Demographics Can't Be Beat

PPC1052 said:
I don't understand this. I just go fly when I want.
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Ok, I'll give you a little bit, not because Im being coy, but because I could write a book. Where I fly the airport manager is also the school owner and owns all the rental planes. During my training one of the airport employees would constantly talk about how much he disliked my instructor and how he would soon "be gone". I brought this up to management and got a shrug. There are two shops on the field, one owned by the airport manager and one independent. When I helped my friend arraigned the annual on her plane, I took it to the independent shop because a couple of people recommended it. When the airport manager found this out, he was ****ed and told me so. Keep in mind also that I am a renter, now my instructor is indeed "out" and I was told he cannot instruct in their airplanes. Period. So, no continual training, no BFR, no instrument training at this airport. I can switch instructors if I want to keep flying there. There is plenty more, but that gives you an idea. And with this, Im done on this subject. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, I was just commiserating.
 
I'm at my hangar probably 4 out of 7 days a week during the flying season. No outsiders can get passed the fence so any visitors are already badged by the airport authority or are guests of a badge holder.

I grew up where there was only a barbed wire fence and you could drive a car through the gate without a key. The old guys were there almost daily working on something if not just chilling drinking jack & coke.
 
frfly172 said:
Being an old guy,I can say ,some of the older pilots don't have the patience to deal with younger pilots.
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I agree. However, I've seen it happen both ways. Some of the young pilots don't have the patience with the older ones.

Fearless Tower said:
Seems the warbird community is often it's own worst enemy when it comes to preservation. There are still a lot of good people, but too many self righteous a-holes that drive people away. Money does strange things to people....
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In my own (personal) observation, many us pilots can be pretty smart and arrogant people. That brings its own drawbacks, especially when dealing with other smart and arrogant people. Heck, just look at PoA! :) What a simple innocent comment can turn into, how many members have been banned, unbanned, rebanned etc.
 
Interesting, the way this thread has twisted and turned. :)

What you guys perhaps failed to grasp was that the group I described is BY FAR the most active group of pilots on the field. It's not like there are a bunch of antisocial young guys flying all the time and simply not drinking scotch with us. That group simply does not exist, at least not at our VERY well-run and growing airport.

It's a creepy thing, pondering the possibility that we are the tail end of the generation that drives GA. In ten years, when I'm 67, I sure hope Mary and I aren't drinking alone.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
This was incredibly apparent at OSH. Four of us at age 20 were by far the youngest people in the North 40 not accompanied by a parent.

I will say many of the people in the North 40 were total pricks. Very very cliquey and one guy (maybe 75 at the youngest) had the audacity to say "youre a pilot? Youre just a rich prick" I'd said 2 words to the man before he said that.

I won't be back to OSH anytime soon.
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What were the two words?
 
timwinters said:
Have you ever heard of the term idiom?
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Thanks Tim.

For the record the guy asked "Did you fly-in" and I responded with "yeah I rented a Piper arrow from CO, you?" To which he responded with what I said above. It was extra awkward because we were on the shuttle from the N40 to the flightline
 
Mtns2Skies said:
This was incredibly apparent at OSH. Four of us at age 20 were by far the youngest people in the North 40 not accompanied by a parent.

I will say many of the people in the North 40 were total pricks. Very very cliquey and one guy (maybe 75 at the youngest) had the audacity to say "youre a pilot? Youre just a rich prick" I'd said 2 words to the man before he said that.

I won't be back to OSH anytime soon.
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Really? Grow a backbone and put that crusty old fart back in his place. Make him feel like **** and then walk away to find somewhere else to spend your time.

You all are too damn sensitive. Nobody is going to roll out the red carpet for you. Find what you like and find someone you bond with.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Really? Grow a backbone and put that crusty old fart back in his place. Make him feel like **** and then walk away to find somewhere else to spend your time.

You all are too damn sensitive. Nobody is going to roll out the red carpet for you. Find what you like and find someone you bond with.
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I like it!

