Deltahawk - a modern GA engine

Yikes?! Okay, well if someone is hellbent on burning Jet A then I suppose Deltahawk or a turbine are your (only) options. I still think Rotax, or dare I say, the existing Conti / Lyco crop are going to be hard to unseat at half the cost

The turboprop STCs for 182s and 210s are wild looking. Have seen those rarely on the ramp and it’s just cool to hear them crank up. And those long ass noses on them to keep the W&B right.

Not practical but awesome looking and sounding.

First flight of the Cessna Caravan was in this week in 1982. That made me feel old. :)
 
I watched the video and he states that "TBO is determined by the FAA" which I don't think is true. Great concept and design but the price is way too high to be practical for the aircraft it is designed for.
 
Electric propulsion is on the way, would make this obsolete. But not for a year or two1

Uh, no. Battery technology only improves at a rate of about 1.5% storage capacity per year. We will all be dead long before the equivalent battery mass of a lycoming and 50 gallons of avgas - say 600 pounds - lets us fly electric at 180hp for 5 hours.
 
Uh, no. Battery technology only improves at a rate of about 1.5% storage capacity per year. We will all be dead long before the equivalent battery mass of a lycoming and 50 gallons of avgas - say 600 pounds - lets us fly electric at 180hp for 5 hours.
And even then it’ll still weigh as much when empty as it did when full.
 
Uh, no. Battery technology only improves at a rate of about 1.5% storage capacity per year. We will all be dead long before the equivalent battery mass of a lycoming and 50 gallons of avgas - say 600 pounds - lets us fly electric at 180hp for 5 hours.

You do not need 180HP anymore. That is what so many miss.

Tim
 
You will in Denver and anywhere west of it until you run out of big rocks...
That is gas engine thinking :D
A 200HP engine at sea level makes roughly 150 HP in Denver, and around 100HP at 10K altitude.
Compare that too an electric motor. A 80kw engine at sea level, is still produces 80kw at 5K feet in Denver, or 80kw at 10k msl....


Tim
 
That is gas engine thinking :D
A 200HP engine at sea level makes roughly 150 HP in Denver, and around 100HP at 10K altitude.

Wait, what? I thought the rule was 3% HP loss per 1k feet if it's naturally aspirated and much less if it's turbo?
 
I watched the video and he states that "TBO is determined by the FAA" which I don't think is true. Great concept and design but the price is way too high to be practical for the aircraft it is designed for.

The manufacturer can come up with a TBO, but the FAA has to approve it as part of the certification process. Proposing a 4,000 hour TBO (for example) with no previous field history is unlikely to get approval. If you read the ACs, the standard from the FAA for pistons is starting at 1200 hours and then it can get increased with continued field experience.

This has been the case for a long time. If you look at some engines that have a 1200 hour TBO, it's because they never got the field experience (or just weren't good enough) to justify higher TBOs. Examples include the early GTSIO-520s, TI(G)O-541s, etc. In more recent times, I seem to recall Theilert diesels started off at 1200 and have gone up.

The benefits that FADEC offers are there but in my opinion I'd rather have a simple mechanical system if a FADEC isn't required due to various vulnerabilities in the engine that a FADEC can protect from. And I love 2-stroke diesels that use ports instead of valves. The DeltaHawk design makes all the sense in the world for aviation. Hopefully they can certify it.
 
That is gas engine thinking :D
A 200HP engine at sea level makes roughly 150 HP in Denver, and around 100HP at 10K altitude.
Compare that too an electric motor. A 80kw engine at sea level, is still produces 80kw at 5K feet in Denver, or 80kw at 10k msl....

No, I said want the equivalent of 180 HP west of here. Yes, I usually get it from my 230 HP engine that isn’t making 230 HP.

Your assertion was that we could all get away with less power. No, we can’t, not with an aircraft full of batteries that don’t get any lighter, plus two fat dudes, in the mountains. 180 HP worth of flailing electric motor is going to be marginal up there at those weights.

That’s the real problem with electric light aircraft, you can’t manage useful load or climb margin by leaving fuel at home.

Maybe if they come up with some modular battery system, but then it won’t make it to the same first fuel stop a similarly weighted aircraft would.

