pilots who have never been to Oshkosh. Are they any less a pilot? Do we measure pilots by how many Oshkosh's they've attended?
Of course not, but I personally highly recommend they try to attend if able! If it's high enough on your personal priority list, you'll find a way to go if it's at all possible. If you can't, you can't.
 
Flying in both the North MA ,and South FLA, I can say aviation can be a bunch of cliques that are tough to break into. I do sun n fun yearly,and osh every other year. It's not always easy to find a group,looking for new members. It can be a lot of work to break in,but it usually is well worth it.
 
I've heard this discussion for about every activity there is, and it is usually predicated by someone hanging around with old guys. Just before Christmas, it was the fellow working at the music store, and two old guys, talking about the impending demise of classical guitar. That said, I do agree that GA is on the down side right now, but just because young people aren't hanging around the airport and chatting it up with the old folks, doesn't mean it won't ever turn around.

Well in the case of classical guitar, they're right! :)
 
It is obvious that GA is a big part of your life, and that you identify with it. But there are a lot of pilots who have never been to Oshkosh. Are they any less a pilot? Do we measure pilots by how many Oshkosh's they've attended?

If you think back to what Oshkosh was 20+ years ago you can find something like it if you look around. I went to the SouthEast Regional Flyin (SERFI) back in 2011 or 2012. It occurs every October and is located in LA (Lower Alabama) It is small but active and you are not competing with thousands of people shoved into a small area. It is what Oshkosh USED to be. I bet there are a hundred of these scattered around the country every year.
 
I went to Oshkosh one year. It was OK. I got tired of standing in line, it was hot, and perhaps if I had flown in, instead of driving, it would have been better. But then, I went to Burning Man, and wasn't impressed with that either. Maybe it is me.
 
I went to Oshkosh one year. It was OK. I got tired of standing in line, it was hot, and perhaps if I had flown in, instead of driving, it would have been better. But then, I went to Burning Man, and wasn't impressed with that either. Maybe it is me.
Oh it's not that hot. Granted, I'm heading north to get there. Staying in the dorms, I certainly want a/c, though.
 
It is obvious that GA is a big part of your life, and that you identify with it. But there are a lot of pilots who have never been to Oshkosh. Are they any less a pilot? Do we measure pilots by how many Oshkosh's they've attended?

Now that we live in South Texas, just as far from Oshkosh as you can be (almost), both culturally and geographically, two things always amaze me:

1. Every pilot knows what Oshkosh is -- even here.
2. Even if they've never attended, it's on their bucket list to do so.

IMHO, there are several "must do" flights. Landing at First Flight Airport in Kitty Hawk, for example, is one of them. Flying over the Grand Canyon is another. But at the top of every pilot's list must be Oshkosh. It is an absolutely unique place -- there is no other place like it in the world.
 
I'm almost never at the airport. I still average 500 hours on a slow year. I don't typically have the time to just "hang out" at the airport.

As to the number of people my age that I know that could actually afford general aviation.........Zero.......and I wouldn't exactly say that is their fault. I wouldn't guess most of these people will be able to afford it before their 50(s) if ever.

You should see how fast he drives in the entrance road and leaves... ;) ;) ;)

Kidding Jesse. Kidding.

As far as the "they'll never be able to afford it", I used to say that about my peers around your age also. In about ten years you'll probably see an interesting thing happen. SOME of them get strange promotions (like the ones that make you wonder how... they don't have any skills!) and that small percentage WILL suddenly have some disposable income in their 40s.

I don't know how to put this nicely so I'll just say it... A certain number of total deadbeats hang out in large enough companies that they get promoted by the Peter Principal into job roles they'll never ever ever fully be able to do properly nor have the skillset for. But the salary also comes with it.

It's really eerie in your 40s to realize some of these people that never busted their butt in their lives and couldn't if they tried, but have 10-15 years of service at some company that's got such a large staff they just kinda got "auto-promoted", are suddenly doing really well. Maybe not keeping up with the Alpha types who are still busting tail, but not bad at all.