I've never had a problem fitting in at any airport, even when I was the 30-something guy hanging around the WWII guys. If someone is a dick, shun them and move on.
 
Well Jay, if you would stay home every once in a while people like me would come drink with you. ;)
 
Jay Honeck said:
Interesting, the way this thread has twisted and turned. :)

What you guys perhaps failed to grasp was that the group I described is BY FAR the most active group of pilots on the field. It's not like there are a bunch of antisocial young guys flying all the time and simply not drinking scotch with us. That group simply does not exist, at least not at our VERY well-run and growing airport.

It's a creepy thing, pondering the possibility that we are the tail end of the generation that drives GA. In ten years, when I'm 67, I sure hope Mary and I aren't drinking alone.
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Your observation may be geographic. At my airport outside of DC, at 42 I'm about median age.

One thing I notice is the old guys hang around the airport, do laps in the pattern, and chat with folks from their hangars.

The younger folks show up to the airport, pee, park their car in the hangar and jump in their planes and go somewhere. They'll leave early and return late. They're a lot less noticeable.
 
I'm in my 40s and certificated at 19. I had to take eight years off for fiscal reasons somewhere in the middle. Totally normal. Flying ain't cheap.

I "came back" when someone who cared about me conspired to introduce me to two older guys who had a 182 and wanted a third sucker... cough... co-owner of the LLC that owns the airplane. :)

A co-worker and long time friend waited until his late 30s/early 40s to start flight training and his chosen poison is sailplanes. He did it out of the blue with no prompting from me, but it's fun to talk flying during lunch now. I "catch" him watching gliding videos and shopping for gliders regularly. He tells me daily about differences between the gliders and that his budget is almost where he wants it to get his own ship.

Another co-worker in his 30s came up to both of us and asked us just this last Friday what we thought of powered parachute flying. We were both a little taken aback but he has his heart set on doing something like that. We fixed wingers were utterly clueless about where to tell him to get started, but he appreciated the other questions we answered and our concerns that he be careful to find a quality instructor.

The only person I ever talked out of flying was a co-worker who wanted to do it solely for transportation. I didn't try to talk him out of it, but I didn't lie about the training or aircraft price tags. He realized he gets a screaming deal on the airlines all on his own.

It's not all doom and gloom. The younger crowd does lean toward the LSA and Sport stuff first... They're still stinging from not entering the workforce until a later age and are now building some personal wealth slowly. Very slowly. They're very careful with their "fun" dollars.

No grass grows under the three Goboshes at APA. They're turning and burning even on weekdays. I meet more new people at the airport just talking to the folks opening the hangar for one of them that's next to ours, than I meet anywhere else on the field.
 
RussR said:
Of COURSE the guys sitting around the airport shooting the breeze are older. They're retired, or at the least have kids out of the house. The younger people aren't at the airport chatting because instead, they're at home with their family and kids. Or pursuing a career. Or starting a business. Or, yes, playing XBox I suppose, but I think that's a little overhyped as a reason for anything.
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Yeah I was going to make the same point. I'm either flying somewhere for work or vacation, or i'm squeezing in a fun or proficiency flight in a 3hr window on a Saturday afternoon. Its rare that I have time to kick it at the airport.
 
RussR said:
Of COURSE the guys sitting around the airport shooting the breeze are older. They're retired,
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And their wives tell them to GTH out of the house and go do something, so they sit around the airport, drink coffee, eat donuts, read the paper, and BS the day away.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Interesting, the way this thread has twisted and turned. :)
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This is PoA, get used to sick minds twisting things around ... :)

Jay Honeck said:
What you guys perhaps failed to grasp was that the group I described is BY FAR the most active group of pilots on the field. It's not like there are a bunch of antisocial young guys flying all the time and simply not drinking scotch with us. That group simply does not exist, at least not at our VERY well-run and growing airport.
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As Brad mentioned, geography might be a big factor. There are several small airports in our area and I can see different ages at different times at each airport. You have the student training airport, old-timer/for-pleasure airport, money-making airport etc. Yours might fall under the second category.
Actually, at Mustang Beach, I rarely see anyone. That might be due to the fact that we land, unload and head to your hotel. So now *I* am the problem. :D

