Deltahawk - a modern GA engine

Spring Ford

Spring Ford

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SpringFord
It's nearly here, almost, maybe, perhaps.

A modern piston engine that will run on Jet A1.

I thought this engine design was brilliant conceptually and it is amazing to now see it apparently so near realisation.

FAA certification Q4 2019 they say.

Initial offer announced -

180HP turbo-normalised diesel with constant speed propeller
Installed in your aircraft at the factory
Everything included except any required fuel return lines.
$89,900.

The engines will be Certified but this offer is for Experimental category aircraft only.

3 year/600 hour warranty.

As I recall -

Direct drive
No valves/valvetrain/camshaft
Piston port two stroke with air pump (same as the biggest marine engines).
Has mechanical air pump + turbo - will run at reduced power if one fails
No ignition system
No carb icing
Jet A1 or diesel fuel or ...
Liquid cooled - will run at reduced power if coolant lost
Will run without any electrical system operative
No spark plugs to replace
Inverted, upright, vertical to come.
Note:- Even though it is a two stroke it has conventional crankcase lubrication since the induction air is not pumped via the crankcase.

They were trying for continued running with a single failed injector but I am not sure if that has been realised.

Because a diesel has no throttle valve in the intake it is more efficient than an engine with a throttle valve when at reduced power such as in the cruise so fuel consumption reduced compared to 100LL etc.
They say -
  • Initial Testing: 35-40% increased fuel economy when compared to other competing gasoline engines.

I have no interest in Deltahawk other than as a fascinated bystander.

If this can be made to work, the others may as well all go home.
 
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Let’s see... typical C172, about $55,000 in mighty fine shape. New LyCon, factory zero time, around $50,000. New Deltahawk engine, $89,000. Seems like a great idea for an engine swap. Just think of the rural, small strips that have Jet A available... wait- will this thing burn MoDiesel? :) Sign me up for two of em!
 
Don't need it, I installed one of these on my plane:

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8461544f-db69-4479-88b2-82528c5063f2_1.8a5f69e6fd3c65a7ea70c47c4119af99.jpeg
 
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On Paper diesels are the perfect engine: Jet A fuel, no ignition system, longer operating life, lots of power & more efficient at narrow common aircraft operating ranges. Just 3x the cost to acquire and install.
 
Spring Ford said:
Everything included except any required fuel return lines.
$89,900.
Click to expand...

Those are a "mandatory option" for another $24,500. I got a quote for another engine that is STC's for my plane, about $125,000 but if they have to move the battery, that is another $3K. GMAFB.
 
Certified in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, now Q4 2019. It was my dream to build a Sportsman 2+2 with a DeltaHawk. Now that Deltahawk says they are ready you can't build Sportmans anymore.
 
cgrab said:
Certified in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, now Q4 2019. It was my dream to build a Sportsman 2+2 with a DeltaHawk. Now that Deltahawk says they are ready you can't build Sportmans anymore.
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What happened? Did Glasair stop making the kits?
I thought they were really promoting their $250k "Two weeks to Taxi" build program?
(gotta admit, I never expected to see a high wing back-country E-AB that cost more than a good 185)
 
The better fuel economy and the lower costs of Jet-A will reduce fuel cost by almost 50%. Plus, it's turbocharged what is a nice benefit for operation at higher altitudes.

Still, $90k is a lot of upfront money for an unproven, experimental engine. Compared to an experimental 200hp IO360, it will take over 2,000 hrs to break even! I am aware that outside of the US the availability of AVGAS is very limited / nonexistent, but so it the class of experimental aircraft.

Frankly, I am very disappointed about their pricing. For a price in the range of $30k - $40k they would have had a winner. For $90k I however see the only path towards success in certifying the thing and trying to get it in Cessnas and Pipers for the Asian and African training market.
 
Tantalum said:
That's the deal breaker... why would anyone do this?
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So you complain about GA engines being old. Now that there's new technology that's too expensive.

It's like you want a Humvee that corners like a Ferrari, burns fuel like a Prius and costs as much as a Smartcar... It's just not going to happen.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
So you complain about GA engines being old. Now that there's new technology that's too expensive.
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Well my grip with the cost is that I just can't see this unseating the old engines I love to complain about. If I'm flying around a plane with a 180 hp engine chances are, realistically, that the whole plane is not worth more than $90K... so why would I spend the equivalent of a new plane just to replace the engine?