The same 230 HP airplane making 180 or so, I also want loaded half full, meaning half of the usual load, and well below max gross weight.

Lower the power and carry batteries if you like up there. Light aircraft are already marginal. They’ll send a nice multi-turbine Blackhawk up to pull you out if you survive the crash. Haha.
 
"Less power" is never a good answer.
But it’s only less power when you’re down close to the trees and towers and stuff. You’ve got lots more power up there after you climb out.
 
But it’s only less power when you’re down close to the trees and towers and stuff. You’ve got lots more power up there after you climb out.

Sure, horsepower is a multi-faceted thing and it's more than just a single number. However when you reduce rated horsepower now you also reduce the number of airports that you can use. For most piston GA planes (especially smaller ones) that's an issue. If you're in a twin you've reduced your OEI performance in the altitudes where it matters most to most people. You've reduced your initial climb rate, where it matters most (unless you live in Denver and perhaps the lower HP turbo will do better than a higher HP N/A).

Never say never, but it's a very hard argument to say "Here, buy this engine! Sure it makes less rated horsepower but..."
 
And I love 2-stroke diesels that use ports instead of valves.

Why? When I raced two stroke motorcycles, the piston and rings would be worn out by the ports, even if chamfered nicely. I imagine a diesel's ports are smaller than a two stroke gas engine, but it still needs intake and exhaust ports. VW diesel engines run a very long time without much tinkering with good economy when turbo charged, and I think those had valves.
 
Why? When I raced two stroke motorcycles, the piston and rings would be worn out by the ports, even if chamfered nicely. I imagine a diesel's ports are smaller than a two stroke gas engine, but it still needs intake and exhaust ports. VW diesel engines run a very long time without much tinkering with good economy when turbo charged, and I think those had valves.

A part that's not there can't fail. If you look at the number of burned exhaust valves (which often lead to broken valves) on piston engines, it is a significant issue that has caused more than one crash... many more.

If you want to look at a durable ported piston design, simply look at the old 2-stroke Detroit diesels. Now they only used ports for the intake, not the exhaust, but it still worked well.
 
Why? When I raced two stroke motorcycles, the piston and rings would be worn out by the ports, even if chamfered nicely. I imagine a diesel's ports are smaller than a two stroke gas engine, but it still needs intake and exhaust ports. VW diesel engines run a very long time without much tinkering with good economy when turbo charged, and I think those had valves.

A 2 stroke diesel is not the same as a 2 stroke motorcycle. The 2 stroke detroits have been around for years and seem to have good durability.

The VW engines you're referring to were 4 strokes.
 
A part that's not there can't fail.
I've recently become mildly obsessed with Wankel engines.. one thing I seem to always hear about these is how crazy reliable they are, or rather, immune to catastrophic failure, due to the relatively few parts and consistent direction that everything is travelling in

The July issue of Flying magazine spoke straight to my geek-side with Peter Garrison's write up what's basically a "turbofan" engine but the core is a Wankel, with the compressor supercharging the air and the exhaust driving the fan. Rolls Royce owns the patent since 1996, but apparently NASA did some testing on this in the 1970s and (at the time) found that in no case was the Wankel-turbofan less efficient, and under ideal conditions it was actually 8% more efficient. Look for Peter Garrison technicalities and John Whurr

I can only imagine the looks you'd get at the FBO cruising in with a Wankel fan..

EDIT: Typo from speech to text
 
Guy I know back in IL built a Lancair with a rotary engine. Did the first flight. Couldn't keep the oil temp down.

I think he pulled it and put in Lycoming.
 
Guy I know back in IL built a Lancair with a rotary engine. Did the first flight. Couldn't keep the oil temp down.

I think he pulled it and put in Lycoming.
interesting. I wonder how other applications and in a Mazda for example they dealt with the oil temperature issues. I've read that one of the benefits of the Wankel is the ability to run very hot and have a high thermal efficiency as a result of that
 
I've recently become mildly obsessed with Wankel engines.. one thing I seem to always hear about these is how crazy reliable they are, or rather, immune to catastrophic failure, due to the relatively few parts and consistent direction that everything is travelling in

The July issue of Flying magazine spoke straight to my geek-side with Peter Garrison's write up what's basically a "turbofan" engine but the core is a Wankel, with the compressor supercharging the air and the exhaust driving the fan. Rolls Royce owns the patent since 1996, but apparently NASA did some testing on this in the 1970s and (at the time) found that in no case was the Wankel-turbofan less efficient, and under ideal conditions it was actually 8% more efficient. Look for Peter Garrison technicalities and John Whurr

I can only imagine the looks you'd get at the FBO cruising in with a Wankel fan..