Jay Honeck said:
It's a creepy thing, pondering the possibility that we are the tail end of the generation that drives GA. In ten years, when I'm 67, I sure hope Mary and I aren't drinking alone.
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No worries, you're not gonna drink alone. I will help you. And this time I'll bring the beer. :)
 
BigBadLou said:
Actually, at Mustang Beach, I rarely see anyone. That might be due to the fact that we land, unload and head to your hotel. So now *I* am the problem. :D

No worries, you're not gonna drink alone. I will help you. And this time I'll bring the beer. :)
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lol We left Mustang Beach Airport (KRAS) almost two years ago, after it became clear that the OTBC (Out of Town Billionaires Club) wasn't going to allow any new hangars to be built.

We could sit at KRAS for days and not see another living soul, except for transient tourist pilots like yourself. That's what happens when you have only 18 hangars with just 9 aircraft in them, all but a few owned by OTBs.

Since 2014 we've been at McCampbell (KTFP), on the mainland. We LOVE this airport -- it is the mirror image of Mustang Beach, being well-run and receptive to pilots needs. They have just opened a bank of new t-hangars, with more on the horizon.

We own a big, multi-plane hangar (we can put y'all indoors, next time you come down), and I just finished adding a shower and a kitchen. :)
 
Most of the people I see hanging around the airport are 50s and younger, waiting for their passengers to arrive.

There is the occasional older retired person, but it would seem to me that only retired people would have the time to hang out at the airport for no particular reason. It has been that way since I was young.
 
BigBadLou said:
As Brad mentioned, geography might be a big factor. There are several small airports in our area and I can see different ages at different times at each airport. You have the student training airport, old-timer/for-pleasure airport, money-making airport etc. Yours might fall under the second category.
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Yeah, there is definitely truth to this. KJOT has a pretty nice social scene. As does C09 (Morris, IL). There are a lot of factors that come into play to make an airport good or bad and that surely impacts the age of the characters hanging around.
 
Everskyward said:
Most of the people I see hanging around the airport are 50s and younger, waiting for their passengers to arrive.

There is the occasional older retired person, but it would seem to me that only retired people would have the time to hang out at the airport for no particular reason. It has been that way since I was young.
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I think in line with a previous point made about OSH, yeah you see lots of old guys hanging out in the lobby together because they don't have much else to do, but I would say most of the activity on the ramp and in the air is by people well under 40.
 
I recently rejoined the flying club I used to be in. At the new member meeting of about half a dozen, I was the oldest. (59) I think several of them were active duty military.
 
As a youth in the 1960s I went to airports with my father and it seemed to me looking through my young eyes most of the people there were old and deaf.
I am 66 now and many of the people I meet at the airport are younger than I.
One of the things I like best about aviation is the people involved.
Part of the fun of my home airport is all my friends there.
When I fly to other airports most of the time; I interact with nice people.
I have met some wonderful people at airports far from home. They seem ready to help with whatever I might desire.
A have enjoyed most of the people I met at AirVenture and have become friends with many of them.
I have not encountered negative airport politics or I am insensitive to it.
I am grateful for my little slice of the aviation time line and suspect GA will live on long after I am forgotten.
I love everything about aviation and want to enjoy every minute of it I can.
I don’t give curmudgeons the power to diminish my joy or have a desire to teach them social skills.
 
jkaduk said:
I recently rejoined the flying club I used to be in. At the new member meeting of about half a dozen, I was the oldest. (59) I think several of them were active duty military.
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I would guess that flying clubs, as a more affordable alternative to owning, would trend younger than the rest of GA.

I've been at the hangar for 5 hours today, getting everything cleaned up and ready for the annual condition inspection tomorrow. The youngest guy I've seen is in his 30s, and he works here.