It falls under "sometimes even a blind squirrel gets a nut", I guess. Watch for it. You'll be surprised, shocked, a little angry when you see it at first, and then you'll shrug and think, "Well at least he can pay off that divorce now and catch up on child support and feed his own kids..." LOL.

Okay maybe that's mean there at the end.

And there's also a small few who really do know how to save money and have been squirreling away a low paycheck for years and doing the beans and rice thing, and they sometimes get rewarded with a windfall in a stock or other investments. (Not common right now much, but it happens.)

One of my neighbors who wasn't any super-engineer but he was decent and worked for the local telecom, found himself an overnight millionaire on AOL stock one day, and left telecom to start his own business. He's really wealthy now.

So... it happens. Not to everyone of course.

The result for GA is that unless they actually manage to pull themselves through a few layers of the economic strata then learning to fly is not something that will ever even be on their radar, much less something they can actually fit in their budgets.

The assumption most folks have or really work or use a budget is a problem not mentioned. People are addicted to debt. Epidemic proportions. It permeates the entire society. I've seen a few folks, myself included, who pulled themselves through the strata specifically BECAUSE they wanted to keep a budget and they knew a higher pay scale meant more "disposable" income.

I have a recent hire who's now reporting to me. He just turned 28, graduated from a state school with a Bachelors in IT, and does mostly SQL coding. He didn't get much help from his parents on getting his degree, and wound up borrowing about $35,000 to get through his Bachelors. He's five years into his career and is just now making $50,000 per year. He's still paying off those loans, pays $900 per month on a 450 sq ft studio apartment in a decent but not particularly trendy part of town. He may be paying on that five year old Malibu he bought used as well. I don't think he's interested in aviation, which is just as well, he can't afford it anyway. The Great Recession has taken its toll on salaries, even for skilled people.

He'll be Greg Kainz in 20 years and Greg's not doing awful. :) If he doesn't go crazy dealing with SQL for 20 years that is. Oh wait. That's Greg too!! ;) ;) ;) (Sorry Greg! I couldn't resist that setup!)

Had I actually did the school thing (instead of dropping out in high school) it's quite unlikely I'd make the money I make today. Never having a student loan in my life has been nice as well.

Definitely can happen. Some schools can teach you NOT to think or not to try things. You're kinda determined to just try stuff and make it work and not get it wrong in the process. Computers and code and operational stuff tend to reward that behavior when new problems are the thing that needs doing. Not everyone will step out of the procedural lineup and just try something and also do it in a safe way to see if they can fix a problem. They'll look around for the manual or someone who knows how to fix it.

It is obvious that GA is a big part of your life, and that you identify with it. But there are a lot of pilots who have never been to Oshkosh. Are they any less a pilot? Do we measure pilots by how many Oshkosh's they've attended?

No. Most who've gone measure how many they've missed.

I went to Oshkosh one year. It was OK. I got tired of standing in line, it was hot, and perhaps if I had flown in, instead of driving, it would have been better. But then, I went to Burning Man, and wasn't impressed with that either. Maybe it is me.

Max isn't in that category however. Haha.

Lines? What the heck were you doing Max? We don't do lines at OSH. Food is in the fridge in the RV and anyone is welcome to make a sandwich anytime, beer is in the cooler, shade and chairs are under the awning unless a tornado is passing through, and about the only things you'd ever have a line for would be the shower or the port a potty and if you avoid certain areas, not even those. You need to come back sometime and we'll show ya how to do Oshkosh. Lines ain't it. Heh.

Airplane camping, a little bit of lines for the showers and bathrooms but not much if timed right.

And I wouldn't know how to do it (especially the most important part - don't leave the grounds at night - that's the real Oshkosh) if Kent hadn't shown me. I still remember him calling me on the cell and saying "Dude. Get your *** back over here. Leave everyone else in Green Bay and come give me a ride and we'll talk. You're doing this all wrong."
 
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