Maybe in a new design this could have a home.. so you're buying a $500K plane new, and it just happens to come with actually a modern engine as opposed to a relic.. sort of like what Diamond did. No one is out there knocking doors down to replace their Piper and Cessna fleets with the diesels, but when placed in a Diamond or come from the factory (as they do in some Pipers) then it seems these things are more viable in getting out there

Mtns2Skies said:
It's like you want a Humvee that corners like a Ferrari, burns fuel like a Prius and costs as much as a Smartcar... It's just not going to happen.
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True.. but a new Toyota Four Runner (a veritable SUV, and accessible to the "common man" (it's a Toyota, after all)) is going to drive much better than your average 1940s automobile, even the sportiest top of the line coup. I'm just asking for basic things in our GA engines that, outside of burdensome regulation, have no real reason why they shouldn't be in our planes
 
cgrab said:
Certified in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, now Q4 2019. It was my dream to build a Sportsman 2+2 with a DeltaHawk. Now that Deltahawk says they are ready you can't build Sportmans anymore.
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When did that happen, no building Sportsmans? Just the Two Weeks to Taxi Thing? Or have they done away with them completely? It was a dream of mine also.
 
Electric propulsion is on the way, would make this obsolete. But not for a year or two1
 
I talked with a nice woman at Deltahawk this year. Very revised design over the past few years, but it doesn't look like they are anywhere close to a viable product. Their 180hp version on an SR20 looked good, but not sure it has flown and not sure the torque/propeller differences and if it has an advantage over the 200 hp 100LL engine.

I was extremely impressed by the Higgs Design two-stroke diesel I saw at the Aero Innovate tent. http://www.ac-aero.com/jet-a/ and http://www.ac-aero.com/gladiator-centurion/
There was a smaller version on display that targets the IO-550 range with 330 hp and some range of power and induction options. Sem-liquid cooled, two-stroke diesel but with twin spark ignition and running on Jet-A. I found it impressive and well-designed, but I'm no Ted DuPuis! The guy I talked with is installing it to test in his RV-10. They are also going to be running it in some big UAVs and that seems like an ideal test bed for getting lots of flight time quickly.

Oh, and you can still do two weeks to taxi on the Sportsman, though the company is making many changes.
 
German guy said:
The better fuel economy and the lower costs of Jet-A will reduce fuel cost by almost 50%. Plus, it's turbocharged what is a nice benefit for operation at higher altitudes.

Still, $90k is a lot of upfront money for an unproven, experimental engine. Compared to an experimental 200hp IO360, it will take over 2,000 hrs to break even! I am aware that outside of the US the availability of AVGAS is very limited / nonexistent, but so it the class of experimental aircraft.

Frankly, I am very disappointed about their pricing. For a price in the range of $30k - $40k they would have had a winner. For $90k I however see the only path towards success in certifying the thing and trying to get it in Cessnas and Pipers for the Asian and African training market.
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For <$90k I can buy a decent used airplane (and have), engine included.
 
German guy said:
Frankly, I am very disappointed about their pricing. For a price in the range of $30k - $40k they would have had a winner. For $90k I however see the only path towards success in certifying the thing and trying to get it in Cessnas and Pipers for the Asian and African training market.
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EXACTLY! This man, err, guy, gets it!
 
I always thought deltahawk was going about this the wrong way. Go in the experimental space and sell there at competitive prices to the Lycoming and CMI solutions. Basically take over the 200hp experimental market. This is realistically about the same size as the new plane market. Once established than work towards certification.

Oh well.

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
Glasair announced they were going to start production of certified Sportsmans. I assumed they would stop the homebuilts at that time.
 
cgrab said:
Glasair announced they were going to start production of certified Sportsmans. I assumed they would stop the homebuilts at that time.
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They might, but "that time" hasn't arrived (yet) and their website still shows conventional kits, quickbuild options and the TWTT (two weeks to taxi) only.

Certified could take a while. Maybe a long while, given the kitbuilt origins of the plane (think Lancair and the lengthy and expensive ES kit to certified Columbia process). And maybe never certified with the FAA, only in Asia as a trainer perhaps, given the Chinese ownership of the company now.
 
The Deltahawk price looks super reasonable compared to what Soloy is predicting for their 230hp C182 SMA diesel (~$165k).
 
Spring Ford said:
I thought this engine design was brilliant conceptually and it is amazing to now see it apparently so near realisation.
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Deltahawk has been this close to realization for so long that it became a legend in aviation, in a bad way.