What sucks is it's a beautiful, warm, sunny day. When I started flying two decades ago, the sky would have been full of training aircraft on a day like this.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I like it!

I've never had a problem fitting in at any airport, even when I was the 30-something guy hanging around the WWII guys. If someone is a dick, shun them and move on.
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This.
 
It's also your plane.

I'm guilty of it too.

You show up in a J3, PA18, C180/5, C120/40, Stinson, tri pacer, 7AC, M7, etc, seems more folks will bring you in to the so called fold

Show up in a brand new 172/82 or Cirrus, it's kinda a hey look it's a dentist or something.

Not sayin' it's right, just a observation.
 
I have been to OSH several times.. LOVED it every time.. it is what you make it...:yes:
 

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OP, as someone else mentioned, I think it's a geographic thing. My airport seems to be mostly young(ish) guys.

IMO, it's in the nature of the game that the average age will be a little older. Most kids starting out don't have the money for it and sometimes haven't really settled down. That said, all of us need to be evangelists. Talk to people about flying. Fly Young Eagles. Do Eagle Flights. Give non-EAA rides. Take people to the airport. Let's share this...no hobby perpetuates itself.

I don't see a place for the negativity. Realism yes, but just "GA will be gone in 10 years"....c'mon people. YOU can change that if you get off your duff.
 
jkaduk said:
I recently rejoined the flying club I used to be in. At the new member meeting of about half a dozen, I was the oldest. (59) I think several of them were active duty military.
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Part of this is you're talking about a *meeting*. I don't sit in rooms for meetings if I can help it. I do them on conference calls or online. It's 2016.

If a club has important info to send me, they'd better make sure they send out an e-mail or make a good media presentation and put it online.

Death By PowerPoint is reserved in my life for significantly smart *experts* who are worth wasting time in a room listening attentively to and probably taking copious notes.

Some club guy reading me club info that would have been better put in a single page e-mail? Don't waste my time. We have technology for that now.

And if you put it online somewhere it can be referred to again and again, as long as you commit to any updates needed in the future.

I can't think of an in-person meeting trying to teach something where some dolt didn't interrupt and derail the instructor at least for a few minutes, on some weird tangent.

Watching the same thing in a well done webinar, I don't have to wait for the one clueless person in the room wasting time either.

And if I'm the clueless one, I can figure that out with an email or a phone call to the author of the media and then they can evaluate whether my question is going to be common enough that they should add the information to the presentation -- that whole "committed to updates" thing. But I'm not slowing up 99% of the room.
 
I'm waiting for the ADS-B and aging pilot population to effect a suden flooding of the market in 36 months or so. I plan to buy a Sf-260 with a zero time engine, for $3.65.

Might have to bid a bit higher, maybe, but not much. . .
 
Sundancer said:
I'm waiting for the ADS-B and aging pilot population to effect a suden flooding of the market in 36 months or so. I plan to buy a Sf-260 with a zero time engine, for $3.65.

Might have to bid a bit higher, maybe, but not much. . .
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Yep, that's another aspect of the equation that is poised to hit. If demographics are immutable, so is the law of supply and demand.

I predict that by 2026 you'll be able to buy a really nice airplane for <$20K. Looking around my airport, and the average age of the owners, there should be a veritable flood of cherry, low-time planes available soon.

Perhaps this will lead to the resurgence of "affordable flying" we've all been hoping for?
 
Jay Honeck said:
What sucks is it's a beautiful, warm, sunny day. When I started flying two decades ago, the sky would have been full of training aircraft on a day like this.
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A few decades ago, an airplane did not cost as much as a house and fuel was cheaper than beer. And back then, there were no smartphones to waste thousands of dollars on every year. So flying was relatively cheaper. Emphasis on "relatively". Could that be a factor?
 
Jay Honeck said:
Yep, that's another aspect of the equation that is poised to hit. If demographics are immutable, so is the law of supply and demand.

I predict that by 2026 you'll be able to buy a really nice airplane for <$20K. Looking around my airport, and the average age of the owners, there should be a veritable flood of cherry, low-time planes available soon.