EDIT: Typo from speech to text

Wankels are fun engines to drive (if you've never driven an RX-7, find one). I'd agree with an increased resistance to catastrophic failure, but they definitely also have longevity issues and aren't particularly efficient or emissions friendly compared to piston engines. The various seals required in Wankels do tend to go bad sooner and would result in poor TBOs. But, like you said, not catastrophic failures in those situations.

"Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler" comes to mind.
 
interesting. I wonder how other applications and in a Mazda for example they dealt with the oil temperature issues. I've read that one of the benefits of the Wankel is the ability to run very hot and have a high thermal efficiency as a result of that

Probably by having large oil coolers and not running as heavy of a duty cycle as an aircraft engine.

Anything can be cooled, it's just a question of how big of a cooler you want to put in and how much air you want to put over it.
 
The various seals required in Wankels do tend to go bad sooner and would result in poor TBOs. But, like you said, not catastrophic failures in those situations.
The Apex seal is the one you gotta watch. It's akin to a piston ring except that the engine develops more power as it fails, not less.
 
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The Apex seal is the one you gotta watch. It's akin to a piston ring except that the engine develops more power as it fails, not less.

I remember on the 3rd gen RX-7 the low coolant light was often known as the "Replace engine now" light.
 
I've recently become mildly obsessed with Wankel engines.. one thing I seem to always hear about these is how crazy reliable they are, or rather, immune to catastrophic failure, due to the relatively few parts and consistent direction that everything is travelling in

My stepdad had a love affair with those on the old Mazda rotary cars.

She took him for all his money and left him by the side of the road for dead, many times. Hahahaha.

Seriously. They failed constantly. I couldn’t tell you how but he needed a frequent flyer plan for tow trucks.
 
I've recently become mildly obsessed with Wankel engines.. one thing I seem to always hear about these is how crazy reliable they are, or rather, immune to catastrophic failure, due to the relatively few parts and consistent direction that everything is travelling in

The July issue of Flying magazine spoke straight to my geek-side with Peter Garrison's write up what's basically a "turbofan" engine but the core is a Wankel, with the compressor supercharging the air and the exhaust driving the fan. Rolls Royce owns the patent since 1996, but apparently NASA did some testing on this in the 1970s and (at the time) found that in no case was the Wankel-turbofan less efficient, and under ideal conditions it was actually 8% more efficient. Look for Peter Garrison technicalities and John Whurr

I can only imagine the looks you'd get at the FBO cruising in with a Wankel fan..

EDIT: Typo from speech to text

Who told you that rotaries were crazy reliable? I blew out an apex seal in my RX7, and that motor went from hero to zero in about 2 seconds flat.
 
I've read that one of the benefits of the Wankel is the ability to run very hot and have a high thermal efficiency as a result of that.

Sadly, this ability to run hot is offset by the very large area that the flame contacts, for the volume. Watch this - and he starts right off with this problem (and does not even mention increased heat transfer to the walls):

 
I think the Liquid Piston engine addresses that, by turning a Wankel inside-out, so it does not need apex seals anymore. All other problems remain that lead to poor thermal efficiency (contra Mr. Tantalum, unfortunately).

https://liquidpiston.com/technology/how-it-works/
I took a look at the video. It showed slots in the center housing between the chambers. If I'm not mistaken, those are for seals. Maybe they aren't called Apex seals and they aren't on the rotor, but seems to me that they serve a similar function.
 