It's interesting that the 2019 iteration seems significantly reworked from the 2005 originals with blind cylinders. Before, the cylinders were machined from a cast, including the heads. Since Deltahawk does not have valvetrain, there was no need to make heads separate, so they basically made jugs like on any other airplane engine. Well guess what, not anymore. Now they have automotive style removable heads.

 
Tantalum said:
That's the deal breaker... why would anyone do this?
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It's very much in line with the prices for e.g. SMA diesels. I remember back in 2000s those were going to $40k. They are pushing $100k now. Well, of course, an SMA is more powerful than Deltahawk, and it's made in France (although Conti licensed them recently).
 
Does anyone have reliable pricing on the venerable rotax 912?
 
The real tragedy is that there is only so much money out there for investment in products for general aviation and Deltahawk has been sucking up those dollars for almost two decades, including tax payer money from Wisconsin residents. That's an awful lot of cheddar that could have advanced battery storage tech, led to faster composite construction times, maybe lowered the cost of transparent aluminum, etc. Take your pick.


It's amazing to me that AvWeb and others give them free publicity. I stopped believing over 10 years ago. Kitplanes finally caught on last year when they de-listed them from the annual list of engine manufacturers. Last summer I watched the video of a Velocity flying with a Deltahawk back in 2003.

2003!

Then I pulled the trigger on a Lycoming for my own Velocity project.
 
It is well-known on this forum that I think many of the current engine options are outdated tech, but what I don't understand is why somebody would purchase one of these (Deltahawk) when they can get a rotax for a fraction of the cost or if they want to spend the coin and burn jet fuel than there are already diesel options out there.. both of which come with fadec, etc
 
I think EPS engines in the 300 HP range are more compelling. Slap one of those in a Malibu- you’d have a pretty good aircraft.
 
Tantalum said:
It is well-known on this forum that I think many of the current engine options are outdated tech, but what I don't understand is why somebody would purchase one of these (Deltahawk) when they can get a rotax for a fraction of the cost or if they want to spend the coin and burn jet fuel than there are already diesel options out there.. both of which come with fadec, etc
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What Jet-A options?

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
tspear said:
What Jet-A options?
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https://austroengine.at/en/products this one off the top of my head.. it *could* be the only one.. but when your choices are Conti / Lyco / Rotax / Jabiru / Deltahawk / Austro it's a small pool already.. if you want to burn Jet A then the Austro engines have accumulated over 1 million flight hours and so far they seem to be hanging on. The TBO on the DA62 are up to 1,800 hours and they absolutely *sip* fuel.. and have modern single lever controls

Unit74 said:
I hope you are proud of yourself....... This threat is EPIC!!! No... ICONic!!!!!!
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hahah that's too good. I would say this one is ICONic.. I mean we even had a proper thread drift on cross wind and general relativity but managed to bring it back. For what it's worth I'm saving the Epic thread for when https://epicaircraft.com/ decides to advocate low level canyon aerobatic for non proficient individuals
 
Tantalum said:
https://austroengine.at/en/products this one off the top of my head.. it *could* be the only one.. but when your choices are Conti / Lyco / Rotax / Jabiru / Deltahawk / Austro it's a small pool already.. if you want to burn Jet A then the Austro engines have accumulated over 1 million flight hours and so far they seem to be hanging on. The TBO on the DA62 are up to 1,800 hours and they absolutely *sip* fuel.. and have modern single lever controls


hahah that's too good. I would say this one is ICONic.. I mean we even had a proper thread drift on cross wind and general relativity but managed to bring it back. For what it's worth I'm saving the Epic thread for when https://epicaircraft.com/ decides to advocate low level canyon aerobatic for non proficient individuals
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As of a little over a tear ago, Austro is only available if the "factory" is involved. And the factory has to commit to a min purchase. If I recall it was for five planes worth. No experimental company I talked too was interested under those conditions. Also the price was around 135k if memory serves.

So not much of an option.

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
tspear said:
As of a little over a tear ago, Austro is only available if the "factory" is involved. And the factory has to commit to a min purchase. If I recall it was for five planes worth. No experimental company I talked too was interested under those conditions. Also the price was around 135k if memory serves.
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Yikes?! Okay, well if someone is hellbent on burning Jet A then I suppose Deltahawk or a turbine are your (only) options. I still think Rotax, or dare I say, the existing Conti / Lyco crop are going to be hard to unseat at half the cost
 
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