Perhaps this will lead to the resurgence of "affordable flying" we've all been hoping for?
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Here's me holding my breath lol
 
Jay Honeck said:
Yep, that's another aspect of the equation that is poised to hit. If demographics are immutable, so is the law of supply and demand.

I predict that by 2026 you'll be able to buy a really nice airplane for <$20K. Looking around my airport, and the average age of the owners, there should be a veritable flood of cherry, low-time planes available soon.

Perhaps this will lead to the resurgence of "affordable flying" we've all been hoping for?
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But as you are well aware, the acquisition cost is not the killer on most of these. Buy a $20K plane and need a $20K engine in a few months. And then some multiple $10's of K avionics. Etc., etc.

I'm not sure how it will ever be "affordable" again. I'm not sure how "affordable" it was in the 1970's either. But it was culturally waaaay cooler. Pilots -> astronauts. WW2 pilots were in their 50's generating way more disposable income that any other time in their lives. The WW2 infrastructure (airports all over the place) was still in pretty good repair. All that converged to produce the boom. And now it has diverged.

John
 
Jay Honeck said:
I would guess that flying clubs, as a more affordable alternative to owning, would trend younger than the rest of GA.

I've been at the hangar for 5 hours today, getting everything cleaned up and ready for the annual condition inspection tomorrow. The youngest guy I've seen is in his 30s, and he works here.

What sucks is it's a beautiful, warm, sunny day. When I started flying two decades ago, the sky would have been full of training aircraft on a day like this.
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But that's a Thursday afternoon, most folks are at work.
 
jsstevens said:
But as you are well aware, the acquisition cost is not the killer on most of these. Buy a $20K plane and need a $20K engine in a few months. And then some multiple $10's of K avionics. Etc., etc.

I'm not sure how it will ever be "affordable" again. I'm not sure how "affordable" it was in the 1970's either. But it was culturally waaaay cooler. Pilots -> astronauts. WW2 pilots were in their 50's generating way more disposable income that any other time in their lives. The WW2 infrastructure (airports all over the place) was still in pretty good repair. All that converged to produce the boom. And now it has diverged.

John
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I "might" be biased... But..

Experimentals have sparked a huge amount of interest, and in a cost effective way.....

They are the future for GA.... IMHO...
 
N801BH said:
I "might" be biased... But..

Experimentals have sparked a huge amount of interest, and in a cost effective way.....

They are the future for GA.... IMHO...
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Yes and no. Not everyone has the resources and wherewithal to put one of those things together.
 
steingar said:
Yes and no. Not everyone has the resources and wherewithal to put one of those things together.
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There is an enormous and growing market of already-built experimental aircraft, many of them built to a standard of excellence that the certified manufacturers could not afford to provide.

Our RV-8A is built better than any of our certified aircraft were. I'm in the middle of the condition inspection right now, and I am always humbled by ol' Emmit's (the builder) craftsmanship. He put more effort into making things no one will ever see than Piper put into building stuff that everyone saw.

That's not a slam on Piper -- my Warrior and Pathfinder were fine airplanes -- it's just an observation that guys building planes in their garages have the luxury of time. Time to make sure everything is just right, time that the assembly line workers simply do not have to spend.
 
BigBadLou said:
A few decades ago, an airplane did not cost as much as a house and fuel was cheaper than beer. And back then, there were no smartphones to waste thousands of dollars on every year. So flying was relatively cheaper. Emphasis on "relatively". Could that be a factor?
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I'm pretty sure avgas is cheaper than beer.

At least the good beer I drink. :)
 
denverpilot said:
Part of this is you're talking about a *meeting*. I don't sit in rooms for meetings if I can help it. I do them on conference calls or online. It's 2016....
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Well they are the largest club in the nation. So a lot people apparently are OK with going to one meeting to join. You ought to see what it takes to be a CFI in the club.

http://www.plusoneflyers.org/
 
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