Sadly, this ability to run hot is offset by the very large area that the flame contacts, for the volume. Watch this - and he starts right off with this problem (and does not even mention increased heat transfer to the walls):
I like that engineering guy, I've seen most of his video, but I think in a few of them he shows a little bias off the bat. With the flames exhausting out the back you can recover that energy via turbo, etc., or in the John Whurr Rolls Royce / NASA design by having that drive the turbine that drives the fan. The thermal efficiency thing I was referring not necessarily to them running hot, but the theoretical physics that the hotter you can burn something generally the more actually "work" you'll get out of it for the same given fuel input. Burning X lbs of gas at temp Y vs temp Z the hotter temp will produce more mechanical work. I know some of the newest airliner turbine engines have areas where the air is actually hotter than the melting points of the blades/vanes and thus use air channels blowing through the vanes to keep them within a safe operating temperature. I think the Wankel tends to struggle because of the "if it aint broken, don't fix it" thing. We know the traditional ICE and other than novelty there is little reason to really start from scratch with the Wankel. It is also known that they run better when under load for better seating of the seals and combustion, etc., so in many ways they are more appropriate in a plane where they sit at 75% power for most of their life vs a car at 20%-30% power with lots of city idling, etc.
 
Who told you that rotaries were crazy reliable? I blew out an apex seal in my RX7, and that motor went from hero to zero in about 2 seconds flat.
Anytime someone mentions Wankel's pro's the few parts are given as a benefit. No valves, push rods, etc., just a triangle flying around in a container. The Apex seal is the known weak link.. but you blow a valve or connecting rod you are also going hero to zero as well. Typically the Apex seals also don't catastrophically fail.. but that's just based on what I've heard

What I put a Wankel in my plane... probably not. But it's fun tech and good to geek out on
 
My stepdad had a love affair with those on the old Mazda rotary cars.
Did he ride them hard and put them away wet? Comparing a Mazda RX-7 vs a plane to gauge the appropriateness of a Wankel is somewhat dubious as they're built to different standards and needs and most people driving an RX-7 are not treating the same way we treat our Lycos/Contis. I wouldn't compare the diesel on my dad's sailboat to the diesel you get in a Diamond either
 
The thermal efficiency thing I was referring not necessarily to them running hot, but the theoretical physics that the hotter you can burn something generally the more actually "work" you'll get out of it for the same given fuel input.
I know what a thermal cycle is. In my days it was called "Carnot cycle". Its theoritical efficiency is proportional to the difference between the hot and cold side, in this case the combustion temperature and the atmosphere. So, the hotter the engine runs, the better is the maximum efficiency. The problem is the parasitic loss through the thermal conduction, because the hot gas contacts more chamber surface in a rotary. This loss offsets gains through running hot, with known materials.
 
I know what a thermal cycle is. In my days it was called "Carnot cycle". Its theoritical efficiency is proportional to the difference between the hot and cold side, in this case the combustion temperature and the atmosphere. So, the hotter the engine runs, the better is the maximum efficiency. The problem is the parasitic loss through the thermal conduction, because the hot gas contacts more chamber surface in a rotary. This loss offsets gains through running hot, with known materials.
thanks, that makes sense, and I should have been more clear that I was speaking from a theoretical side..
 
This thread makes me want to get some beater RX8 as a toy or airport car.. but I understand the RX8 reputation is even worse than the RX7s was.

Yeah, only 3 moving parts and the same number of power pulses as a V12. It's those damn seals sliding constantly and made out of some bizarre spaceman material.

Once those problems are solved... it still gets lousy fuel mileage and needs to rev super high to get power. It's not a great plane motor.

That liquid-power thing looked cool, and it seems to solve the "hot side, cold side" thing in rotaries, but it's the size of a dang grapefruit. Wake me when it makes hundreds of horses so I can applaud some dude putting one in an RV6 at my local airport. (then help him push it off of the taxiway as the teething issues are sorted out) :D
 
Did he ride them hard and put them away wet? Comparing a Mazda RX-7 vs a plane to gauge the appropriateness of a Wankel is somewhat dubious as they're built to different standards and needs and most people driving an RX-7 are not treating the same way we treat our Lycos/Contis. I wouldn't compare the diesel on my dad's sailboat to the diesel you get in a Diamond either

I don’t know how you’d ride an underpowered station wagon hard or put it away wet. But all three of them were PoSes, engine-wise.
 
This thread makes me want to get some beater RX8 as a toy or airport car.. but I understand the RX8 reputation is even worse than the RX7s was.

Boss’ RX8 blew the engine two months after it was out of warranty. He sold it as-is.
 
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